Smoke or BS in CT (B1G)?

[Chip]

The Big 10 will own the NYC market if this goes down IMO. People don't realize that there are a ton of Michigan and Penn State Alum in NYC. Throw in UConn and Rutgers and it's over.

I assure you, you have nothing to worry about. UConn will not be going to the B1G, and therefore, NYC is still open for business.

I also assure you that UConn's addition doesn't close NYC for business in other conferences, but there really isn't much point to that part of the discussion.

 

[PeteCalvin]

As a CT resident, I'd also like it if we didn't have crippling taxes with zero job and population growth as well.

I hear that ESPN expands their campus nearly every year. They must be employing half the state by now.

 

[WoadBlue]

Regardless of where Louisville is ranked, it is where they are going. ND fought to get Louisville in and ND does not want to be associated with academic skunks. Louisville is spending money on academics to improve their perception and quality. Also, the Carolina schools and VA had no issue with Louisville's academics (Nor did Syracuse, Pitt, FSU and Clemson), all while knowing UCOnn's status as well.

Yes, ND is very happy with Louisville in the ACC. First, it means ND is not totally isolated, because IN borders KY (and Louisville is the heart of what is known as Kentuckiana: basically the Louisville TV market, which includes several counties in southeastern IN). ND also had developed a fierce basketball rivalry with the Cards and a growing baseball rivalry. And ND likes the idea of football games at Louisville, because they will be essentially like ND playing at BT teams - in terms of geography. Louisville in the ACC makes it very easy for ND to play only 1 BT team per year.

As for academic rankings - Louisville is a school that until fairly recently was funded by the state as if it were merely a regional open admission university. Increased state funding, which now recognizes that KY is best served by dual top funding, means the UofL will have steady rise in academic rankings. The school's freshmen ACT scores have already risen, over about 5 years, from 22 to 25. And that is before increased funding and ACC membership could help improve such scores.

A UConn fan with sense (if such a thing exists) will be bothered that ND would prefer Louisville to UConn and will castigate UConn for its many failings, including the lawsuits. My guess is that ND looks at that mess much the same way that BC and I do: as proof that UConn and CT state leaders are like ambulance chasing lawyers and thus totally untrustworthy.

Beyond all that, Louisville got in ahead of UConn primarily for 3 reasons: Louisville has much more football history; Louisville, with much better facilities and more fans, has much more football upside; and because KY borders OH, IN, and IL, adding Louisville was a shot back at the brow of the Big Ten.

 

[kirbivore]

Well, if true, that didn't take long.

Not surprised, really.

The B1G has been beating the ACC to the punch every chance it gets.

This would lock up the NY market for the B1G.

Forgot about Notre Dame already?

 

[Btstimpy]

No college team meaningfully registers in the NYC market.

The concept that a UConn/Rutgers combo would "lock it up" is hilllllarious.

I'm not sure what creates the perception that a UConn/Rutgers combo owns the NYC market or what owning it really means. The Big East had the UConn/Rutgers combo along with Notre Dame/Syracuse/St. John's/Seton Hall, and it fell apart. So much for owning the NYC market. Are we to believe that some other smaller collection of these schools in another conference has a better chance of owning NYC? It's not a college sports town. The Big Ten will only add UConn or anyone else if they can get enough cable subcriber fees to make it worth their while.

 

[Scooch]

I'm not sure what creates the perception that a UConn/Rutgers combo owns the NYC market or what owning it really means. The Big East had the UConn/Rutgers combo along with Notre Dame/Syracuse/St. John's/Seton Hall, and it fell apart. So much for owning the NYC market. Are we to believe that some other smaller collection of these schools in another conference has a better chance of owning NYC? It's not a college sports town. The Big Ten will only add UConn or anyone else if they can get enough cable subcriber fees to make it worth their while.

Please don't introduce logic into this conversation, it has no place here.

 

[Toga]

And on a side note - the B12 taking West Virginia over Louisville remains a head scratcher to me.

Yes, ND is very happy with Louisville in the ACC. First, it means ND is not totally isolated, because IN borders KY (and Louisville is the heart of what is known as Kentuckiana: basically the Louisville TV market, which includes several counties in southeastern IN). ND also had developed a fierce basketball rivalry with the Cards and a growing baseball rivalry. And ND likes the idea of football games at Louisville, because they will be essentially like ND playing at BT teams - in terms of geography. Louisville in the ACC makes it very easy for ND to play only 1 BT team per year.

As for academic rankings - Louisville is a school that until fairly recently was funded by the state as if it were merely a regional open admission university. Increased state funding, which now recognizes that KY is best served by dual top funding, means the UofL will have steady rise in academic rankings. The school's freshmen ACT scores have already risen, over about 5 years, from 22 to 25. And that is before increased funding and ACC membership could help improve such scores.

A UConn fan with sense (if such a thing exists) will be bothered that ND would prefer Louisville to UConn and will castigate UConn for its many failings, including the lawsuits. My guess is that ND looks at that mess much the same way that BC and I do: as proof that UConn and CT state leaders are like ambulance chasing lawyers and thus totally untrustworthy.

Beyond all that, Louisville got in ahead of UConn primarily for 3 reasons: Louisville has much more football history; Louisville, with much better facilities and more fans, has much more football upside; and because KY borders OH, IN, and IL, adding Louisville was a shot back at the brow of the Big Ten.

 

[SmilinBob]

By getting back to what we've done for the past 50+ years beating them. Ben built the program up, and did it, Mac came along , and did the same. The problems started by Jake hiring on the cheap with Paul who was a great position coach, but not the person to be the head coach. Then the fiasco with Grob, but Doug started the road back, and Scott like Ben, and Mac before him, won't be satisfied with anything less then beating them.

I'm confused Bob...how does that help FSU and Clemson say yes to UConn?

 

[Scooch]

And on a side note - the B12 taking West Virginia over Louisville remains a head scratcher to me.

The timeline is pretty fascinating. The Big XII had spots to fill as they lost 4 schools, and invited West Virginia in the fall of 2011. At that moment WVU hadn't won less than 9 games the previous 6 seasons, including some big bowl wins and top 25 rankings. Louisville, meanwhile, was just in the early part of year 2 of Strong's rebuild after the Kragthorpe debacle.

So WVU was certainly the better football program at that moment in time. But Louisville had all of the facilities and market advantages (and the bonus of killer hoops) that ultimately made them attractive to the ACC, as well as being 400 miles closer to the Big XII footprint.

Picking WVU was a short-sighted decision (and one of the reasons I scoff when people suggest that there has been some well-crafted, master plan of conferences adding specific teams. Most of this is of-the-moment, reactionary decision making).

But here's what's particularly interesting... had the Big XII made the smarter choice and invited Louisville, then when Maryland bolted from the ACC the most likely choice of replacements would have come from West Virginia, UConn and Cincinnati. I really think the ACC would have gone with UConn. The lack of well-funded facilities, insignificant market, and hoops pedigree would have been a dagger for WVU, especially since their football program would have been another year off its peak. Cincy has the Ohio presence for recruiting, but I don't think that alone would be enough to catapult them past UConn (I mean it certainly wasn't when it came down to UConn and Louisville). So I think UConn would have gotten in, almost by default.

 

[Toga]

Good post. Not sure though about UConn over WV in that scenario given the need at the time to satisfy the football needs of the Florida States and Clemsons at the time.

The timeline is pretty fascinating. The Big XII had spots to fill as they lost 4 schools, and invited West Virginia in the fall of 2011. At that moment WVU hadn't won less than 9 games the previous 6 seasons, including some big bowl wins and top 25 rankings. Louisville, meanwhile, was just in the early part of year 2 of Strong's rebuild after the Kragthorpe debacle.

So WVU was certainly the better football program at that moment in time. But Louisville had all of the facilities and market advantages (and the bonus of killer hoops) that ultimately made them attractive to the ACC, as well as being 400 miles closer to the Big XII footprint.

Picking WVU was a short-sighted decision (and one of the reasons I scoff when people suggest that there has been some well-crafted, master plan of conferences adding specific teams. Most of this is of-the-moment, reactionary decision making).

But here's what's particularly interesting... had the Big XII made the smarter choice and invited Louisville, then when Maryland bolted from the ACC the most likely choice of replacements would have come from West Virginia, UConn and Cincinnati. I really think the ACC would have gone with UConn. The lack of well-funded facilities, insignificant market, and hoops pedigree would have been a dagger for WVU, especially since their football program would have been another year off its peak. Cincy has the Ohio presence for recruiting, but I don't think that alone would be enough to catapult them past UConn (I mean it certainly wasn't when it came down to UConn and Louisville). So I think UConn would have gotten in, almost by default.

 

[WoadBlue]

And on a side note - the B12 taking West Virginia over Louisville remains a head scratcher to me.

I would bet that the internet rumors that Fox wanted WVU are basically true. I can't see Texas preferring WVU, because Texas was flirting with Pitt as part of the talks to get ND to go Big 12 the way it eventually did with the ACC. Texas would have known that Louisville would have been more appealing to ND than WVU.

But then again, maybe Dodds and Texas knew that if Pitt were in the ACC, there was 0 chance the Big 12 could entice ND. And thus the matter would have been one of taking WVU because it had more football history and a larger stadium and larger football fan base, and because WVU is a flagship state university.

 

[WoadBlue]

Good post. Not sure though about UConn over WV in that scenario given the need at the time to satisfy the football needs of the Florida States and Clemsons at the time.

Correct. The paramount need for the ACC in replacing Maryland was football strength and fans. Louisville has more football history over the past 25 years that Maryland, and Louisville has more football fans and a much nicer stadium. If Louisville had not been available, WVU would have provided that, as well as an historic rivalry: the Backyard Brawl.

 

[Scooch]

I would bet that the internet rumors that Fox wanted WVU are basically true. I can't see Texas preferring WVU, because Texas was flirting with Pitt as part of the talks to get ND to go Big 12 the way it eventually did with the ACC. Texas would have known that Louisville would have been more appealing to ND than WVU.

But then again, maybe Dodds and Texas knew that if Pitt were in the ACC, there was 0 chance the Big 12 could entice ND. And thus the matter would have been one of taking WVU because it had more football history and a larger stadium and larger football fan base, and because WVU is a flagship state university.

I don't care what internet rumors have been floated, or what people think they know, but ND was never, ever, ever going to join the Big 12. The concept is laughable on it's face.

 

[Scooch]

Good post. Not sure though about UConn over WV in that scenario given the need at the time to satisfy the football needs of the Florida States and Clemsons at the time.

Definitely could have been, I was just spitballing. I forgot that WVU was still very good in the fall of 2012, that might have been all that was needed in the Short Term Thinking Theater that is college realignment.

 

[WoadBlue]

I don't care what internet rumors have been floated, or what people think they know, but ND was never, ever, ever going to join the Big 12. The concept is laughable on it's face.

If you know my posts, from many years back, you will known that I have been saying for a decade that ND would be in the ACC eventually. You also would know that I always laughed at the thought of ND in the Big 12.

But Texas and Dodds were trying hard to get ND to make that move, and talking to Pitt about joining the Big 12 was part of the Texas plan.

 

[shantydaze]

Forgot about Notre Dame already?

The B1G refused to capitulate to ND's demands for football independence. While I believe the ACC got much better teams in the expansion, I do not consider the partial membership of ND as one of those teams until and unless it joins the conference fully.

The real question is what ND would have done

I'm not sure what creates the perception that a UConn/Rutgers combo owns the NYC market or what owning it really means. The Big East had the UConn/Rutgers combo along with Notre Dame/Syracuse/St. John's/Seton Hall, and it fell apart. So much for owning the NYC market. Are we to believe that some other smaller collection of these schools in another conference has a better chance of owning NYC? It's not a college sports town. The Big Ten will only add UConn or anyone else if they can get enough cable subcriber fees to make it worth their while.

The B1G does not care whether it "owns" the NYC market. As you point out, it just cared whether it could force the BTN onto NYC's basic cable, which it now has. Is that enough to compensate for bringing in an embarrassing program like Rutgers, we will see. From my perch in B1G country, I have not seen a lot of enthusiasm for the watering down of the conference except from some alums living in the NYC/DC areas. There is an understanding, however, that the moves were done purely for business reasons.

What I would find to be interesting is whether adding a school would affect the cult-like devotion some B1G fans have for Jim Delany. It is amazing how many people think he can do no wrong and then ignore his missteps. "Leaders" and "Legends"? Really? Also, the willful blindness these same fans have over the issues with the conference. There are some that still believe UNC, Virginia and Georgia Tech are still in play because who would turn done an invite to the B1G (even though the rumors are that they did)?

As an alum of both a B1G school and ACC school (thank god), I am a fan of both conferences and want them both to be successful. I reserve my hatred for the $EC and its culture of corruption.

Rather than UConn, which does not offer any football cachet or new markets, if two more schools have to be added, I would like them to come from the XII. Obviously, the Hope Diamond in the mix is Texas. They are an AAU school and have a lot in common with B1G schools. Because of the migration of its alums, I do not believe Texas will join any eastern conference, whether the B1G or ACC. Instead, if the XII falls apart, I believe it will move to the Pac and have the LHN integrated into the regional Pac networks.

If Texas does not join, I do not believe the B1G will accept any of the other Texas schools. This leaves Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, Kansas State and Iowa State. Iowa State is out because there is no reason to have two schools from the same state. Only Kansas is an AAU member, which at one point was a consideration for new schools (Nebraska was a member at the time of the invite and was booted out, Rutgers and Maryland are both members). Kansas does nothing to boost football though. Oklahoma would boost football, but is not an AAU member. It has also indicated it does not want to be separated from Texas. In the end, adding those two schools would do a lot more for the conference than UConn. It would also necessitate Purdue moving to the East so each division (if they still need to exist) would be nicely split by time zone.

For the ACC, I would not mind adding UConn as it fits in the footprint. I am just not sure it adds anything from a market or football perspective. If Tulane could get its athletics in better shape, I would love to see it in the conference. A good school and great location to travel for games. The ACC has enough of a presence in Florida that it would make no sense to add one of the directional schools. Cincy and Temple do not excite me from either an academic or athletic standpoint. Which leads me back to UConn as a default addition if needed.

In the end, I would be surprised to see any conference make any additional moves until the play-off has been running for a couple of years and we have better handle on the $$$ and access.

 

[Scooch]

If you know my posts, from many years back, you will known that I have been saying for a decade that ND would be in the ACC eventually. You also would know that I always laughed at the thought of ND in the Big 12.

But Texas and Dodds were trying hard to get ND to make that move, and talking to Pitt about joining the Big 12 was part of the Texas plan.

I hear ya. Just goes to show how powerful delusion is. ND in the Big XII... hahahahahahaha.

 

[cuseguy]

I'm not sure what creates the perception that a UConn/Rutgers combo owns the NYC market or what owning it really means. The Big East had the UConn/Rutgers combo along with Notre Dame/Syracuse/St. John's/Seton Hall, and it fell apart. So much for owning the NYC market. Are we to believe that some other smaller collection of these schools in another conference has a better chance of owning NYC? It's not a college sports town. The Big Ten will only add UConn or anyone else if they can get enough cable subcriber fees to make it worth their while.

Thing is, the NYC market and the Big East falling apart are different issues.

UConn in the ACC would just make the ACC's presence stronger in that area. It wouldn't "lock up" NY.

I'm also confused why conferences are trying to kill each other off. Shouldn't conferences be working together? What good would it serve if there's only a few strong conferences?

Just another dark side lately in college sports.

 

[cpatrocks]

 

[TerryD]

I don't care what internet rumors have been floated, or what people think they know, but ND was never, ever, ever going to join the Big 12. The concept is laughable on it's face.

ND was looking for a partial deal with either the Big 12 or the ACC. It wanted out of the AAC, pronto.

It was going to sign a partial deal somewhere.

Texas and ND are pretty chummy and ND wants a Southwestern presence. If the ACC had not given the partial deal, Deloss Dodds would have made sure the Big 12 did.

Now, I think that ND used the Big 12 talks to leverage the ACC into a partial deal. The East Coast and Southeast recruiting grounds are definitely where ND wanted to be.

But, if the ACC had not blinked, ND would have likely signed a partial deal with the Big 12.

It was not going to stay in the AAC, was not going to join any conference full time and was going to use the Big East/C7 as a last resort.

 

[Scooch]

ND was looking for a partial deal with either the Big 12 or the ACC. It wanted out of the AAC, pronto.

It was going to sign a partial deal somewhere.

Texas and ND are pretty chummy and ND wants a Southwestern presence. If the ACC had not given the partial deal, Deloss Dodds would have made sure the Big 12 did.

Now, I think that ND used the Big 12 talks to leverage the ACC into a partial deal. The East Coast and Southeast recruiting grounds are definitely where ND wanted to be.

But, if the ACC had not blinked, ND would have likely signed a partial deal with the Big 12.

It was not going to stay in the AAC, was not going to join any conference full time and was going to use the Big East/C7 as a last resort.

You're putting way too much stock into "recruiting grounds".

So how exactly were ND alums going to react when your AD told them that this was their upcoming basketball schedule and your home for all sports aside from football?:

Texas
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Iowa State
Baylor
Kansas
Kansas State
TCU
West Virginia

Come on. If for some reason the ACC balked at admitting ND with the 5 game football commitment then you know what ND would have done? Maintained total football independence and joined up with the new Big East for hoops and other sports. They weren't sending all their non-football sports to Manhattan, Kansas and Lubbock, Texas.

 

[Hoo's That]

I would bet that Texas is well aware that if it were to want a deal like ND's, 5/8ths membership in football, that Swofford would back its desire.

I don't know about you, Woad, but I'd make that deal w/Bevo in a heartbeat.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Definitely could have been, I was just spitballing. I forgot that WVU was still very good in the fall of 2012, that might have been all that was needed in the Short Term Thinking Theater that is college realignment.

id think cincinnati may have been in front as well.

still think they are.

 

[Scooch]

id think cincinnati may have been in front as well.

still think they are.

I'm not sure of that. They seemed to be an also-ran when it came down to Louisville and UConn a couple years ago. Not sure much has changed since then to leapfrog them over UConn. But what do I know, if they're 3-1 and ranked #24 the next time the ACC needs to add a team they'll probably get in.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I'm not sure of that. They seemed to be an also-ran when it came down to Louisville and UConn a couple years ago. Not sure much has changed since then to leapfrog them over UConn. But what do I know, if they're 3-1 and ranked #24 the next time the ACC needs to add a team they'll probably get in.

who knows.

im all about strengthening geography and to me this is easy.

lville/cincy. cincy/lville same thing who cares.

its southern ohio/northern kentucky...tv and recruits.

storz is useless, they already got NYC/NE.

with cincy you get those tv markets and a historically* better football team.


*just by virtue of them having a history.









shouldve grabbed rutgers.