Stephen Bailey to talk SU Football on Packer & Durham next

[AngryOtto]

Yes, you nailed it. SYR's first 22 are usually able to compete with most teams. Where we lose it is when the 2nd, 3rd and 4th teamers are forced to play. They are not up to the level of other teams' backups. You also see it in the 4th quarters, our starters are worn down from playing so much and not getting some in -game rest or breathers because the backups are not ready. For as bad as the team was last year, we were in most games for 3 quarters. It was the 4th quarters where the dam broke and we got blown out.

To me the fourth quarter blowouts was do more to our D playing a majority of the game then lack of depth at the two deep. The offense was so bad last year and D never got a break.

 

[AngryOtto]

I remember the Nebraska fan input, but I still think a lot of our OL problems would have been there irrespective of the OL coach. The line basically needed a complete rebuild of the 2 deep due to issues over the prior 3-4 years before he ever stepped foot on campus. Career ending injuries, recruits that didn’t pan out, imbalanced recruiting numbers year by year, etc. Dungey’s athleticism helped to hide those problems but with Tommy not being as mobile it just put a larger magnifying glass on it.

The Oline was not that good before Cav he just finished off the unit. Similar to when the team was starting to go down when Robinson took over and then he just destroyed the program.

 

[RandomGuy]

Agree, although its hard to believe that a career O line coach with success all of a sudden forgot how to coach. He knows O line play but I think he's at a point of his career where he's not willing to adjust. Success can lead to stubborness. Our lineman are not that bad. They just werent developed. Collectively Cav, the o line and the scheme was bad for each other. Cav just didnt mesh with the staff and players. It caused a lot of disfunction. It got to the point where lineman lost fundamentals and basic principles. Mainly with pass pro and blitz pick ups. Schmidt will bring a new energy and focus.

I agree with some of this. The line Lynch developed(minus Koda) was pretty good in 18. Teams were scared to blitz Mr. Eric Dungey. He"d make you pay. There may have been an overcalculation on our blitz pickup, and more focus on the benefits that tempo might provide. Took us 8 games to figure blitz PU, with a pocket passer in 2019. Overall offensive philosophy or oline coach? Beats me.

I do think Cav had his line quit on him, in Nebraska. While the fans may have been struggling with the invention of the forward pass? Lol. (It was going to look different) There were some moments... A 5 win Minnesota team destroyed Nebraska.(they beat 3 g5 teams, Illinois and nebraska) Online forums rumored that Minnesota Dline players called Nebraska's Oline, "off balanced dancing bears." The easiest line they faced all year. Forums should not be trusted. One disgruntled fan tweeted all of the oline failures for that day. Again. Not a full representation, but clips like this 3 on 7 look too familiar. Nose bull rushes, and weak side both get there easily.



https://twitter.com/Neb_Films/status/930253938049380352?s=19

 

[Cusefan69]

Yeah coach Cav had some challenges including a very sick wife. I would be curious to know the entire injury list of the oline these last 5 years. My educated guess is it was a MASH unit. There is no unit on a football team that requires more continuity than the oline and there has been little of that. I agree with Money that Cav didn't suddenly forget how to coach but its clear for a number of reasons that a change was necessary.
Also folks let's not act like we were running top notch oline before Cav or Dino. Since 2005 we have had maybe 4/5 years of average to a bit above average oline play. It is in most years not a strength but closer to weakness.
As an aside I also remember some on the board saying that TDs throwing was elite compared to ED and would have a positive impact on the oline compared to ED. I do think our line will be better this year but Devito has to be able to use his legs for us. He did that in spot play his first year and since has not. If TD can't move the chains with both his arm and legs, then Dino has to roll with the new guy.

 

[money3189]

I agree with some of this. The line Lynch developed(minus Koda) was pretty good in 18. Teams were scared to blitz Mr. Eric Dungey. He"d make you pay. There may have been an overcalculation on our blitz pickup, and more focus on the benefits that tempo might provide. Took us 8 games to figure blitz PU, with a pocket passer in 2019. Overall offensive philosophy or oline coach? Beats me.

I do think Cav had his line quit on him, in Nebraska. While the fans may have been struggling with the invention of the forward pass? Lol. (It was going to look different) There were some moments... A 5 win Minnesota team destroyed Nebraska.(they beat 3 g5 teams, Illinois and nebraska) Online forums rumored that Minnesota Dline players called Nebraska's Oline, "off balanced dancing bears." The easiest line they faced all year. Forums should not be trusted. One disgruntled fan tweeted all of the oline failures for that day. Again. Not a full representation, but clips like this 3 on 7 look too familiar. Nose bull rushes, and weak side both get there easily.



https://twitter.com/Neb_Films/status/930253938049380352?s=19

Yes 2018 was good but keep in mind he didnt have to develop them. We had multple year starters in Conway, Martin, Roberts and Adams. A red shirt soph Servais and a senior Dungey. Cav didnt have to do much his first year.

 

[kcsu]

Yeah coach Cav had some challenges including a very sick wife. I would be curious to know the entire injury list of the oline these last 5 years. My educated guess is it was a MASH unit. There is no unit on a football team that requires more continuity than the oline and there has been little of that. I agree with Money that Cav didn't suddenly forget how to coach but its clear for a number of reasons that a change was necessary.
Also folks let's not act like we were running top notch oline before Cav or Dino. Since 2005 we have had maybe 4/5 years of average to a bit above average oline play. It is in most years not a strength but closer to weakness.
As an aside I also remember some on the board saying that TDs throwing was elite compared to ED and would have a positive impact on the oline compared to ED. I do think our line will be better this year but Devito has to be able to use his legs for us. He did that in spot play his first year and since has not. If TD can't move the chains with both his arm and legs, then Dino has to roll with the new guy.

Regardless of the past Cav wasn't a good coach for SU. Was its Dino O. Injuries, or a lack of talent the results were pathetic.
My sense is that Dinos O is red and rotten. The RPO is run by Pee wee teams. Teams have learned to force the O to beat you by making them choose their weakest option.
If an O cant take advantage of that its game over.
A running QB isnt a luxury in Dinos O its a necessity. Tommy needs to be able to run or he cant sell the O.
The fact that Dino hired an excellent oline coach will help a ton. If the oline can improve to an average rating we have a chance to win 5-7. If not Dino will be an assistant coach for the remainder of his career.

 

[SoBristol]

Yes 2018 was good but keep in mind he didnt have to develop them. We had multple year starters in Conway, Martin, Roberts and Adams. A red shirt soph Servais and a senior Dungey. Cav didnt have to do much his first year.

That is true, but he did not have much to work with in either 2019 or 2020. That was due to injuries and to poor recruiting by the staff before Cav. OL recruiting was better under Cav, and the new guy should benefit.

not defending Cav — it was time for a change, but let’s get the story right.

 

[SoBristol]

Regardless of the past Cav wasn't a good coach for SU. Was its Dino O. Injuries, or a lack of talent the results were pathetic.
My sense is that Dinos O is red and rotten. The RPO is run by Pee wee teams. Teams have learned to force the O to beat you by making them choose their weakest option.
If an O cant take advantage of that its game over.
A running QB isnt a luxury in Dinos O its a necessity. Tommy needs to be able to run or he cant sell the O.
The fact that Dino hired an excellent oline coach will help a ton. If the oline can improve to an average rating we have a chance to win 5-7. If not Dino will be an assistant coach for the remainder of his career.

Not just the OL. We need improvements across the board. Pass rush; WRs, TE, young LBs need to get better. QB play.
I agree about the running QB. If you can’t get running to provide balance, the opposing defenses will blitz TD and we know how that turns out.

 

[Chip]

I agree...if TD starts out 0-2 we'll see a new QB start for Albany. These are two must win games and going 0-2 will have Dino's back against the wall.

If Shredder starts and goes 0-2 I think he would be benched too.

A 1-1 start is a push.

I think both will play though. However the 2nd string might only get very limited action.

If we start 0-2, Dino can do whatever he wants, because hardly anyone will be watching.

 

[Chris02M]

TD will not be there for 0-2. I suspect that if he does not move the ball in the first half of Ohio he’s gone. DB knows it’s a must win season. TD will have the shortest leash ever.

it all depends on how the school is doing financial after all the added cost of covid testing plus the lack of fans in the dome since 2019 march

 

[RandomGuy]

Yes 2018 was good but keep in mind he didnt have to develop them. We had multple year starters in Conway, Martin, Roberts and Adams. A red shirt soph Servais and a senior Dungey. Cav didnt have to do much his first year.

Agree. Why i mentioned Lynch developed them. (Plus Koda). Not a slam on Cav. Run game cohesion/improvement was on Cav, imo.

 

[orangepassion]

Regardless of the past Cav wasn't a good coach for SU. Was its Dino O. Injuries, or a lack of talent the results were pathetic.
My sense is that Dinos O is red and rotten. The RPO is run by Pee wee teams. Teams have learned to force the O to beat you by making them choose their weakest option.
If an O cant take advantage of that its game over.
A running QB isnt a luxury in Dinos O its a necessity. Tommy needs to be able to run or he cant sell the O.
The fact that Dino hired an excellent oline coach will help a ton. If the oline can improve to an average rating we have a chance to win 5-7. If not Dino will be an assistant coach for the remainder of his career.

Agree the offense has been very predictable. I was at one of the games 2 years ago and calling practically every play. A good OL obviously always helps, but especially when your OL isn't good, you need to be creative. I like to bash Rutgers, but at least they were trying to make things happen on offense last year with limited talent. We were content to keep with the same 3 plays most of the year.

 

[kcsu]

Agree the offense has been very predictable. I was at one of the games 2 years ago and calling practically every play. A good OL obviously always helps, but especially when your OL isn't good, you need to be creative. I like to bash Rutgers, but at least they were trying to make things happen on offense last year with limited talent. We were content to keep with the same 3 plays most of the year.

Dino is not an innovator nor a good play caller. He is a CEO type not a good game day coach.

 

[RandomGuy]

That is true, but he did not have much to work with in either 2019 or 2020. That was due to injuries and to poor recruiting by the staff before Cav. OL recruiting was better under Cav, and the new guy should benefit.

not defending Cav — it was time for a change, but let’s get the story right.

Perhaps, but it could also be developement. I'll guess 3 pre Cav linemen recruits start this year. Bleich was a transfer like Koda, developed elsewhere, so a wash. I'm guessing Bergeron will be the only Cav recruit starting.

 

[Trueblue25]

To me Dino hasn’t proved he can win unfortunately. But I believe he’s capable.

2018 was great, but squandered to the point in the following seasons where it’s entirely now credible to shift credit for that season more towards our experienced vets than coaching. And no, HCSS was a trainwreck and this is not at all to his credit.

Dino’s gotta string together consecutive decent .500 or above years. Its so obvious that the narrative that CNY doesn’t care about Orange football and SU can’t financially support a credible ACC program is horse crap.

Results of 2018 -
-10,000+ new season ticket holders
-Social media following increased over 40%
-alumni began to come back
-The mayor named a day dedicated to officially announcing the start of Cuse football.
- large donations began to reappear
- wildhack cracked open the vault another few inches.

thats after 1 good year in 20 years of kicks to the balls.

What happens after 2-3 consecutive bowl years? I think Dino’s capable.

We are not the low floor low ceiling program people say we are to justify sub par results

The fact remains true that Syracuse NY remains a college sports town who just needs its football team to love it back.

 

[money3189]

That is true, but he did not have much to work with in either 2019 or 2020. That was due to injuries and to poor recruiting by the staff before Cav. OL recruiting was better under Cav, and the new guy should benefit.

not defending Cav — it was time for a change, but let’s get the story right.

Weve talked about this subject relentlessly on here. but I have a different view and perspective than you. Its definitely nice to coach your own recruits but part of coaching is developing what you have. That's what other line coaches have to do when they join new teams. It happens every year. 2016 and 2017 lines didnt have any star power at all but they were still serviceable. The lineman we had on the recent teams should have been serviceable but they were historically bad. There were things fundamentally and schematically wrong that I didnt see as much with the lines in previous years. 2020 is the only season I gave Cav a pass on. Great guy and coach but it didnt work out for him at SU for a variety of reasons.

 

[kcsu]

To me Dino hasn’t proved he can win unfortunately. But I believe he’s capable.

2018 was great, but squandered to the point in the following seasons where it’s entirely now credible to shift credit for that season more towards our experienced vets than coaching. And no, HCSS was a trainwreck and this is not at all to his credit.

Dino’s gotta string together consecutive decent .500 or above years. Its so obvious that the narrative that CNY doesn’t care about Orange football and SU can’t financially support a credible ACC program is horse crap.

Results of 2018 -
-10,000+ new season ticket holders
-Social media following increased over 40%
-alumni began to come back
-The mayor named a day dedicated to officially announcing the start of Cuse football.
- large donations began to reappear
- wildhack cracked open the vault another few inches.

thats after 1 good year in 20 years of kicks to the balls.

What happens after 2-3 consecutive bowl years? I think Dino’s capable.

We are not the low floor low ceiling program people say we are to justify sub par results

The fact remains true that Syracuse NY remains a college sports town who just needs its football team to love it back.

Spot on. Great post. There is no reason that we cant be a bowl team every year. None If we can produce a consistant winning program the region will support the team. They have for the last 60 years. If Dino doesnt win this year there is no reason to stay the course. There a plenty of coaches including one at Kent State that would die for the opportunity to coach SU.

 

[Trueblue25]

Spot on. Great post. There is no reason that we cant be a bowl team every year. None If we can produce a consistant winning program the region will support the team. They have for the last 60 years. If Dino doesnt win this year there is no reason to stay the course. There a plenty of coaches including one at Kent State that would die for the opportunity to coach SU.

247 lists Kent State as the 10th most difficult offense in college football to plan against.


Another shot to whatever ego may exist on the Hill for orange is the new fast

 

[RandomGuy]

To me Dino hasn’t proved he can win unfortunately. But I believe he’s capable.

2018 was great, but squandered to the point in the following seasons where it’s entirely now credible to shift credit for that season more towards our experienced vets than coaching. And no, HCSS was a trainwreck and this is not at all to his credit.

Dino’s gotta string together consecutive decent .500 or above years. Its so obvious that the narrative that CNY doesn’t care about Orange football and SU can’t financially support a credible ACC program is horse crap.

Results of 2018 -
-10,000+ new season ticket holders
-Social media following increased over 40%
-alumni began to come back
-The mayor named a day dedicated to officially announcing the start of Cuse football.
- large donations began to reappear
- wildhack cracked open the vault another few inches.

thats after 1 good year in 20 years of kicks to the balls.

What happens after 2-3 consecutive bowl years? I think Dino’s capable.

We are not the low floor low ceiling program people say we are to justify sub par results

The fact remains true that Syracuse NY remains a college sports town who just needs its football team to love it back.

Agreed.

I think there was a miscalculation In 2019. A line good enough for Dungey, was not the line a pocket passer needed, or anyone else not named Houdini. They were killing our guard/tackle communication. Pass pro DID finally improve, the last 4 games, which tells me they could have been better.

2020? Lol. A starter limping along. 4 on the 2 deep injured, and Bleich hosed by the NCAA. Incoming frosh not ready, as you'd expect. I mean. Maybe one or 2 aren't available, but 5?
TD, Trill, Iffy, Cisco, Adams, Howard not available... lol

I ABSOLUTELY think our line will be better. Thats not a Cav knock. I just can't believe we'll lose that many to injury again. Whatever the staff learned about the team in 2019? You can be sure they worked on it for 2020. We just didn't see it, because so many guys weren't available.

I'm looking forward to being pleasantly surprised, this year.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I hope he is retained.

This Program needs stability.

Losing is stable

 

[kcsu]

247 lists Kent State as the 10th most difficult offense in college football to plan against.


Another shot to whatever ego may exist on the Hill for orange is the new fast

Lewis was the O and he also had a great way with the guys and with recruits. Im not sure if JW would give him a shot as that might be odd at best because of Dino but if he did i think that he would thrive at Syracuse

 

[Trueblue25]

Agreed.

I think there was a miscalculation In 2019. A line good enough for Dungey, was not the line a pocket passer needed, or anyone else not named Houdini. They were killing our guard/tackle communication. Pass pro DID finally improve, the last 4 games, which tells me they could have been better.

2020? Lol. A starter limping along. 4 on the 2 deep injured, and Bleich hosed by the NCAA. Incoming frosh not ready, as you'd expect. I mean. Maybe one or 2 aren't available, but 5?
TD, Trill, Iffy, Cisco, Adams, Howard not available... lol

I ABSOLUTELY think our line will be better. Thats not a Cav knock. I just can't believe we'll lose that many to injury again. Whatever the staff learned about the team in 2019? You can be sure they worked on it for 2020. We just didn't see it, because so many guys weren't available.

I'm looking forward to being pleasantly surprised, this year.

I think we had a culture issue in the offseason heading into 2019 too. These kids thought they had another ranked year coming to them and weren’t nearly as hungry as the graduated vets

 

[OrangePA]

Losing is stable

10 wins and a bowl victory is not losing.

 

[syrBossHogg]

10 wins and a bowl victory is not losing.

But 4 losing seasons is

 

[cusefan88]

My only contribution is that Dino is not standing pat. He's trying to make changes. Just look at the coaches we've brought in. Gilbert, White, West, Schmidt, Achuff, Samuel. That's like 50% new staff in two seasons. I trust him because he's making the moves to shift things and get back to where he needs to be.