Talked with a Big East Insider

[All4SU]

No.

You dont get it.

Like it or not the does compete nationally.

WVU beat a good Clemson team in the Orange Bowl.

Having the chance to play on that stage is national and very appealing.

I can assure you that if Temple goes to the Orange Bowl Philly will get interested.

Love your loyalty OPA, but I think the point the others here are making is that WVU is gone, SU is gone, Pitt is gone. A Big East Automatic Bid is almost assuredly gone. So the Orange Bowl really isn't in play like it would have been in the BE up until now. The BE has taken a step backwards. They have become a lesser conference, and it will be a challenge for teams -- especially teams like Temple -- to capture the imagination of new fans.

 

[HtownOrange]

Just a few obersvations from a media observer with no more experience than flipping channels:

- NBC probably wants the Big East because that is the best of what is available at this time. The five big boy conferences are locked up and NBC is not likely wanting to wait. The lesster conferences are nowhere near th level of exposure as the Big East teams provide, Best of the rest, if you will.
- I think that NBC needs a name brand product, not necessarily the best product, but something people know and are aware of
- The Big East covers all time zones
- The Big East has volume, lots of game to show
- We are focusing on football (which really has lost most of its reputation and potency) but as a conference, the Big East is otherwise respectable, lots of sports and lots of teams.
- Big East hoops is very valuable, very deep and has volume! The Big East did lose a lot of its heart in losing Syracuse (this has been noted by many writers, bloggers, reporters, etc.). Losing Pitt and WVU did not help in hoops either, but the remaing teams are very notable, entertaining and popular, at least in their regions.
- Lacrosse is coming on strong, especially up and down the east coast. This is a good spring offering, along with Big East baseball.
- Paying the Big East a decent amount is still less expensive that the two main options NBC has RIGHT NOW; namely buy out an existing contract for which they would likely pay a premium; and, waiting. Either would cost far more in the long run than developing the NBC Sports name. Taking a financial hit now for a payday in the long run usually works.
- Also, NBC would be in a much better position to prove to the other conferences once their deals end that NBC can provide coverage and quality to the point that NBC will be a player, not the new kid.
- There will be a few winners in the Big East. Theyw ill probably go to 9 game schedules and there will be winners a losers. Winners build fan bases. The North East is overlooked because they have not produced a focused winner. Also, having lived in Florida, a lot of residents are NOT Florida, FSU or Miami fans. Most residents are transplants and HATE the aforementioned three and will watch someone else. Then there are the numbers, UCF and USF are huge schools, they will be building large fan bases - this is a long term deal, but it will not be long before their fan base exceeds Miami's. They are also in large metro areas.
- Houston and SMU have been winners and can build respectable fanbases. Living in Houston, UT, TAMU, LSU seem to have teh largest followings, but people want a local team. If Houston can win again, they will have a decent following. I've heard the old times brag on SMU 's history (as well as rag on their downfall) so there is an under current of support.
- A side benefit of FL and TX is that many young people are tired of 2 or 3 choices and are willing to pick another team.
- Houston and Dallas are made up largely of transplants that are glad cheer on anyone other than the historical 2-3 favored teams

Anyway, NBC just wants to get in the game, start small and grow. The Big East looks like it will be the beneficiary.

 

[arbitragegls]

+1 HtownOrange...it is not necessarily fact of how good the BE is; it is how much content will it provide NBC (as posted previously). NBC will pay a premium for the BE. It most likely will not meet the per team dollars of the ACC but will either be near or above the previous ESPN offer. Note that Notre Dame is tied in a way to NBC and I have always had a feeling the rejection of the ESPN contact a year ago was a Notre Dame-NBC collusion.

 

[HtownOrange]

+1 HtownOrange...it is not necessarily fact of how good the BE is; it is how much content will it provide NBC (as posted previously). NBC will pay a premium for the BE. It most likely will not meet the per team dollars of the ACC but will either be near or above the previous ESPN offer. Note that Notre Dame is tied in a way to NBC and I have always had a feeling the rejection of the ESPN contact a year ago was a Notre Dame-NBC collusion.

I tend to agree that ND had a lot more influence on the rejected ESPN offer. Swarbrick is no fool, no matter what people think of him, he plays his cards close to his vest and has excellent realtioins with all of his counterparts, both ADs and conference chairs. He would make Big East ADs aware of a potential NBC deal to keep the Irish independent.

 

[Chip]

No.

You dont get it.

Like it or not the does compete nationally.

WVU beat a good Clemson team in the Orange Bowl.

Having the chance to play on that stage is national and very appealing.

I can assure you that if Temple goes to the Orange Bowl Philly will get interested.

As someone who married into a family of Philly fanatics, I do agree that Philly, moreso than other city I've seen, really does rally around anything Philly. I've often wondered if that's because of the lack of championships, that makes them starving for it. Other than the Phillies in 2008, it's been a long dry period.

I think they would rally around Temple, to a point. I believe KingOtto is right that unless Temple's success will translate into the adult dinner table of college football in some fashion, even the starved for championship Philly fans might not be all that interested. They are going to make sure it's major league, not minor league. So if Temple were to go 12-0 (which might be what it takes), they would then have to be in that College Football Final 4 playoff that's coming. If they weren't, I don't think you'll see the rally that you see with other non-professional Philly sports organizations (Villanova, Smarty Jones, etc.).

If they are 10-2 and play in an Orange Bowl, it would get good ratings in the area. But I doubt it would get enough fans migrating to Miami to make the Orange Bowl happy.

 

[Orangello]

[
NBC/Comcast wants the contract badly - the network wants to present BE football from 12 noon to 12 midnight.

.[/quote]

 

[OrangePA]

As someone who married into a family of Philly fanatics, I do agree that Philly, moreso than other city I've seen, really does rally around anything Philly. I've often wondered if that's because of the lack of championships, that makes them starving for it. Other than the Phillies in 2008, it's been a long dry period.

I think they would rally around Temple, to a point. I believe KingOtto is right that unless Temple's success will translate into the adult dinner table of college football in some fashion, even the starved for championship Philly fans might not be all that interested. They are going to make sure it's major league, not minor league. So if Temple were to go 12-0 (which might be what it takes), they would then have to be in that College Football Final 4 playoff that's coming. If they weren't, I don't think you'll see the rally that you see with other non-professional Philly sports organizations (Villanova, Smarty Jones, etc.).

If they are 10-2 and play in an Orange Bowl, it would get good ratings in the area. But I doubt it would get enough fans migrating to Miami to make the Orange Bowl happy.

Love your loyalty OPA, but I think the point the others here are making is that WVU is gone, SU is gone, Pitt is gone. A Big East Automatic Bid is almost assuredly gone. So the Orange Bowl really isn't in play like it would have been in the BE up until now. The BE has taken a step backwards. They have become a lesser conference, and it will be a challenge for teams -- especially teams like Temple -- to capture the imagination of new fans.

It's not about loyalty - it's about objectivity.

Think about the calculus and think about your conclusion.

The BE lost WVU, Pitt and SU.

Clearly the WVU loss was huge. But the Pitt loss and the SU loss for football cannot be put in the same category.

Now, add Boise State - a huge national power get by any measure - a team the entire nation likes to watch - more so than WVU.

Add SMU - a traditional SW power that is on the rise and that plays out of a huge market - with a name coach - June Jones.

Add Houston - another traditional SW power that is very strong - it won 11 games last year and I think pummeled Penn State in a bowl game.

Add Central Florida with another name head coach and a decent program also playing out of a large market.

Add San Diego State another very solid program playing out of another large market.

Do you really think that the loss of WVU is not countered by the addtions of Boise, Houston, SMU and Central Florida - not to mention Temple out of the Philly market?

Do you really think that WVU was that much of a television draw?

I don't think so.

I think any objective measure declares the BE Football Conference better now than it was last year.

And that has nothing to do with loyalty - it's simply objective math.

 

[kingottoiii]

Anyway, NBC just wants to get in the game, start small and grow. The Big East looks like it will be the beneficiary.

That may be true short term but NBC would be crazy to invest in the BE. If they really want to enter college sports they will give the BE a 5 year deal that isn't all that expensive. Then go after the B1G, which will likely be a bidding war with FOX. If NBC were to fail then they can extend the BE.

 

[javadoc]

Bottome line - He is concerned about stability but thinks the BE could get a very good TV contract.

I will believe this when I see it. Then I will still wonder why.

 

[texasorange]

But before you were in Texas - when Houston and SMU competed in the SW Conference - they had strong followings.

Both have great football pedigrees.

With the ability to compete nationally, both can become players again.

Sorry, but I disagree with your premise - that fan interest is cast in stone. That's just not true.

I recall very clearly when Texas A&M and Tech were pretty mediocre programs.

Things change.

They have changed. You are living in the past when Dallas was a much smaller city. Times have changed. Those days are gone forever. SMU is an afterthought down here, or are you going to try & tell me what "here" is really like? That's pretty arrogant.

 

[dollarbill44]

I find it entirely plausible that NBC will take a loss for a few years on a BE contract in order to prove itself so that it can eventually bid on the bigger conferences TV packages in the future. It's possible they don't feel the BE is viable for more than a few years anyway.

 

[ImperialOrange]

It's not about loyalty - it's about objectivity.

Think about the calculus and think about your conclusion.

The BE lost WVU, Pitt and SU.

Clearly the WVU loss was huge. But the Pitt loss and the SU loss for football cannot be put in the same category.

Now, add Boise State - a huge national power get by any measure - a team the entire nation likes to watch - more so than WVU.

If that was true Boise State would be in the Big 12 w/ or instead of WVU. If Boise St isn't going undefeated every year then people won't care.

Add SMU - a traditional SW power that is on the rise and that plays out of a huge market - with a name coach - June Jones.

Huge market that they are irrelevant in.

Add Houston - another traditional SW power that is very strong - it won 11 games last year and I think pummeled Penn State in a bowl game.

""

Add Central Florida with another name head coach and a decent program also playing out of a large market.

""

Add San Diego State another very solid program playing out of another large market.

""

Do you really think that the loss of WVU is not countered by the addtions of Boise, Houston, SMU and Central Florida - not to mention Temple out of the Philly market?

Do you really think that WVU was that much of a television draw?

I don't think so.

I think any objective measure declares the BE Football Conference better now than it was last year.

And that has nothing to do with loyalty - it's simply objective math.

Wow, nothing's going to change your mind on this is it? What you're using is not objective math, it's subjective math and the same that Rutgers tries to use to convince themselves that the Big 10 wants them.

I'm 45 minutes from Philly, noone cares about Temple. It's Penn State country.

Texans are telling you how much Houston and SMU don't matter. If they did, they'd be in the Big 12 or another conference. Same with all of the teams added.

You keep talking about how valuable these new BE teams are, and I'll keep pointing out that it they were in fact that valuable then they would NOT be in the BE in the first place.

 

[BlazeOrange]

ESPN has right of first refusal - so there apparently will be some form of bidding for the deal.

I agree that the BE makes sense for NBC, but didn't see why they would have to overpay for it. Then I re-read the OP and saw the quoted nugget. Does that imply that if NBC makes an offer, ESPN can just match it and they're done? Or would NBC get a chance to go higher if ESPN matched? The first scenario is basically a closed bid process for NBC with extra pressure against them and could result in a premium offer. But if it could revert to an open auction type process, they may as well start low and see if ESPN will blink.

Or at this level, does everyone already know the others price points and the bidding is basically a sham?

 

[OrangePA]

Wow, nothing's going to change your mind on this is it? What you're using is not objective math, it's subjective math and the same that Rutgers tries to use to convince themselves that the Big 10 wants them.

I'm 45 minutes from Philly, noone cares about Temple. It's Penn State country.

Texans are telling you how much Houston and SMU don't matter. If they did, they'd be in the Big 12 or another conference. Same with all of the teams added.

You keep talking about how valuable these new BE teams are, and I'll keep pointing out that it they were in fact that valuable then they would NOT be in the BE in the first place.

A few things.

In no particular order. For years college football folks have been degrading and denouncing the BE, and yet year after year it seems a large conference comes and takes BE teams - Miami, BC, Va Tech, SU, Pitt, WVU. I have little doubt that teams like Louisville, Cincinnati, and even Rutgers and UConn are appealing to other conferences - there is always the possibility that those teams will leave the BE in the near future.

So, the silly notion that because teams are or have been in the BE they are not valuable is indeed silly.

As far as conving me is concerned, let say this. Nothing anybody has said on this board is enough to alter the views of my contact who clearly knows more about the BE TV discussions than any of us.

Let me also point out that there is nothing subjective about the TV viewing populations in Dallas, Houston, Orlando, San Diego and Philadelphia.

There is nothing subjective about the impact that Boise State has had on college football in the last few years.

There is nothing subjective about the football histories of University of Houston, where the Veer-Option was designed by the great coach Bill Yoeman. There is nothing subjective about the football tradition of SMU, with Hayden Frye, Don Meredith, Eric Dickerson, Craig James and others.

I did not state that Houston, SMU, or San Diego State are - right now - college football dynamos. I have suggested that Houston and SMU have been dynamos in the past and that with some national success can be much more relevant in the future.

I know and understand that many on this board truly want to see the BE fail for whatever reason.

And, that may happen. I am glad that SU is in the ACC - I have wanted it since 2003 - when many on this board did not want it.

But, regardless of our feelings about it, there are reasons that I have described, why the BE is an interesting source of sports programming for NBC/Comcast/Fox and ESPN.

If you don't want to believe that - that's fine with me.

By the way, where do you live forty-five minutes from Philly?
Where do you live?

You're not reading.

I have never suggested What I am suggesting with respect

 

[OrangePA]

They have changed. You are living in the past when Dallas was a much smaller city. Times have changed. Those days are gone forever. SMU is an afterthought down here, or are you going to try & tell me what "here" is really like? That's pretty arrogant.

Gosh, when I used to visit Dallas not too long ago - when SMU was a powerhouse - it was a big city and there were a lot of SMU grads walking around. I suspect that there are still a lot of wealthy Texans hanging around who would like to see the Mustangs return to prominence.

Are you an SMU grad by chance?

Actually, I think, once again, that you and others are really missing the point.

Obviously SMU Football has struggled to regain its footing following the death penalty. In the past years it has fallen behind Texas, Texas A&M and other programs. But times are changing. Heck, it was not all that long ago that many viewed TCU as a dead football program - and now it's in the Big 12.

Did you, with all of your "Texas" experience, predict the intense resurrection of the Horned Frogs' program? Don't you think that your quick dismissal of SMU or Houston is itself a bit "arrogant"?

Haven't you ignored the fact that SMU is now playing pretty competitive football and that my analysis is really prospective?

On second thought, the fact that you do not seem willing to consider what may very well occur in the near future with traditional programs such as SMU and Houston is not so much "arrogant," but misguided.

Sorry.

 

[texascpa]

I find it entirely plausible that NBC will take a loss for a few years on a BE contract in order to prove itself so that it can eventually bid on the bigger conferences TV packages in the future. It's possible they don't feel the BE is viable for more than a few years anyway.

I was reading an article about how NBC back in the late 80's and early 90's took a chance on Seinfeld and Cheers when both tanked the first year and a half. The held fast because the believed in the product. The guy who was in charge of those decisions back then said it doesn't work that way anymore. And you can see it in the number of shows that are cancelled only a few episodes in. Stockholders are not willing to take extended losses. CEO's are not willing to take extended losses. The wait-and-see approach is gone. It's the "We want it now" approach. I can't see, in this market, NBC willing to take years worth of losses to build their sports channels.

 

[SU2NASA]

I see your point, I counter only that ND values their independence and they view the lesser payout as just a cost of remaining independent. They will still get a bump when their TV deal ends, especially if they do something novel like win and become relevent again. They will get a nice cut of the Big East conference for their hoops and they get the east coast exposure for all sports not called football. If money was a real issue with ND, they could easily join a conference, the B1g, ACC, Big East and Big 12 come to mind.

Completely agree - I think it's that holding on to independence that has caused them to be irrelevant on-field.

 

[Noexcuse]

A few things.

In no particular order. For years college football folks have been degrading and denouncing the BE, and yet year after year it seems a large conference comes and takes BE teams - Miami, BC, Va Tech, SU, Pitt, WVU. I have little doubt that teams like Louisville, Cincinnati, and even Rutgers and UConn are appealing to other conferences - there is always the possibility that those teams will leave the BE in the near future.

So then the question becomes: Do you still call it the Big East?

 

[ImperialOrange]

A few things.

In no particular order. For years college football folks have been degrading and denouncing the BE, and yet year after year it seems a large conference comes and takes BE teams - Miami, BC, Va Tech, SU, Pitt, WVU. I have little doubt that teams like Louisville, Cincinnati, and even Rutgers and UConn are appealing to other conferences - there is always the possibility that those teams will leave the BE in the near future.

If the Big East looked like that it would be a legitamate conference that I'd love to play in. Any of those 4 that remain leaving will weaken the BE brand name even further.

So, the silly notion that because teams are or have been in the BE they are not valuable is indeed silly.

Never said that.

As far as conving me is concerned, let say this. Nothing anybody has said on this board is enough to alter the views of my contact who clearly knows more about the BE TV discussions than any of us.

Let me also point out that there is nothing subjective about the TV viewing populations in Dallas, Houston, Orlando, San Diego and Philadelphia.

You're right, there is nothing subjective about the markets. What I'm stating (along with most others) is that those markets are not watching the Big East because they have better veiwing options from Nationally appealing teams in bigger conferences in those same markets.

There is nothing subjective about the impact that Boise State has had on college football in the last few years.

and it's not a far cry to see them become irrelevant as soon as they don't have a top 10 ranking next to their name for 2 years in a row. There are a ton of teams that had nice runs and have since faded into obscurity. Houston and SMU were 2 of them, UNLV basketball had a nice run as well, etc.

There is nothing subjective about the football histories of University of Houston, where the Veer-Option was designed by the great coach Bill Yoeman. There is nothing subjective about the football tradition of SMU, with Hayden Frye, Don Meredith, Eric Dickerson, Craig James and others.

There is nothing subjective about 1959, 1987, Ernie Davis, Jim Brown, Floyd Little, etc. but it does not mean we currently capture NYC's attention for football anymore than SMU carries the Dallas market.

I did not state that Houston, SMU, or San Diego State are - right now - college football dynamos. I have suggested that Houston and SMU have been dynamos in the past and that with some national success can be much more relevant in the future.

They could, if they were playing head to head (and beating) the relevant teams that currently draw all the eyes in their area in conference play but they aren't.

I know and understand that many on this board truly want to see the BE fail for whatever reason.

Because the BE failed us perhaps?

But, regardless of our feelings about it, there are reasons that I have described, why the BE is an interesting source of sports programming for NBC/Comcast/Fox and ESPN.

Honeslty, you could be 100% right and the BE could get a decent TV contract just because they are there. However, there doesn't appear to be a ton of common sense behind it. Of course, not every business decision makes sense on the surface and they could just use the BE as an entry level so that they'll have everything in place to bid on a more attractive conference in the future.

You could be right, but I'm not sure you've ever considered that your view on this could be wrong as well.

I'm not saying the Big East doesn't have value but we seem to differ greatly in our views of how much value that is.

 

[All4SU]

It's not about loyalty - it's about objectivity.

Think about the calculus and think about your conclusion.

The BE lost WVU, Pitt and SU.

Clearly the WVU loss was huge. But the Pitt loss and the SU loss for football cannot be put in the same category.

Now, add Boise State - a huge national power get by any measure - a team the entire nation likes to watch - more so than WVU.

Add SMU - a traditional SW power that is on the rise and that plays out of a huge market - with a name coach - June Jones.

Add Houston - another traditional SW power that is very strong - it won 11 games last year and I think pummeled Penn State in a bowl game.

Add Central Florida with another name head coach and a decent program also playing out of a large market.

Add San Diego State another very solid program playing out of another large market.

Do you really think that the loss of WVU is not countered by the addtions of Boise, Houston, SMU and Central Florida - not to mention Temple out of the Philly market?

Do you really think that WVU was that much of a television draw?

I don't think so.

I think any objective measure declares the BE Football Conference better now than it was last year.

And that has nothing to do with loyalty - it's simply objective math.

To me, it's not about the teams...at least not any more. It's about the Brand. The Big East brand is diluted to the point of being unrecognizable. It's not a conference, but rather just a collection of teams based on necessity. The sum of the parts is less.

Now COULD the Big East build up a brand again? Sure. Maybe. That might take years. And they won't exist long enough to make that happen.

In my opinion, my assessment is as "objective" as yours.

 

[omniorange]

The Big East's prospects of getting a good TV contract will likely depend on multiple bidders for the contract and how high they are willing to go. I think we know ESPN's approximate high. So it comes down to whether or not FOX and Comcast get into a bidder war higher than ESPN's high.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Cuseman78]

To me, it's not about the teams...at least not any more. It's about the Brand. The Big East brand is diluted to the point of being unrecognizable. It's not a conference, but rather just a collection of teams based on necessity. The sum of the parts is less.

Now COULD the Big East build up a brand again? Sure. Maybe. That might take years. And they won't exist long enough to make that happen.

In my opinion, my assessment is as "objective" as yours.

Well said. This is the argument that I've continued to make and Brand is the one intangible element of the realignment process that the OP seems to have very little grasp of. While it is true that the new BE is comprised of teams within large tv markets, King Otto was absolutely right in his breakdown of those respective markets earlier in this thread. Very few of the remaining teams currently dominate their own market (Louisville as the exception). That's a MAJOR problem.

Louisville is the lone name brand athletic program left in the conference (Uconn hasn't built up enough football cred over the years or they would be too). Lets be honest, The BE has essentially been picked through and the desirables have been plucked out. What remains is a league with no buzz, no brand names, and hence no place at the Big Boy table.

 

[Stern]

The BE has no leverage. ESPN will let them walk before overpaying. If ESPN let the NHL walk I am 99.9% sure they will let the BE walk. And with WV, SU, and Pitt basketball leaving losing the BE basketball rights is no big deal. They will just put on more ACC and Big 12 games.

I believe Comcast and ESPN will come to the BE with their best offers and the BE will take the best one and that's that. This notion that the "NEW" Big East is so hot and "must see" that they can play the sides off each other to get a "good" or "great" deal is insane! And if anyone believes it I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

Well, I don't feel passionately about this whole debate at all since the team I root for is soon to be in the ACC. But I'll be watching intently this coming fall to see which of you prove to be seers and which ones prove to be false prophets. I have my suspicions as to who is the latter but will keep them to myself so that I can be perceived as "wise" later on down the road. I'm also counting on no one remembering this post by the time the leaves turn brown.

 

[All4SU]

Well, I don't feel passionately about this whole debate at all since the team I root for is soon to be in the ACC. But I'll be watching intently this coming fall to see which of you prove to be seers and which ones prove to be false prophets. I have my suspicions as to who is the latter but will keep them to myself so that I can be perceived as "wise" later on down the road. I'm also counting on no one remembering this post by the time the leaves turn brown.

Just remember I clicked "Like" on your post.