Team Just Looks Better w Long...

[Millhouse]

we did a lot of rationalizing with hunts running ability but qbs gotta be able to throw the ball. hunt had his moments but you just never know what you're going to get from one throw to the next.

hunt completes 51% against p5, long 64%. great rushing instincts can't overcome that

no brainer

 

[baggerbob]

We seem to go through this every year and I'm not sure why the expectation is that the back-ups are always better than the current starters. Why is it all about Long over Hunt and not Ishmael/West getting the ball over Broyld/Estime? I've got nothing against Long and no specific loyalty to Hunt, but I find it amusing how some people can make absolute statements after 6 quarters of football.

Also, before we pencil in 8-9 wins for next year, remember SU loses Crume/Welsh/Robinson/Davis/Lynch/Kelly/Reddish and most likely Eskridge on defense. That's a lot to replace in one year.

Out of all those players, Eskridge is the only big loss, Thompson, Johnson, Raymon, Williams could be the best D-line we've had in years. The young Linebackers, and Defensive backs, will get better as the year goes on, but the front 4 will ease the pain.

 

[dollarbill44]

Broyld doesn't exactly like to hit people.

Have you seen him block?

Actually, I haven't seen him do much at all this year, since you mention it.

 

[phil77]

Out of all those players, Eskridge is the only big loss, Thompson, Johnson, Raymon, Williams could be the best D-line we've had in years. The young Linebackers, and Defensive backs, will get better as the year goes on, but the front 4 will ease the pain.

I think losing Lynch will hurt also.

 

[phil77]

Long seems to have a better grasp of the offense already when compared to Hunt.
Long already seems to make better decisions within the offense.
Long already has better accuracy on his throws than Hunt.
When Long scrambles he looks to make plays with his arm like a QB should while Hunt is content on running.

Unless another injury happens I see zero reason why the staff would go back to Hunt this year or next. Long is already passed Hunt as a QB.

 

[anomander]

way too early to say he is better. I think its certain things Hunt can do that AJ cant and vice versa. Lester is giving AJ a short play book right now. Easy reads and easy decisions. I will like to see him play with a full playbook. Reason why the coaches are rolling him out on pass plays so he doesnt have to read the whole field, just half. AJ's biggest strengths is his confidence, ability to throw on the run (better than hunt), especially on roll outs. AJ's accuracy is slightly better than Hunt's. But his arms strength is not great and his size will hurt him at times. Teams are gonna start game planning on him to take away his strengths. Teams have already done that vs Hunt and he has still performed. I love Hunt's power running ability and toughness. But Im excited about AJ but I am not ready to say Hunt is done. That kid is a fighter. We shall see folks

I think this is the key. FSU actually said they had no idea how to game plan against Long so they just sat back and played a very vanilla defense. I was excited with what I saw against WF because as bad as they are they have a really good defense with some NFL db's.

I don't want to anoint Long as "the guy" (or at least in terms of Long or Hunt) quite yet, but it's getting close. I don't think we will get the answer vs. Clemson this week either...unless he can lead us to a miraculous upset. However from the 6 quarters we have seen thus far from Long I keep saying to myself what can Hunt do that Long can't? I guess Hunt is better around the goaline where he is more of a threat to use his size to pound it in himself. Hunt may have a little better arm strength, but what's the good if the accuracy isn't there? Then you have AJ's strengths compared to Hunt. Again this is a very limited sample, but so far i'd say Long's accuracy (still not great) is much better. Long has much more quickness. He also seems to use his quickness not to take off after the first or second read, but to give himself time while continuing to look down field. I think the biggest difference is Long's accuracy on the shorter pass, and the touch he puts on it. Since we use the short passes a ton it's good to see Long put a very catchable ball in a spot where the wr/rb can make a play. Hunt missed on a ton of these and took no velocity off it.

I'm one of the biggest Hunt supporters there is, but I am extremely surprised at how good Long has looked. Just curious what you think Hunt's strengths are compared to Long?

Also, I think bringing Drew Allen into this is ridiculous. The kid just couldn't play. Hunt should have replaced him.

Out of all those players, Eskridge is the only big loss, Thompson, Johnson, Raymon, Williams could be the best D-line we've had in years. The young Linebackers, and Defensive backs, will get better as the year goes on, but the front 4 will ease the pain.

I agree with this. It could be addition by subtraction in some cases. I think Thompson and Johnson will be improvements at DE, or at least give us a pass rush off the edge. Davis has been good, but has been a major disappointment this year (minus last game), and throughout his career has disappeared at times. Crume is good, but he is replaceable. Biggest losses will be Cam, and Reddish.

 

[MikeSU02]

I'm excited about Long, but realize he is just getting going.

With that said, we have one more year with Hunt being 100% healthy if we choose to go with Hunt. We have 3.5 years left with AJ if we choose to go with AJ (and assume we don't recruit over him - which, if it happens, great).

I think investing in AJ is going to be worth more down the line than if we go in with Hunt for one more year. On offense, I want to see the AJ - Ish - Erv core grow (along with the other young talent) and focus on two years from now (their JR years) being the year we make a real challenge to be top 25.

Finally, as others have noted, Hunt can't throw the ball well and at the end of the day we need a QB who can throw basic lead passes in the flat, for example. With AJ, we'll have to roll the pocket out, but that shouldn't be a huge challenge for a competent OC in the college game.

For now, let's beat Clemson.

 

[tep624]

I feel the biggest issue with Hunt is that he hasn't progressed.

He had a very respectable season last year as a first time starter. Especially considering he was doing it for an entirely new staff and a new system.

I expected to see him really shore up his short passing game. When he did play, there were still some series that were led to 3 and outs with him overthrowing swing passes on consecutive plays. That just can't happen. You would expect that from a first time starter, but not a returning starter.

I just see chemistry on the offense now. People working together. And points going on the board. Granted, we still have red zone issues converting, but at least we seem to be able to piece together consecutive drives that keep the defense off the field.

I'm starting to feel more and more like what we saw out of Hunt in 2013 was his peak. And for a program expected to progress, that isn't going to work.

 

[money3189]

I think this is the key. FSU actually said they had no idea how to game plan against Long so they just sat back and played a very vanilla defense. I was excited with what I saw against WF because as bad as they are they have a really good defense with some NFL db's.

I don't want to anoint Long as "the guy" (or at least in terms of Long or Hunt) quite yet, but it's getting close. I don't think we will get the answer vs. Clemson this week either...unless he can lead us to a miraculous upset. However from the 6 quarters we have seen thus far from Long I keep saying to myself what can Hunt do that Long can't? I guess Hunt is better around the goaline where he is more of a threat to use his size to pound it in himself. Hunt may have a little better arm strength, but what's the good if the accuracy isn't there? Then you have AJ's strengths compared to Hunt. Again this is a very limited sample, but so far i'd say Long's accuracy (still not great) is much better. Long has much more quickness. He also seems to use his quickness not to take off after the first or second read, but to give himself time while continuing to look down field. I think the biggest difference is Long's accuracy on the shorter pass, and the touch he puts on it. Since we use the short passes a ton it's good to see Long put a very catchable ball in a spot where the wr/rb can make a play. Hunt missed on a ton of these and took no velocity off it.

I'm one of the biggest Hunt supporters there is, but I am extremely surprised at how good Long has looked. Just curious what you think Hunt's strengths are compared to Long?

Also, I think bringing Drew Allen into this is ridiculous. The kid just couldn't play. Hunt should have replaced him.




I agree with this. It could be addition by subtraction in some cases. I think Thompson and Johnson will be improvements at DE, or at least give us a pass rush off the edge. Davis has been good, but has been a major disappointment this year (minus last game), and throughout his career has disappeared at times. Crume is good, but he is replaceable. Biggest losses will be Cam, and Reddish.

Absolutely agree with all of this

 

[tep624]

I'm excited about Long, but realize he is just getting going.

With that said, we have one more year with Hunt being 100% healthy if we choose to go with Hunt. We have 3.5 years left with AJ if we choose to go with AJ (and assume we don't recruit over him - which, if it happens, great).

I think investing in AJ is going to be worth more down the line than if we go in with Hunt for one more year. On offense, I want to see the AJ - Ish - Erv core grow (along with the other young talent) and focus on two years from now (their JR years) being the year we make a real challenge to be top 25.

Finally, as others have noted, Hunt can't throw the ball well and at the end of the day we need a QB who can throw basic lead passes in the flat, for example. With AJ, we'll have to roll the pocket out, but that shouldn't be a huge challenge for a competent OC in the college game.

For now, let's beat Clemson.

AJ - Ish - Erv - Brisly - throw into that mix Custis, and you have some really nice talent at the skill positions. If we can add 1 or 2 impact freshman from the 2015 class into that mix, then you've really got something. And if Edouard makes it to campus to challenge AJ, then even better.

 

[money3189]

AJ - Ish - Erv - Brisly - throw into that mix Custis, and you have some really nice talent at the skill positions. If we can add 1 or 2 impact freshman from the 2015 class into that mix, then you've really got something. And if Edouard makes it to campus to challenge AJ, then even better.

add Strickland to that. I am a big fan of Edouard and I think people are gonna jump on his ban wagon too.

 

[OrangePA]

I think Hunt's performance can't be extricated from his ties with GMC as the OC. Will Hunt be better with a different OC? Who knows? We'll have to wait and see if he gets a chance at the offense with Lester calling the plays.

I don't think the OC has anything to do with how AJ Long as played.

 

[TheCusian]

I don't think the OC has anything to do with how AJ Long as played.

Nothing? That can't be a serious comment.

Playing QB is about rhythm and McDonald would be good for one or two odd play calls out of rhythm a drive.

Lester has trimmed the playbook. This has helped the offense too.

 

[OrangePA]

Nothing? That can't be a serious comment.

Playing QB is about rhythm and McDonald would be good for one or two odd play calls out of rhythm a drive.

Lester has trimmed the playbook. This has helped the offense too.

The OC does not improve the QB's accuracy. He does not make the QB quicker. He does not convey to the QB football savvy.

What I see is better execution - quicker feet, more accurate passing and throws that are simply easier to catch.

I agree that the offense seems less complicated - fewer moving parts. But I was seeing that with OC McDonald as the season progressed.

So, no, I think what we see with AJ Long are certain innate qualities that allow the offense to work better. Sure, Lester has probably had some impact on the offense, but I suspect far less than is presumed by many.

I know that everybody wants the OC change to have impact - we always want to believe that it's about coaching. But typically that's not the case - its usually about talent. And with Long, it's his talent or the nature of his talent that in my opinion is making the biggest difference.

 

[tipphill]

I know there are tons and tons of Hunt supporters here, due to loyalty or some other reason... but you just cant watch the team with Long and not realize that we are better with him. My issue with Hunt from day 1 is that he simply can not throw a football. This has never changed, and it never will. Long gives us a vertical game, and thats with our best weapons (although Ishmael is proving to be our first potential stud in a decade) out while has has been at the helm.

I really hope we dont ever put Hunt back in. I fear we will waste another season next year and put him back in the starting role. With our defense, RB core, and with Ishmael/Estime/Broyld, i think we can be an 8 or 9 win team with Long at qb in 2015. I hope he gets his chance.

i agree with most--but if we do not correct the red zone, its a lost cause--i still say scrap the no huddle, this group needs the huddle to focus and communicate. there would be better execution and communication---both they really need

 

[Jake]

The OC does not improve the QB's accuracy. He does not make the QB quicker. He does not convey to the QB football savvy. What I see is better execution - quicker feet, more accurate passing and throws that are simply easier to catch. I agree that the offense seems less complicated - fewer moving parts. But I was seeing that with OC McDonald as the season progressed. So, no, I think what we see with AJ Long are certain innate qualities that allow the offense to work better. Sure, Lester has probably had some impact on the offense, but I suspect far less than is presumed by many. I know that everybody wants the OC change to have impact - we always want to believe that it's about coaching. But typically that's not the case - its usually about talent. And with Long, it's his talent or the nature of his talent that in my opinion is making the biggest difference.

The coaching change was made before the QB change. The head coach seems to think the OC was a significant part of the problem.

 

[Millhouse]

The coaching change was made before the QB change. The head coach seems to think the OC was a significant part of the problem.

i do feel a little bad for hunt that he never got to be in this offense. i think long's better and you can't spend a bunch of games doing science experiments with control variables but it's a bit of a bummer for him.

 

[Crusty]

The OC does not improve the QB's accuracy. He does not make the QB quicker. He does not convey to the QB football savvy.

What I see is better execution - quicker feet, more accurate passing and throws that are simply easier to catch.

I agree that the offense seems less complicated - fewer moving parts. But I was seeing that with OC McDonald as the season progressed.

So, no, I think what we see with AJ Long are certain innate qualities that allow the offense to work better. Sure, Lester has probably had some impact on the offense, but I suspect far less than is presumed by many.

I know that everybody wants the OC change to have impact - we always want to believe that it's about coaching. But typically that's not the case - its usually about talent. And with Long, it's his talent or the nature of his talent that in my opinion is making the biggest difference.

While I generally agree with the talent point and I think AJ has done well, I have been going over the last two games, especially Wake Forest, and I am starting to see that Lester has made some changes that seem to fit AJ perfectly. He has changed some play design for the better and has been crafty in play sequences using one play to set up another.

Lester has virtually eliminated the bubble screens and replaced them with other plays to get the play makers in space such as sweeps, swing passes and toss sweeps. We have also seen an emphasis on the quick game with many slants, hitches and curl routes.

Have you noticed how much motion we used? I am sure that is to try and get AJ a better read of the defense. Notice that he has used the swing pass effectively so putting that back in motion has got to draw a reaction from the D.

Lester has put Aj is the best position to succeed and that is all that can be asked of a coach. I think it is one of the reasons why AJ is playing with such confidence.

The more I look, the more I see Lester's handwork. I must say I am liking it.

 

[CuseOnly]

While I generally agree with the talent point and I think AJ has done well, I have been going over the last two games, especially Wake Forest, and I am starting to see that Lester has made some changes that seem to fit AJ perfectly. He has changed some play design for the better and has been crafty in play sequences using one play to set up another.

Lester has virtually eliminated the bubble screens and replaced them with other plays to get the play makers in space such as sweeps, swing passes and toss sweeps. We have also seen an emphasis on the quick game with many slants, hitches and curl routes.

Have you noticed how much motion we used? I am sure that is to try and get AJ a better read of the defense. Notice that he has used the swing pass effectively so putting that back in motion has got to draw a reaction from the D.

Lester has put Aj is the best position to succeed and that is all that can be asked of a coach. I think it is one of the reasons why AJ is playing with such confidence.

The more I look, the more I see Lester's handwork. I must say I am liking it.

Agree 100%.

 

[money3189]

I hope you guys saw how watered down the offense was. Yes it made us efficient. Its smart on our part because it allows better execution but we cant get away with that the rest of the season. Thats why I said we need to evaluate him when he is given the whole playbook. A lot more moving parts, checks and reads. Did you guys notice we ran one formation primarily the whole game? We ran what I like to call Loose RT or Loose Left. Loose is a shot gun 2 back set with 2 wrs on one side and 1 on the other. One of the TB would go in motion at times. We cant do this against Clemson. They will have a field day if we dont show them different looks.

 

[MikeSU02]

I hope you guys see how watered down the offense was. Yes it made us efficient. Its smart on our part because it allows better execution but we cant get away with that the rest of the season. Thats why I said we need to evaluate him when he is given the whole playbook. A lot more moving parts, checks and reads. Did you guys notice we ran one formation primarily the whole game? We ran what I like to call Loose RT or Loose Left. Loose is a shot gun 2 back set with 2 wrs on one side and 1 on the other. One of the TB would go in motion at times. We cant do this against Clemson. They will have a field day if we dont show them different looks.

All of this may be true, and I agree there should be cautious optimism with regard to AJ, but I don't care what Lester or McDonald called, Hunt throws a bad ball. He's currently injured. We have 1 year left with him fully healthy.

I would rather slowly re-grow the playbook for this year, before putting Lester's offense in for next year, and keep AJ as the starter for the long haul. We are never going back to the full playbook that McDonald had. It's going to be a modified version that grows bit by bit and will change based on our bowl outlook as well.

I don't care how vanilla the offense or vanilla the defense he was facing, competing with FSU matters. Beating Wake Forest matters. Throwing TD passes matter. Hunt had 1 throwing TD and 4 interceptions this year, and he got to face Villanova and CMU.

We aren't ready to compete for a conference title right now. We aren't close to being a top 25 team right now. We need to focus on two years from now to get where we want to be. Maybe AJ isn't the guy and everyone is excited for a flash in the pan, but Hunt is not the guy to bring us where we need to go.

Just my 0.02. But AJ sure passes the look test and I want to invest in someone that has years ahead of him here (and maybe that is another guy on the roster or to-be-recruited kid), but I don't see Hunt getting us there in his time left.

It sounds harsh because Hunt is easy to root for. He helped get us a to a bowl game last year. He has a great story. And I'll root for him if he gets put back under center. But all of your concerns, while real, are ok for a true frosh to deal with. But issues at the QB position for a guy that's been here four years is not ok in my book if there is someone that can do it just as good or better that is younger.

 

[Crusty]

I hope you guys see how watered down the offense was. Yes it made us efficient. Its smart on our part because it allows better execution but we cant get away with that the rest of the season. Thats why I said we need to evaluate him when he is given the whole playbook. A lot more moving parts, checks and reads. Did you guys notice we ran one formation primarily the whole game? We ran what I like to call Loose RT or Loose Left. Loose is a shot gun 2 back set with 2 wrs on one side and 1 on the other. One of the TB would go in motion at times. We cant do this against Clemson. They will have a field day if we dont show them different looks.

Good thoughts.
Because I chart the plays it was impossible not to notice that formation being used so often. As a matter of fact, when we empty a few times we checked out of it to a one or two back set. For the most part a TE (JP) was in there as a safety value so it wan't really 3 WRs.

I will be surprised if we don't use motion to give AJ keys to the coverage as it seems evident he needs it.

You have identified the challenge. The fewer the plays the easier it is to defend. However, I am gaining some insight into Lester and he is a crafty guy and he obviously knows the problem.

This is a chess match and Lester will be be installing some different plays and modifying others so as to disguise what they really are. If AJ is a quick study, we'll be OK.

By the time we play NCS this offense will look quite different.

 

[money3189]

All of this may be true, and I agree there should be cautious optimism with regard to AJ, but I don't care what Lester or McDonald called, Hunt throws a bad ball. He's currently injured. We have 1 year left with him fully healthy.

I would rather slowly re-grow the playbook for this year, before putting Lester's offense in for next year, and keep AJ as the starter for the long haul. We are never going back to the full playbook that McDonald had. It's going to be a modified version that grows bit by bit and will change based on our bowl outlook as well.


I don't care how vanilla the offense or vanilla the defense he was facing, competing with FSU matters. Beating Wake Forest matters. Throwing TD passes matter. Hunt had 1 throwing TD and 4 interceptions this year, and he got to face Villanova and CMU.

We aren't ready to compete for a conference title right now. We aren't close to being a top 25 team right now. We need to focus on two years from now to get where we want to be. Maybe AJ isn't the guy and everyone is excited for a flash in the pan, but Hunt is not the guy to bring us where we need to go.

Just my 0.02. But AJ sure passes the look test and I want to invest in someone that has years ahead of him here (and maybe that is another guy on the roster or to-be-recruited kid), but I don't see Hunt getting us there in his time left.

It sounds harsh because Hunt is easy to root for. He helped get us a to a bowl game last year. He has a great story. And I'll root for him if he gets put back under center. But all of your concerns, while real, are ok for a true frosh to deal with. But issues at the QB position for a guy that's been here four years is not ok in my book if there is someone that can do it just as good or better that is younger.

all reasonable points. Have to look at it constructively. Its easy for us to say AJ is more accurate, should be the guy plus he can be a 4 year starter. Sounds great. We dont know how much Hunt will get better. He is a hard worker and none of us know him personally and none of us know what he is willing to do to keep the spot. Theres alot of time and a whole off season. We might be having this same conversation a year or two from now. When Edouard shows flashes of greatness.

 

[money3189]

Good thoughts.
Because I chart the plays it was impossible not to notice that formation being used so often. As a matter of fact, when we empty a few times we checked out of it to a one or two back set. For the most part a TE (JP) was in there as a safety value so it wan't really 3 WRs.

I will be surprised if we don't use motion to give AJ keys to the coverage as it seems evident he needs it.

You have identified the challenge. The fewer the plays the easier it is to defend. However, I am gaining some insight into Lester and he is a crafty guy and he obviously knows the problem.

This is a chess match and Lester will be be installing some different plays and modifying others so as to disguise what they really are. If AJ is a quick study, we'll be OK.

By the time we play NCS this offense will look quite different.

I agree and AJ is a whitty kid who will learn the playbook faster than most.

 

[TheCusian]

The OC does not improve the QB's accuracy. He does not make the QB quicker. He does not convey to the QB football savvy. What I see is better execution - quicker feet, more accurate passing and throws that are simply easier to catch. I agree that the offense seems less complicated - fewer moving parts. But I was seeing that with OC McDonald as the season progressed. So, no, I think what we see with AJ Long are certain innate qualities that allow the offense to work better. Sure, Lester has probably had some impact on the offense, but I suspect far less than is presumed by many. I know that everybody wants the OC change to have impact - we always want to believe that it's about coaching. But typically that's not the case - its usually about talent. And with Long, it's his talent or the nature of his talent that in my opinion is making the biggest difference.

Right. I agree that talent is more important. But you said the OC change didn't help at all.

Clearly both are important for the offenses overall improvement.