Texas, Oklahoma reach out to the SEC

[gbo]

When Clemson's football fortunes inevitably fade (and they will, they always do) you'll change your tune. Or you won't and you'll be just as obnoxious, that's quite possible.

Obnoxious? That's rich coming from you. I'm sorry that you can't see the writing on the wall that this conference has failed and the financial gap is going to continue to grow.

 

[Scooch]

I'm enjoying the ones about Stewarts gas stations more, if we're being honest.

They're definitely more relevant.

 

[Scooch]

Obnoxious? That's rich coming from you. I'm sorry that you can't see the writing on the wall that this conference has failed and the financial gap is going to continue to grow.

Yeah, the ACC has really failed Clemson.

 

[elimunelson]

Obnoxious? That's rich coming from you. I'm sorry that you can't see the writing on the wall that this conference has failed and the financial gap is going to continue to grow.

The conference has failed what? it's a consortium of teams that have agreed to play each other yearly and receive a contracted amount of money from ESPN to do so. They agreed to a contract to do it and everyone said let's bind ourselves to this deal so everyone is comfortable.

I see zero issues with how that was unfolded. I think Clemson, now that they are actually not a chronic underachieving football program is seeing that the SEC has opened the door to allowing a second state into their footprint (Texas).

Let's calm down on who failed who. Clemson hasn't been let down by anyone. If the money moves to absurdly disproportional levels, something will give ultimately. Clemson should try and leave and joust with the ACC on the exit fee in the 100s of millions of dollars.

 

[gbo]

Yeah, the ACC has really failed Clemson.

Come on man. I'm talking about the revenue disparity. You don't agree with me on who is to blame and that is quite alright, but you have to admit that it is going to be a problem going forward.

I apologize if I have come off as obnoxious in this thread as that was not my intention.

 

[gbo]

The conference has failed what? it's a consortium of teams that have agreed to play each other yearly and receive a contracted amount of money from ESPN to do so. They agreed to a contract to do it and everyone said let's bind ourselves to this deal so everyone is comfortable.

I see zero issues with how that was unfolded. I think Clemson, now that they are actually not a chronic underachieving football program is seeing that the SEC has opened the door to allowing a second state into their footprint (Texas).

Let's calm down on who failed who. Clemson hasn't been let down by anyone. If the money moves to absurdly disproportional levels, something will give ultimately. Clemson should try and leave and joust with the ACC on the exit fee in the 100s of millions of dollars.

I understand what you saying and don't disagree. I'm merely sharing my opinion.

 

[TheCusian]

Come on man. I'm talking about the revenue disparity. You don't agree with me on who is to blame and that is quite alright, but you have to admit that it is going to be a problem going forward.

I apologize if I have come off as obnoxious in this thread as that was not my intention.

Honest question - when does the money get so big that it stops adding value to winning games? In the SEC it looks like the throw a lot of it down the drain chasing Bama and firing coaches.

And know this comes from a program that could def use more, lol.

 

[TerryD]

I am going to be nice.
You are a visitor. I am not.
I got the fact wrong whose player tested positive in the FSU-Clemson game.
Your parasite of school needs to make a decision. At this point I don’t care to discuss this anymore with you. As it is pointless. I get everything as it relates to this stuff. You and your fanbase just want to protect the status quo.

Absolutely, no question about it. That is the desired goal for ND. That surely cannot be a surprise to anyone.

(I believe if SU and ND were in reverse positions, so would Syracuse fans)

ND wanted the status quo until 2036. That was the plan before the SEC move.

I think that it still is.

If college football is going to two super conferences (does anyone doubt?), then tell me how and why it is a good idea for ND to join the ACC right now for way less money and then get locked out of those two super conferences?

ND fans think it better to stay independent and then see how this plays out the next ten years or so.

If ND has to sell independence, then it shouldn't agree to sell it right away for the cheapest price.

Selling it right away for the lowest possible price is just plain dumb.

The thought is that if the conferences force ND to surrender, make them pay the highest amount for it.

That is just good business (College football has been a business for one hundred years).

The ACC is the best fit for ND, but at fire sale half price, locked in for 15 more years in a volatile, changing marketplace?

No other school would jump at that. Pitch that one to Penn State or Ohio State.

Now, if the ACC goes out and gets USC, Stanford and Navy to join it and comes to ND with a plan that ESPN says will pay ND close to Big Ten or SEC money, then ND will strongly listen to that and weigh the available options.

That is a bit different than other fans telling ND:

"You need to do this now for much less money because we want you to (and we will still hate you either way, as seen by this thread) and because it will help the rest of us out."

Instead of attacking ND or its fans, tell me where I am wrong, how Syracuse would do things differently if it were exactly in ND's shoes right now or how ND joining the ACC right now makes more sense than any other alternative for ND.

 

[Scooch]

Come on man. I'm talking about the revenue disparity. You don't agree with me on who is to blame and that is quite alright, but you have to admit that it is going to be a problem going forward.

I apologize if I have come off as obnoxious in this thread as that was not my intention.

We're good. I just bristle when a program that's, admittedly, at their apex acts like they'll be there forever, and everyone else should bow and scrape in their presence. I think what Dabo has accomplished is remarkable. Unfortunately, despite that success, Clemson is still not a top 15 most-popular program, and therefore that limits the amount the conference can command in media dollars.

I wish FSU and Miami had kept up their promise of being additional football pillars of the conference, but clearly they haven't, and that's been a problem.

The reality, whether people want to admit it or not, is that the ACC is simply not as valuable as the SEC and B10. At the same time, ACC schools make a ton of money, plenty enough to well-fund their athletic departments. If a school feels compelled to leave because they need another $10-15M/year so they can buy PS5s and hire 14 more S&C coaches, that's their choice.

 

[sabach]

Accurate in that's why you showed up, inaccurate that we're splitting hairs. You pointed out your records, I pointed out results and multiple teams more deserving.

Please invalidate my statement that brought you here with facts of what Notre Dame have achieved in the past 20 years, how they've not hung out out 2 conferences for personal benefit, how South Bend is a beautiful place and major media hub, how you and the entire fan base aren't well over 30 and fading like MLB fans, and how Brian Kelly's actions didn't directly result in the death of Declan Sullivan with private payoffs after the fact.

You pointed out two teams more deserving, in your opinion, which really doesn't mean much since you are not part of the committee.

Within the last 20 years, Notre Dame has added over 20K seats to its Stadium and sold out every game for 46 years until the last game of 2019. I will admit that the performance on the field has not lived up to expectations but even still, since 2000, ND has been to 16 bowl games (7 of which are part of the New Year's Six) and has finished the season ranked in the Top Twenty 11 times. Notre Dame being a part of two conferences is a benefit to those conferences as well, otherwise the Big East and ACC would not invite them for partial membership. I don't care about South Bend and I am over 30 years old. You don't think young people root for ND or want to go there? You're wrong.

Brian Kelly was wrong to have required Declan Sullivan to be on that scaffold that day. It was a tragic accident. Do you have any proof of the allegation that there were private payoffs after Declan Sullivan's death. All I know is that ND settled a suit with the State of Indiana for like 40 K for violations of safety regulations, as they should have. My understanding is that the Sullivan family did not seek any compensation for the death of Declan nor have they received any. The University has made payments to a memorial fund in Declan's honor, as have I. That's not a "private payoff".

 

[gbo]

We're good. I just bristle when a program that's, admittedly, at their apex acts like they'll be there forever, and everyone else should bow and scrape in their presence. I think what Dabo has accomplished is remarkable. Unfortunately, despite that success, Clemson is still not a top 15 most-popular program, and therefore that limits the amount the conference can command in media dollars.

I wish FSU and Miami had kept up their promise of being additional football pillars of the conference, but clearly they haven't, and that's been a problem.

The reality, whether people want to admit it or not, is that the ACC is simply not as valuable as the SEC and B10. At the same time, ACC schools make a ton of money, plenty enough to well-fund their athletic departments. If a school feels compelled to leave because they need another $10-15M/year so they can buy PS5s and hire 14 more S&C coaches, that's their choice.

I see what you're saying. I did not mean for it to come across like that.

I agree with you. Fact is we are a mostly small alumni/fanbase conference that does not care as much about sports as others. That was fine for a long time but I'm just afraid we're all going to get left behind.

I've probably been a little irrational with my ACC blame since the UT/OU news...

 

[Scooch]

I see what you're saying. I did not mean for it to come across like that.

I agree with you. Fact is we are a mostly small alumni/fanbase conference that does not care as much about sports as others. That was fine for a long time but I'm just afraid we're all going to get left behind.

I've probably been a little irrational with my ACC blame since the UT/OU news...

All good. I just don't think its worth being afraid. Clemson ain't gonna be "left behind". College sports has been in perpetual reorganization for literally seven decades and counting.

I still think the most likely outcome from recent events is that UT/OU go the SEC, and the Remnant 8 either attract a few schools from the AAC to maintain the B12, or the AAC adds a few of them.

Maybe there will be a mega conference (or 2, or 3) someday, who knows? If there is money to be made you can count on those in college athletics to chase it relentlessly and not care at all about the fans.

But, I find it implausible that there will be a future where schools like Clemson (or SU for that matter) are excluded from major college sports.

 

[TheCusian]

Absolutely, no question about it. That is the desired goal for ND. That surely cannot be a surprise to anyone.

(I believe if SU and ND were in reverse positions, so would Syracuse fans)

ND wanted the status quo until 2036. That was the plan before the SEC move.

I think that it still is.

If college football is going to two super conferences (does anyone doubt?), then tell me how and why it is a good idea for ND to join the ACC right now for way less money and then get locked out of those two super conferences?

ND fans think it better to stay independent and then see how this plays out the next ten years or so.

If ND has to sell independence, then it shouldn't agree to sell it right away for the cheapest price.

Selling it right away for the lowest possible price is just plain dumb.

The thought is that if the conferences force ND to surrender, make them pay the highest amount for it.

That is just good business (College football has been a business for one hundred years).

The ACC is the best fit for ND, but at fire sale half off prices? No other school would jump at that.

Now, if the ACC goes out and gets USC, Stanford and Navy to join it and comes to ND with a plan that ESPN says will pay ND close to Big Ten or SEC money, then ND will strongly listen to that and weigh the available options.

That is a bit different than other fans telling ND:

"You need to do this now for much less money because we want you to and because it will help the rest of us out."

Instead of attacking ND or its fans, tell me where I am wrong, how Syracuse would do things differently if it were exactly in ND's shoes right now or how ND joining the ACC right now makes more sense than any other alternative for ND.

Using their power to limit the CFB (8 teams, max 2 teams from 1 conference) while joining the ACC in all sports might stave off the 2 conference problem. Throw in an alliance (PAC12) or add a program that ND would like to play (Navy?).

ND + ACC is a much stronger chip than either alone. Unless you want to join the B1G.

EDIT: I’d personally add 2 of WVU/Houston/UCF along with ND and Navy.

 

[TerryD]

Using their power to limit the CFB (8 teams, max 2 teams from 1 conference) while joining the ACC in all sports might stave off the 2 conference problem. Throw in an alliance (PAC12) or add a program that ND would like to play (Navy?).

ND + ACC is a much stronger chip than either alone. Unless you want to join the B1G.

I think you way overestimate the clout of ND (didn't you guys say for years that ND is but mere shadow of itself and now weakened versus the P5 ??) and the amount of extra money that ND football would bring to the ACC and way underestimate the desire of the SEC, Big Ten, ESPN and Fox to set up two super conferences.

(I don't think ND joining the ACC solves its revenue disparity problem. Lessen it, sure, but not solve it. I think that it is insolvable)

I think that all it would do is lock ND into the same cash disparity that other ACC fans complain about for the next decade and a half.

I think that ND staying the course will do just fine in the future, no matter what happens.

I think that an independent ND is in a better position than most other schools not in the Big Ten or SEC.

At least to me, surrendering to a conference is surrendering to a conference, whether it be the ACC or the Big Ten or the SEC. Surrender is surrender.

The rest is just negotiating details. Might as well put it off as long as possible.

To get ND football to join the ACC, I think that Jim Phillips has to come up with a creative solution that allows ND all of the advantages of being independent (national schedule, rivals in conference, dedicated Saturday afternoon time slots for exposure etc..) and pays ND close to what the SEC and Big Ten get.

Otherwise, I think that ND will just sit this one out.

 

[Alsacs]

Come on man. I'm talking about the revenue disparity. You don't agree with me on who is to blame and that is quite alright, but you have to admit that it is going to be a problem going forward.

I apologize if I have come off as obnoxious in this thread as that was not my intention.

It’s fairly obvious to me that my fanbase really doesn’t get the overall context of where our program stands in college athletics when realignment and expansion is discussed.

We are lucky to be where we are now but it’s not guaranteed and the snark some want to have with us is fine but Notre Dame is the biggest problem as it pertains to sustainability.

 

[TheCusian]

I think you way overestimate the extra money that ND would bring to the ACC and underestimate the desire of the SEC, Big Ten, ESPN and Fox to set up two super conferences.

I think that all it would do is lock ND into the same cash disparity that other ACC fans complain about for the next decade.

If they go on to form 2 mega conferences, you’d think ND would be left out?! C’mon.

Better to take a shot with us than let the B1G have you without a fight

EDIT: *this* is the problem we have with ND always looking out for themselves - it misses that we’d be stronger together. I mean, yeah you can sit it out and ride the next 10 years as an inevitable B1G member or fight like hell with us and then see what happens.

 

[ForCuseSake]

That is a bit different than other fans telling ND:

"You need to do this now for much less money because we want you to and because it will help the rest of us out."

Instead of attacking ND or its fans, tell me where I am wrong, how Syracuse would do things differently if it were exactly in ND's shoes right now or how ND joining the ACC right now makes more sense than any other alternative for ND.

I agree 100% with everything you said about ND decision making and how it should evaluate its options going forward.

Where I think ND fans miss the mark on other ACC school fans is the circular logic loop I will attempt to demonstrate:

ACC School Fan: "ND is a parasite that should do right by the conference and join all or nothing. It would make us more stable and increase each school's media revenue including ND's."***

ND Fan: "It's not about money for Notre Dame, it's about maintaining our independent status."

ACC Fan: "Keeping the status quo will erode the stability of the ACC and could ultimately kill the conference."

ND Fan: "If that happens and we're forced to give up independence we will be sure to sell out to the highest bidder so why should we do it now?"

ACC Fan: "I thought it wasn't all about the money for you."

ND Fan: "It isn't...until we're forced to make it so."

*** I don't agree that ND is a parasite, acts in bad faith or any other negative assessment of the institution's business decisions.

It seems a little disingenuous for a Catholic institution to tell its partners, "Hey guys, we've decided we can't support building something with you now because it's guaranteed to be less profitable than what we stand to make in the future."

 

[Alsacs]

Absolutely, no question about it. That is the desired goal for ND. That surely cannot be a surprise to anyone.

(I believe if SU and ND were in reverse positions, so would Syracuse fans)

ND wanted the status quo until 2036. That was the plan before the SEC move.

I think that it still is.

If college football is going to two super conferences (does anyone doubt?), then tell me how and why it is a good idea for ND to join the ACC right now for way less money and then get locked out of those two super conferences?

ND fans think it better to stay independent and then see how this plays out the next ten years or so.

If ND has to sell independence, then it shouldn't agree to sell it right away for the cheapest price.

Selling it right away for the lowest possible price is just plain dumb.

The thought is that if the conferences force ND to surrender, make them pay the highest amount for it.

That is just good business (College football has been a business for one hundred years).

The ACC is the best fit for ND, but at fire sale half price, locked in for 15 more years in a volatile, changing marketplace?

No other school would jump at that. Pitch that one to Penn State or Ohio State.

Now, if the ACC goes out and gets USC, Stanford and Navy to join it and comes to ND with a plan that ESPN says will pay ND close to Big Ten or SEC money, then ND will strongly listen to that and weigh the available options.

That is a bit different than other fans telling ND:

"You need to do this now for much less money because we want you to (and we will still hate you either way, as seen by this thread) and because it will help the rest of us out."

Instead of attacking ND or its fans, tell me where I am wrong, how Syracuse would do things differently if it were exactly in ND's shoes right now or how ND joining the ACC right now makes more sense than any other alternative for ND.

Where have I said what ND should choose to do?
It’s fairly obvious to me that just letting the status quo remain is the clearly the wrong thing to do. Actually making ND make a decision is the correct thing to do.

The status quo doesn’t save the ACC.

 

[Scooch]

It’s fairly obvious to me that my fanbase really doesn’t get the overall context of where our program stands in college athletics when realignment and expansion is discussed.

We are lucky to be where we are now but it’s not guaranteed and the snark some want to have with us is fine but Notre Dame is the biggest problem as it pertains to sustainability.

Yeah, we're all a bunch of rubes. None of us understand this stuff at all.

I mean, seriously?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

All good. I just don't think its worth being afraid. Clemson ain't gonna be "left behind". College sports has been in perpetual reorganization for literally seven decades and counting.

I still think the most likely outcome from recent events is that UT/OU go the SEC, and the Remnant 8 either attract a few schools from the AAC to maintain the B12, or the AAC adds a few of them.

Maybe there will be a mega conference (or 2, or 3) someday, who knows? If there is money to be made you can count on those in college athletics to chase it relentlessly and not care at all about the fans.

But, I find it implausible that there will be a future where schools like Clemson (or SU for that matter) are excluded from major college sports.

If they still own the Big 8 name, Sugar Bowl, and can still have a CCG then why not stay together at 8? West Virginia would still stick out like a sore thumb though.

For FB having only 7 conference games allows for flexibility. KU can play OOC multiple teams from Colorado, Nebraska, Mizzou, Oklahoma. A 9 team schedule means you can only play one of those. All the conference teams would offer Notre Dame scheduling flexibility as well. It might be advantageous to be the 5th best conference and have OOC games available for the top 4 conferences.

Those 8 schools make for a good BBall league. Adding travel and worse BBall programs will displease KU. Having 14 conference games allows a wide range of OOC games to against old rivals. It also allows you to play stronger OOC schedules.

The is no B12 network so TV is only Tier 1/2. Inventory isn't as big a deal.

 

[elimunelson]

It’s fairly obvious to me that my fanbase really doesn’t get the overall context of where our program stands in college athletics when realignment and expansion is discussed.

We are lucky to be where we are now but it’s not guaranteed and the snark some want to have with us is fine but Notre Dame is the biggest problem as it pertains to sustainability.

It's myopic to look at anything like that. We're not lucky to be anywhere. The school stands on its own and a period of football malaise isn't going to define the value of a university over 50 year windows. A conference looking to add someone isn't going to be looking at our 10 year ACC run and be like, "nope not worth it".

Syracuse will be fine regardless of the fact we don't descend upon a conference that gets the highest payday. If we can't run a sports operation with ~35mm coming in from television then John Wildhack needs to be fired. Student athletes will continue coming and will get alot more out of Syracuse than Syracuse gets out of them b/c it's a dynamic place to go to school.

Like I said in a prior thread, i'd be fine if the school realizes that it should be with its original big east basketball brethren and can survive as an eastern independent again with some sort of direct to consumer streaming app along with selling games to teams and having networks pick ala carte games to broadcast. I'm still gonna watch if we're in the ACC, independent, Ivy League, Premier League, League of Legends, etc.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

It’s fairly obvious to me that my fanbase really doesn’t get the overall context of where our program stands in college athletics when realignment and expansion is discussed.

We are lucky to be where we are now but it’s not guaranteed and the snark some want to have with us is fine but Notre Dame is the biggest problem as it pertains to sustainability.

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself

 

[Alsacs]

Yeah, we're all a bunch of rubes. None of us understand this stuff at all.

I mean, seriously?

Where the hell did I say you individually. Cry more.
Our fanbase as a whole doesn’t get it but please make this post.

 

[Alsacs]

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself

No offense but Miami is always going to be more coveted than Syracuse when the conferences discussing expansion debate team.

Same for Pitt.

 

[TerryD]

Where have I said what ND should choose to do?
It’s fairly obvious to me that just letting the status quo remain is the clearly the wrong thing to do. Actually making ND make a decision is the correct thing to do.

The status quo doesn’t save the ACC.

It is not the duty of ND to "save" the ACC.

It is not ND's duty to do something that is against its position, status and best interest in order to save a conference, any conference.

That is what you keep missing. Why don't the other 14 schools "save" the ACC ??

Why doesn't Clemson and FSU agree to sign a deal to stay forever in the ACC no matter what, no matter what cash offer they get from the SEC or Big Ten ??

That would save the ACC. Why doesn't anyone demand that?

Why doesn't Syracuse, Pitt and BC shave off ten million a year that it gets from the ACC and donate it to keep FSU, Clemson et al from wanting to leave?

That might save the ACC.

Why not get everyone ("One for all and all for one") in the ACC to just increase the exit fee and extend the GOR another ten years ?

Why is it ND's "duty" to do something that it doesn't want to do at all, for the least amount of money, to "save" the ACC ?

The ACC needs to save itself. It needs to come up with its own solution, then convince ND that it makes better sense than what ND is currently doing.

The ACC has failed miserably at that so far.

Just saying over and over "We want you to do this to save us and we will hate you if you don't" ain't cutting it.