Texas, Oklahoma reach out to the SEC

[TerryD]

If ND joins the ACC, you have a conference that is on par with the B1G and can renegotiate a mega-deal with networks.

You’re not joining the SEC, and like it or not, but they will own college sports. So it’s either of the two lesser conferences: ACC, B1G or Independence… and in this landscape, Independence is going to get tougher and tougher.

You can act like the ACC needs to do all these things, but more than likely, the ACC will either wait y’all out if/until it becomes too difficult to remain Independent or the ACC eventually falls and you have to join the B1G.

Then it appears that it may be the Big Ten, damn them.

ND will wait out the GOR in that circumstance, then join the Big Ten with Virginia, North Carolina, Clemson or whoever else the Big Ten can attract from the ACC.

I would rather ND be doomed to that football conference membership in 10-15 years than jettison independence now for an inferior deal.

 

[SU94]

Why is it ND's "duty" to do something that it doesn't want to do at all, for the least amount of money, to "save" the ACC?

Well, as much as i respect Notre Dame (and I do -- sorry Alsacs, maybe I am the problem), let's remember that Navy chipped in to help ND's plight during WWII. It did not have to, but did so and created a dynamic that was mutually beneficial in the present and well into the future (although you've never played in Annapolis, which is utterly ridiculous).

You'd think that ND might remember Navy's gesture and really contemplate the spirit of "playing that forward," as they say.

Sometimes, I think ND's independence is just code for single mindedness. Lots of one-way streets in South Bend evidently, which is your right. But is it right and proper?

Notre Dame has an institutional status that is remarkable, actually. To read its history almost seems like far-flung fiction, but it is real (outside of maybe Rudy).

Acknowledging all of that, it might be time to evolve, as Notre Dame already has in so many ways.

Think about it. In the last 30-40 years ...

• Your Irish started playing in bowl games, that did not used to happen.
• Touchdown Jesus, a focal point of your impressive campus, can now barely be see it from the Stadium because of the additional seats added for the sake of revenue.
• Your surface of your sacred and historic field, once natural grass, is now field turf. Done out of practicality.
• Your play night games at Notre Dame Stadium with some regularity. This did not happen until 1982. Why? Money and exposure.
• At different times, your program has sworn off games against Miami, Michigan and Northwestern, but since them, after some common sense kicked in and it became obvious these games were actually good for your program and football in general.
• You now occasionally allow fifth-year players to compete. That was an institutional no-no for a long, long time.
• You started playing MAC programs in 2010. That was a non-starter in the past.
• Meanwhile, your other athletic programs, once fiercely independent, have joined a conference and nothing has been lost, only gained.

An abundance of pride, Terry, is a dangerous drug. Some call it arrogance or conceit and it is part of the human condition. It is better and healthier to share and be part of something, ... to be social, to converse and associate with people or groups with similar goals and aspirations. To become stronger as a unit. To form a conference.

All this is overly poetic on my end, but the point is that Notre Dame has changed through time. Further change can enact positive energy for others and it is high time for Notre Dame to consider the plight of not only the 14 other ACC programs, but the college game all together.

There are going to be A LOT of program (potentially even our Syracuse University) that are going to have to self-reflect and decide if having a top-tier college football program is feasible. Some of these programs will likely decide to drop the sport, which is not a good development for anyone (I am not talking about SU here, but rather a number of FBS schools who will be suffer with this new CFB model that is driven almost entirely by the SEC and the Big 10 (a group that you do not trust).

All of this is about 2-3 games a season. Think about that. You play five, sometimes six, anyhow. And let's not act like you are not getting anything from the deal. You're getting exposure from the most important, wealthiest, and student rich sector of the country. The Atlantic Coast, from Massachusetts to Florida.

So much good can come from one gesture, one handshake. Two sides can become one.

I know what Navy would do if the tables were turned.

 

[Hoo's That]

It seems like deemphasizing football was Donna Shalala’s plan to help improve the academic perception of Miami. It seems to have worked, but Miami has never lost fewer than 3 games since joining the ACC.

Yes, Shalala enhanced Foote's program to raise the academics at Miami by giving less slack to the football team As someone has said, "Now they're Miami and no longer Da U." The hard-core Da U fans will never forgive her for it.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If ND joins the ACC, you have a conference that is on par with the B1G and can renegotiate a mega-deal with networks.

You’re not joining the SEC, and like it or not, but they will own college sports. So it’s either of the two lesser conferences: ACC, B1G or Independence… and in this landscape, Independence is going to get tougher and tougher.

You can act like the ACC needs to do all these things, but more than likely, the ACC will either wait y’all out if/until it becomes too difficult to remain Independent or the ACC eventually falls and you have to join the B1G.

Notre Dame should really spearhead the ACC, P12, B12 leftovers merger. They get to keep USC, play games in California, Texas, Florida, and the Northeast. It is the national schedule that they crave. Also they would be the big dog in conference. That wouldn't be the case in the B1G.

 

[tep624]

Their brand is ahead of ours but not miles. The point is they CANNOT get into a conference based on their brand. In fact their brand would get worse the minute they enter the conference as they will be a bottom feeder. So they will need to be chosen because of other factors, not football. That is where SU is the better choice.

The B1G has Western PA covered with Ohio State and Penn State. Adding Pitt will not open up Western PA to the B1G any more than it already is.

If the SEC wanted to go further North, then Pitt will be chosen over us 110%. I don't think the SEC will ever do so.

So it put it this way...

B1G expansion SU is slightly ahead of Pitt as a choice. Whether or not the B1G ever gets down to making this choice is another question.

SEC expansion Pitt is well ahead of SU as a choice. It is highly unlikely that the SEC ever gets down to this choice.

So realistically SU has a better chance at getting into the P2 than Pitt.

Brands are secondary to markets. You can build a brand. Good luck building a market. So dead on in that respect. With any discussion on conference expansion that should be the first topic in mind when considering prospective schools.

 

[Hoo's That]

To lighten things up a bit - The Big XII meets about the situation.

 

[KaiserUEO]

1 thing that has become very clear to me, in addition to how the B1G won this round.

is just how small and stupid texas is.

alsacs tells us that espn basically grabbed them by the ear, told them to get okie, to leave the bevo and led them to the SEC.

ND basically has NBC AND THE ACC by the ear and could lead them around, but basically chooses not to because like the B1G, they always win anyway and enjoy the status quo.

 

[Hoo's That]

... and Texas attends its first meeting of the SEC.

 

[nd1973]

Notre Dame should really spearhead the ACC, P12, B12 leftovers merger. They get to keep USC, play games in California, Texas, Florida, and the Northeast. It is the national schedule that they crave. Also they would be the big dog in conference. That wouldn't be the case in the B1G.

Agreed.

 

[TheCusian]

I think you way overestimate the clout of ND (didn't you guys say for years that ND is but mere shadow of itself and now weakened versus the P5 ??) and the amount of extra money that ND football would bring to the ACC and way underestimate the desire of the SEC, Big Ten, ESPN and Fox to set up two super conferences.

(I don't think ND joining the ACC solves its revenue disparity problem. Lessen it, sure, but not solve it. I think that it is insolvable)

I think that all it would do is lock ND into the same cash disparity that other ACC fans complain about for the next decade and a half.

I think that ND staying the course will do just fine in the future, no matter what happens.

I think that an independent ND is in a better position than most other schools not in the Big Ten or SEC.

At least to me, surrendering to a conference is surrendering to a conference, whether it be the ACC or the Big Ten or the SEC. Surrender is surrender.

The rest is just negotiating details. Might as well put it off as long as possible.

To get ND football to join the ACC, I think that Jim Phillips has to come up with a creative solution that allows ND all of the advantages of being independent (national schedule, rivals in conference, dedicated Saturday afternoon time slots for exposure etc..) and pays ND close to what the SEC and Big Ten get.

Otherwise, I think that ND will just sit this one out.

You’ll be in the same cash disparity anyways, at least this way you fight. You are in a better spot than most individual ACC schools, but not as a group.

Texas and Oklahoma proved that if you need to get out of a conference, you can. It’s not locked into a cash disparity. It’s banding together to push the thing in our direction. You’re giving up and giving the SEC and B1G the keys (maybe you don’t mind!)

If you see it as surrendering, there’s no use as you see it wrong. It remains a weird tic, a bygone obsession. Like I’ve said it made sense when your NBC payout was the envy of every individual school, but now it’s empty.

Anyways, I tried. Guess surrender is your only option lol.

 

[TerryD]

Well, as much as i respect Notre Dame (and I do -- sorry Alsacs, maybe I am the problem), let's remember that Navy chipped in to help ND's plight during WWII. It did not have to, but did so and created a dynamic that was mutually beneficial in the present and well into the future (although you've never played in Annapolis, which is utterly ridiculous).

You'd think that ND might remember Navy's gesture and really contemplate the spirit of "playing that forward," as they say.

Sometimes, I think ND's independence is just code for single mindedness. Lots of one-way streets in South Bend evidently, which is your right. But is it right and proper?

Notre Dame has an institutional status that is remarkable, actually. To read its history almost seems like far-flung fiction, but it is real (outside of maybe Rudy).

Acknowledging all of that, it might be time to evolve, as Notre Dame already has in so many ways.

Think about it. In the last 30-40 years ...

• Your Irish started playing in bowl games, that did not used to happen.
• Touchdown Jesus, a focal point of your impressive campus, can now barely be see it from the Stadium because of the additional seats added for the sake of revenue.
• Your surface of your sacred and historic field, once natural grass, is now field turf. Done out of practicality.
• Your play night games at Notre Dame Stadium with some regularity. This did not happen until 1982. Why? Money and exposure.
• At different times, your program has sworn off games against Miami, Michigan and Northwestern, but since them, after some common sense kicked in and it became obvious these games were actually good for your program and football in general.
• You now occasionally allow fifth-year players to compete. That was an institutional no-no for a long, long time.
• You started playing MAC programs in 2010. That was a non-starter in the past.
• Meanwhile, your other athletic programs, once fiercely independent, have joined a conference and nothing has been lost, only gained.

An abundance of pride, Terry, is a dangerous drug. Some call it arrogance or conceit and it is part of the human condition. It is better and healthier to share and be part of something, ... to be social, to converse and associate with people or groups with similar goals and aspirations. To become stronger as a unit. To form a conference.

All this is overly poetic on my end, but the point is that Notre Dame has changed through time. Further change can enact positive energy for others and it is high time for Notre Dame to consider the plight of not only the 14 other ACC programs, but the college game all together.

There are going to be A LOT of program (potentially even our Syracuse University) that are going to have to self-reflect and decide if having a top-tier college football program is feasible. Some of these programs will likely decide to drop the sport, which is not a good development for anyone (I am not talking about SU here, but rather a number of FBS schools who will be suffer with this new CFB model that is driven almost entirely by the SEC and the Big 10 (a group that you do not trust).

All of this is about 2-3 games a season. Think about that. You play five, sometimes six, anyhow. And let's not act like you are not getting anything from the deal. You're getting exposure from the most important, wealthiest, and student rich sector of the country. The Atlantic Coast, from Massachusetts to Florida.

So much good can come from one gesture, one handshake. Two sides can become one.

I know what Navy would do if the tables were turned.

Lol, ND agreed to play Navy as long as the latter wants in gratitude for Navy's help in World War II.

In case you don't know, its Navy's choice to never play ND in Annapolis, not ND's.

Navy can sell more tickets in pro stadiums in big cities (and keep the money) than it can if it plays ND at home.

So, your high horseness about Navy is completely misplaced and you don't know as much about Navy and ND as you think that you do.

ND doesn't want to play Navy every year, (hates the option and cut blocks) but does so out of obligation and a handshake agreement made in the 1940's.

(I, for one, thinks that "debt" has been paid over and again)

Your post doesn't address ACC "arrogance" in wanting ND to do something that benefits the former more than the latter.

Maybe North Carolina (who has done more to put the ACC in this bad position than anyone with its basketball first leadership and decisions) should reduce its ACC payments in half to help the others out.

Or, North Carolina and Duke could drop out of the ACC for football and stay for basketball, and reduce their payouts accordingly.

After all, that would be reparations for the damage that Tobacco Road has done the ACC (John Swofford, anyone?) and let the football schools get a bigger payout.

Wouldn't that help the ACC stay together?

After all, why isn't it time for North Carolina to change over time. ??

NC would not do what you are asking ND to do if their positions were reversed.

 

[MikeSU02]

They're definitely more relevant.

Where I first lived, New Berlin, NY, has a Stewart's.

More dead than alive and more cows than people in that town.

It was so small, I had to be born in Cooperstown.

 

[TheCusian]

It is not the duty of ND to "save" the ACC.

It is not ND's duty to do something that is against its position, status and best interest in order to save a conference, any conference.

That is what you keep missing. Why don't the other 14 schools "save" the ACC ??

Why doesn't Clemson and FSU agree to sign a deal to stay forever in the ACC no matter what, no matter what cash offer they get from the SEC or Big Ten ??

That would save the ACC. Why doesn't anyone demand that?

Why doesn't Syracuse, Pitt and BC shave off ten million a year that it gets from the ACC and donate it to keep FSU, Clemson et al from wanting to leave?

That might save the ACC.

Why not get everyone ("One for all and all for one") in the ACC to just increase the exit fee and extend the GOR another ten years ?

Why is it ND's "duty" to do something that it doesn't want to do at all, for the least amount of money, to "save" the ACC ?

The ACC needs to save itself. It needs to come up with its own solution, then convince ND that it makes better sense than what ND is currently doing.

The ACC has failed miserably at that so far.

Just saying over and over "We want you to do this to save us and we will hate you if you don't" ain't cutting it.

If you think joining a conference is you giving up your status - that’s a 100% arrogant as hell opinion. As well as false.

A great example of the hubris that gives you guys a bad name.

You’re right in that it’s not your duty. It’s just the best way to avoid joining the SEC or B1G - while the status quo confirms it.

 

[TheCusian]

Answer: No.

Nobody at ND cares if other fans are tired of its status quo. Nobody. None.

If you want the status quo to end, somebody needs to come up with something clearly much better for ND, then convince them that is so.

Like I said, the ACC and the 14 other schools have so far failed miserably at this.

If this is a microcosm of the conversations between the ACC and ND, I’d kick you all out of everything and just fight without you. Not worth it.

It’s like a guy cornered by two bullies and not helping because maybe the bully will win and get blood on your nice clothes. It’s something, but it ain’t honorable or respectable.

 

[Scooch]

Fun fact: The ACC media deal that you guys think is so awful, would be worse without ND.

But hey, maybe Cincinnati and WVU would solve that. I mean, I'm sure they would.

 

[TheCusian]

But ACC fans still want ND to do what it doesn't want to do at all, and for the lowest possible price.

To me, that is arrogance.

This is what I keep seeing:

"I don't like the status quo so I demand that ND jettison independence, do it right now and take less money for it against its best interests because I say so and because it will help the school I root for."

Look, it seems inevitable to me that two super conferences will form and that ND will ultimately have to join one, no matter what.

Everything else seems to be re-arranging deck chairs until that inevitable day.

So, the best idea for ND seems to be for football to remain independent, to ride it out, to make sure ND is in its strongest and most flexible position, then pick the best one of the super conferences, not join the current ACC in football (especially not right now for half the payout and be locked into an even longer GOR).

I am sorry that is an unpopular opinion, but the ACC needs to do a better job than it has been doing, not ask ND to give up things to save it.

I strongly believe that neither Syracuse nor North Carolina nor any other school would do what you are asking if it were in ND's place.

The ACC needs to get creative. Convince Southern Cal, Stanford, Navy and two other schools to join it with ND, become a true coast to coast national conference, then get ESPN to agree that if ND joins, the payout will equal or be very close to SEC and Big Ten money.

I think that this is the job of the ACC to put together, not ND's job.

To me, that should be the pathway to getting ND to jettison independence, not to say we are tired of the status quo and that ND needs to do this to "save" the ACC from itself or we will be mad at you.

Only then can ND and the ACC have a real business discussion about ND dumping independence and joining the ACC.

This is silly. Why do you think you’ll make less money in the ACC than on your own?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Agreed.

In a 32 team conference with eight 4 team pods, over a ten year period they would play:

BC, Pitt, Miami, USC every year
One additional game in Florida (FSU), so 6 total
Three additional games in California (UCLA, Stanford, Cal), so 8 total
Two games in Texas (Texas Tech, Houston)

And they would still have 3 OOC games per year to schedule Navy, Michigan, Purdue, Northwestern, Michigan State, Texas, etc.

 

[TerryD]

If you think joining a conference is you giving up your status - that’s a 100% arrogant as hell opinion. As well as false.

A great example of the hubris that gives you guys a bad name.

You’re right in that it’s not your duty. It’s just the best way to avoid joining the SEC or B1G - while the status quo confirms it.

The status that I refer to is football independence.

ND strongly does not want to give that up. Others want it to, on the cheap as well.

 

[FAL]

Gor /ˈɡɔːr/ is the fictional setting for a series of sword and planet novels written by philosophy professor John Lange, writing as John Norman. The setting was first described in the 1966 novel Tarnsman of Gor. The series is inspired by science fantasy pulp fiction works by Edgar Rice Burroughs (such as the Barsoom series). It also includes erotica and philosophy content.

Kaor!
Fan of both back in the day…

 

[TerryD]

This is silly. Why do you think you’ll make less money in the ACC than on your own?

Because the ACC payouts from partial membership and the ACC Network are set in contract, no matter what ND does before the ACC is gone.

Because ND's TV deal comes up in 2025, without a GOR, rather than in 2036 or later (if football joins, ESPN will want a longer GOR) with a GOR.

Because ND can put the contract on the open market in a few years, and get NBC, CBS, ESPN and maybe Amazon to bid on it.

Because the payout doesn't have to satisfy 14 or 15 schools, just ND.

 

[TheCusian]

Then it appears that it may be the Big Ten, damn them.

ND will wait out the GOR in that circumstance, then join the Big Ten with Virginia, North Carolina, Clemson or whoever else the Big Ten can attract from the ACC.

I would rather ND be doomed to that football conference membership in 10-15 years than jettison independence now for an inferior deal.

What is inferior? You’ll make more as an ACC member for 10 years, then *if* we implode you’ll make even more in the B1G. You’re choosing assured ACC destruction and less money - that’s the inferior deal.

 

[nd1973]

In a 32 team conference with eight 4 team pods, over a ten year period they would play:

BC, Pitt, Miami, USC every year
One additional game in Florida (FSU), so 6 total
Three additional games in California (UCLA, Stanford, Cal), so 8 total
Two games in Texas (Texas Tech, Houston)

And they would still have 3 OOC games per year to schedule Navy, Michigan, Purdue, Northwestern, Michigan State, Texas, etc.

That type of forward thinking is what the ACC needs. But they usually stay within a very narrow box and limit themselves. Plus, ESPN whispers sexy things and throws a few more bucks at them and the ACC goes back to their corner.

 

[TheCusian]

The status that I refer to is football independence.

ND strongly does not want to give that up. Others want it to, on the cheap as well.

Football independence is a mirage and good feelings and not much else lol

 

[Alsacs]

Fun fact: The ACC media deal that you guys think is so awful, would be worse without ND.

But hey, maybe Cincinnati and WVU would solve that. I mean, I'm sure they would.

I don’t want either Cincinnati or WVU.
Your statement doesn’t account for that Swofford made a chit deal in 2010.
That necessitated the expansion to just get the payments back to solid.
Notre Dame had nothing to do with Swofford screwing the entire ACC with a bad deal so he could protect Raycom.

Swofford is responsible for the payouts for the ACC being terrible for ESPN to give more money they got a lot more years of control of ACC content.

But let’s praise Notre Dame because without them the ACC current deal is so much worse.
Bravo.

 

[TerryD]

What is inferior? You’ll make more as an ACC member for 10 years, then *if* we implode you’ll make even more in the B1G. You’re choosing assured ACC destruction and less money - that’s the inferior deal.

Sorry, but I don't think that is the case. I think ND football is better for the indefinite future on its own.