The alliance scheduling agreement already looks dead in football

[Alsacs]

That's mostly true. In reality, the Big12 has several potent athletic departments and is competitively equal to the ACC. The ACC standing alone against playoff expansion in the vain hope of forcing Notre Dame to join has really hurt the conference, it has built up some bad will and resentment across the country. They need to get a new plan.

See my last post

 

[Alsacs]

The ACC needs ND’s hand forced without the ACC doing it.

Have the SEC do it.
Back channel with ESPN to do it.

Let ND go to the B1G if they don’t want in the ACC but it would finally end this chit.

 

[CousCuse]

See my last post

That has some viability. Should have went with the SEC in the first place instead of being used by the B1G, it was weak.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If the ACC got a commitment from ND as 15 then the conference should pick whomever ND wanted as 16 no matter the school.

With ND and those other brands the conference would get a major pay increase.

Cincinnati or Toledo it wouldn’t matter.

Cincinnati if they were valuable would have been picked over Louisville in 2011.

UCF is FS1 to FSU ESPN.

FSU has a 30 year head start. UCF will win a couple of battles but the war is over. UCF will never bring value for a network or ratings for TV.

FSU has fans across the country because of previous success.
UCF will never.

Cous UMass talk is pure trolling. He does it for schtick now to rile people up.

The ACC isn’t expanding.

If ND committed honestly let them pick the 16th team it would be financially worth it.

WVU isn’t getting into the ACC. The cyber rattling their fanbase did had impact and while academics aren’t really anything WVU won’t happen.

If ND has already committed then why would you let them pick? If you are using the pick as a carrot fine, but if they already said yes it is a dumb move.

Ok so brand and quality have no value, Cincy and Toledo are the same. Louisville had more value in 2012 than Cincy did. That doesn't mean Cincy has no value as #16 today.

No one is saying UCF will become FSU, but they could easily become like Louisville or GA Tech. That has value. You add a good TV market. You add a school that has 60k students and plenty of future alumni. It is a long term play based demographics. You also put more roots in Florida which will help in recruiting. Not so much vs the SEC or major programs but definitely over the mid to lower level P5 schools. Why leave them in the B12 where they will take talent away from the ACC and attention to football in Florida.

 

[Hoo's That]

If ND joins the ACC, we don't need a 16th team by using a 2-6-6 scheduling system. We stay at 8 conference games so the teams with SEC last-game rivalries are still happy and we don't have to take in another mouth to feed that doesn't bring any more eyes to screens than ND already does.

BC - ND, SU
SU - BC, Pitt
Pitt - SU, Louisville
Louisville - Pitt, VPI
VPI - Louisville, UVa
UVa - VPI, UNC
UNC - UVa, Duke
Duke - UNC, GA Tech
GA Tech - Duke, Wake
Wake - GA Tech, NC State
NC State - Wake, Clemson (They'll whine about this from now until doomsday, but that's life.)
Clemson - NC State, FSU
FSU - Clemson, Miami
Miami - FSU, ND
ND - Miami, BC

The requirement for divisions is on its last legs because the SEC and B1G have now realized the advantages of 3-5-5 for their own teams and have finally given up on the idea that the ACC will implode.

 

[baggerbob]

Cincy and WVU would leave in a NY minute for the ACC

And both have tradition in football and basketball. Regardless of how some people feel about WVU football fans it would benefit the ACC.
Cincinnati and West Virginia are a better fit with Pitt, Syracuse, and BC.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The ACC needs ND’s hand forced without the ACC doing it.

Have the SEC do it.
Back channel with ESPN to do it.

Let ND go to the B1G if they don’t want in the ACC but it would finally end this chit.

The only way to force ND's hand is for the ACC to end the 5 game agreement and for the P5 schools to all go 9+1, and even then it might not be enough. You might need to have scheduling agreements on top of that (agree to 2 games vs each conference). If the pool of P5 OOC games is limited to where ND cannot get 10 games scheduled, they will have a harder time making it as an at large. Then they would be open to joining a conference.

Saying that you need to be in a conference to get an at large bid is silly.

If ACC had the 4 SEC games plus an additional 2 SEC games, 2 B1G games, 2 B12 games, and 2 P12 games, then there would only be 2 open slots left.

If the B12 had the 1 B1G game, 1 P12 game, 1 SEC game plus an additional 2 B1G games, additional 2 P12 games, additional 2 SEC games, and 2 ACC game, then there would be only 1 slot open.

If the B1G had the 1 B12 game plus an additional 2 B12 games, 2 ACC games, 2 P12 games, and 2 SEC games, then there would be 5 slots left.

If the P12 had the 2 ND games, 1 B12 game plus 2 additional B12 games, 2 ACC games, 2 B1G games, and 2 SEC games, then there would be only 1 open slot left.

If the SEC had the 4 ACC games, 1 B12 game plus and additional 2 ACC games, an additional 2 B12 games, 2 B1G games, and 2 P12 games, then there would be only 3 open slots left.

So there would only be 12 teams looking for a 10th game. For ND to get to 10 P5 games they would need to convince 8 of those 12 to play them, or convince a team to take on an 11th P5 game. ND could still make this work but it wouldn't be easy. Is that enough to convince them to join? I think it would be given that their other sports are looking at the Big East.

 

[baggerbob]

If ND joins the ACC, we don't need a 16th team by using a 2-6-6 scheduling system. We stay at 8 conference games so the teams with SEC last-game rivalries are still happy and we don't have to take in another mouth to feed that doesn't bring any more eyes to screens than ND already does.

BC - ND, SU
SU - BC, Pitt
Pitt - SU, Louisville
Louisville - Pitt, VPI
VPI - Louisville, UVa
UVa - VPI, UNC
UNC - UVa, Duke
Duke - UNC, GA Tech
GA Tech - Duke, Wake
Wake - GA Tech, NC State
NC State - Wake, Clemson (They'll whine about this from now until doomsday, but that's life.)
Clemson - NC State, FSU
FSU - Clemson, Miami
Miami - FSU, ND
ND - Miami, BC

The requirement for divisions is on its last legs because the SEC and B1G have now realized the advantages of 3-5-5 for their own teams and have finally given up on the idea that the ACC will implode.

ND is never joining the ACC, just leave that fantasy alone. Go to 16. Grab Cincinnati, and West Virginia. Lock down the East Coast, and get into the Mid West for the Big 10 taking Maryland.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If ND joins the ACC, we don't need a 16th team by using a 2-6-6 scheduling system. We stay at 8 conference games so the teams with SEC last-game rivalries are still happy and we don't have to take in another mouth to feed that doesn't bring any more eyes to screens than ND already does.

BC - ND, SU
SU - BC, Pitt
Pitt - SU, Louisville
Louisville - Pitt, VPI
VPI - Louisville, UVa
UVa - VPI, UNC
UNC - UVa, Duke
Duke - UNC, GA Tech
GA Tech - Duke, Wake
Wake - GA Tech, NC State
NC State - Wake, Clemson (They'll whine about this from now until doomsday, but that's life.)
Clemson - NC State, FSU
FSU - Clemson, Miami
Miami - FSU, ND
ND - Miami, BC

The requirement for divisions is on its last legs because the SEC and B1G have now realized the advantages of 3-5-5 for their own teams and have finally given up on the idea that the ACC will implode.

That is a fair point. Having 15 teams is a bit of a pain in FB and BBall but it can work, as it has for BBall.

The problem is someone is having a bye in week 10, another in week 11, and another in week 12. That sucks for those 3 schools. Having to go 9 or 10 or 11 weeks without a bye.

Last game of the year in week 13 you can have the below so no one has a bye.

Notre Dame vs USC
SU vs BC
Pitt vs Miami
UVA vs VA Tech
UNC vs NC State
Duke vs Wake
Louisville vs UK
Clemson vs South Carolina
GA Tech vs UGA
FSU vs Florida

 

[JimBoston]

Unfortunately, the SEC and Big 10 have pulled away financially from everyone else in college athletics and they don't need to help schools from other conferences which is why the concept of an Alliance never really made sense. The Big 10 is the North conference and the SEC is the South conference and probably every school that is not in the SEC or Big 10 would gladly accept an invitation to join.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If every conference gets an auto bid then I think you need to go to at least a 16 team playoff, 12 isn't enough. I would then give the Top 4 a double bye. The teams that sneak into the playoff should need to play their way in.

So this year:

1. Bama vs winner of...
8. Baylor vs winner of...
9. Michigan State vs 16. Northern Illinois (nice regional matchup)

2. Michigan vs winner of...
7. Ole Miss vs winner of...
10. Okie State vs 15. UTSA (nice regional matchup)

3. UGA vs winner of...
6. Notre Dame vs winner of...
11. Utah vs 14. Utah State (in state battle)

4. Cincy vs winner of... (potential in state battle or regional with Pitt)
5. Ohio State vs winner of... (potential regional battle with Pitt)
12. Pitt vs 13. Louisiana

Or if you want to reward conference champs and make the at larges earn it then you can have a 1st four like in the NCAAT. That helps Utah and Pitt, while hurting Ohio State and Ole Miss.

1. Bama vs winner of...
8. Pitt vs winner of... (potential regional battle with Ohio State)
9. Ohio State vs Okie State

2. Michigan vs winner of... (potential Rose vs Utah or rematch vs Michigan State)
7. Utah vs winner of...
10. Ole Miss vs Michigan State

3. UGA vs winner of...
6. Notre Dame vs winner of... (potential regional vs NIU)
11. Louisiana vs Northern Illinois

4. Cincy vs winner of...
5. Baylor vs winner of... (potential in state vs UTSA)
12. Utah State vs UTSA

Yes, this sets up a potential Michigan vs Michigan State rematch, but the latter would need to win at Ole Miss and at Utah to get there.

The bigger draw back IMO is that the 4 seed has the easiest road to the semis, and the 1 seed has it pretty hard.

 

[Alsacs]

If every conference gets an auto bid then I think you need to go to at least a 16 team playoff, 12 isn't enough. I would then give the Top 4 a double bye. The teams that sneak into the playoff should need to play their way in.

So this year:

1. Bama vs winner of...
8. Baylor vs winner of...
9. Michigan State vs 16. Northern Illinois (nice regional matchup)

2. Michigan vs winner of...
7. Ole Miss vs winner of...
10. Okie State vs 15. UTSA (nice regional matchup)

3. UGA vs winner of...
6. Notre Dame vs winner of...
11. Utah vs 14. Utah State (in state battle)

4. Cincy vs winner of... (potential in state battle or regional with Pitt)
5. Ohio State vs winner of... (potential regional battle with Pitt)
12. Pitt vs 13. Louisiana

Or if you want to reward conference champs and make the at larges earn it then you can have a 1st four like in the NCAAT. That helps Utah and Pitt, while hurting Ohio State and Ole Miss.

1. Bama vs winner of...
8. Pitt vs winner of... (potential regional battle with Ohio State)
9. Ohio State vs Okie State

2. Michigan vs winner of... (potential Rose vs Utah or rematch vs Michigan State)
7. Utah vs winner of...
10. Ole Miss vs Michigan State

3. UGA vs winner of...
6. Notre Dame vs winner of... (potential regional vs NIU)
11. Louisiana vs Northern Illinois

4. Cincy vs winner of...
5. Baylor vs winner of... (potential in state vs UTSA)
12. Utah State vs UTSA

Yes, this sets up a potential Michigan vs Michigan State rematch, but the latter would need to win at Ole Miss and at Utah to get there.

The bigger draw back IMO is that the 4 seed has the easiest road to the semis, and the 1 seed has it pretty hard.

The 12 team playoff is coming.

The questions are is their going to be a conference cap on bids, are they going to use home fields first round and how many autobids are there and how they are determined.

Also who will have broadcast rights.

The system proposed was to give the top 6 ranked conference champions autobid.

The SEC wants amount of teams uncapped. Big Ten wants a cap.

The ACC opposes the expansion.

ACC leadership needs to realize jt haa to use ESPN’s priority to keep the whole CFB package as leverage and get them to help the conference. ESPN can get the SEC to support something for the ACC.

This is how leveraged is used.
I am fearful ACC leadership won’t do this type of stuff.
You need leadership proactive and not reactionary.
Previous ACC leadership was the latter.

 

[SU94]

I have long wondered why NBC did not get another CFB property to pair with Notre Dame.
It could happen ...

NBC To Make Big Push For Big Ten Media Rights

"If I’m ESPN or Fox, I’m looking over my shoulder because NBC is going to go hard after the Big Ten,” a source told FOS.

frontofficesports.com

 

[NJneer12]

If the ACC got a commitment from ND as 15 then the conference should pick whomever ND wanted as 16 no matter the school.

With ND and those other brands the conference would get a major pay increase.

Cincinnati or Toledo it wouldn’t matter.

Cincinnati if they were valuable would have been picked over Louisville in 2011.

UCF is FS1 to FSU ESPN.

FSU has a 30 year head start. UCF will win a couple of battles but the war is over. UCF will never bring value for a network or ratings for TV.

FSU has fans across the country because of previous success.
UCF will never.

Cous UMass talk is pure trolling. He does it for schtick now to rile people up.

The ACC isn’t expanding.

If ND committed honestly let them pick the 16th team it would be financially worth it.

WVU isn’t getting into the ACC. The cyber rattling their fanbase did had impact and while academics aren’t really anything WVU won’t happen.

It would be Navy

 

[Alsacs]

It would be Navy

I would be fine with that.
Their Olympic sports would have to compete with harder competition.
Annapolis is right in ACC country.

Navy and ND would be grandslams.

I don’t think ND will join though.

 

[tep624]

I would be fine with that.
Their Olympic sports would have to compete with harder competition.
Annapolis is right in ACC country.

Navy and ND would be grandslams.

I don’t think ND will join though.

I don’t either. Navy does give you the Army/Navy game and it also gives a physical presence for the conference in Maryland. Respected academic institution as well. You can do a lot worse.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The 12 team playoff is coming.

The questions are is their going to be a conference cap on bids, are they going to use home fields first round and how many autobids are there and how they are determined.

Also who will have broadcast rights.

The system proposed was to give the top 6 ranked conference champions autobid.

The SEC wants amount of teams uncapped. Big Ten wants a cap.

The ACC opposes the expansion.

ACC leadership needs to realize jt haa to use ESPN’s priority to keep the whole CFB package as leverage and get them to help the conference. ESPN can get the SEC to support something for the ACC.

This is how leveraged is used.
I am fearful ACC leadership won’t do this type of stuff.
You need leadership proactive and not reactionary.
Previous ACC leadership was the latter.

That is fine if it is only Top 6 conf champs but why not let the other 4 join too? If all champs get in then IMO 20 teams is ideal.

They better only give conference champs the Top 4 seeds. Not right to have an at large get a bye even if they are the best team like UGA last year.

1. Bama vs winner of...
8. Okie State vs 9. Michigan State

2. Michigan vs winner of...
7. Notre Dame vs 10. Ole Miss

3. Cincy vs winner of...
6. Ohio State vs 11. Utah

4. Baylor vs winner of...
5. UGA vs 12. Pitt

 

[Alsacs]

That is fine if it is only Top 6 conf champs but why not let the other 4 join too? If all champs get in then IMO 20 teams is ideal.

They better only give conference champs the Top 4 seeds. Not right to have an at large get a bye even if they are the best team like UGA last year.

1. Bama vs winner of...
8. Okie State vs 9. Michigan State

2. Michigan vs winner of...
7. Notre Dame vs 10. Ole Miss

3. Cincy vs winner of...
6. Ohio State vs 11. Utah

4. Baylor vs winner of...
5. UGA vs 12. Pitt

This is the negotiated stuff for CFB expansion and where the ACC can get stuff from the SEC.

The B1G just wants to reign in the SEC influence. The ACC screwed up in retrospect alligning the B1G.

The SEC will blow the system up because they care about winning.
The B1G just wants to limit the SEC.

ACC isn’t going to be either conference. It can be a solid 3rd.
They won’t unless Miami, Clemson, Florida State are all good and really good or Notre Dame joined.

ND wants access to the CFB.
The ACC wants ND to join without them forcing ND to make a decision.

That is where ESPN and SEC could help.

If NBC gets the Big Ten. Then NBC will have ND and Big Ten.

The ACC needs ND’s hand forced.

People have to think like chess in this stuff.
Give the SEC/ESPN what they want they will take care of the ACC.

The Big Ten WILL NEVER HELP the ACC.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I would be fine with that.
Their Olympic sports would have to compete with harder competition.
Annapolis is right in ACC country.

Navy and ND would be grandslams.

I don’t think ND will join though.

The aren't jumping from the Patriot (leaving Army too) to the ACC. Football only is fine, but then you don't fix the odd # of teams in other sports.

Adding Navy non FB would be worse than asking Nova to jump up in FB. The gaps are too big to overcome.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

This is the negotiated stuff for CFB expansion and where the ACC can get stuff from the SEC.

The B1G just wants to reign in the SEC influence. The ACC screwed up in retrospect alligning the B1G.

The SEC will blow the system up because they care about winning.
The B1G just wants to limit the SEC.

ACC isn’t going to be either conference. It can be a solid 3rd.
They won’t unless Miami, Clemson, Florida State are all good and really good or Notre Dame joined.

ND wants access to the CFB.
The ACC wants ND to join without them forcing ND to make a decision.

That is where ESPN and SEC could help.

If NBC gets the Big Ten. Then NBC will have ND and Big Ten.

The ACC needs ND’s hand forced.

People have to think like chess in this stuff.
Give the SEC/ESPN what they want they will take care of the ACC.

The Big Ten WILL NEVER HELP the ACC.

The SEC and B1G will both end up with 3 teams under a 6+6 playoff model. Why do they need to "limit" the SEC?

The ACC can be #3 with only one good team, but it is harder to sustain that position. If they have 2 good teams then they solidify the gap. The ACC has been #3 with just Clemson and that is with Texas and Oklahoma in the B12. It will be easier now. Miami isn't needed.

It is not possible to force ND's hand. Maybe if the P5 broke away at 5x16 but that is it. The more at large bids the better it is for ND.

 

[CousCuse]

If the ACC is serious about forming a real alliance to counter the SEC and the B1G, they should form an alliance with the Big12 and the MWC. That would give them 39+ teams and stretch from the Atlantic to Hawai'i. That is a lot of time zones and a lot of content.

 

[TheCusian]

Most Big 10 schools are already playing 10 P5 teams every year and some play 11. If you go school by school, you can see the problem of mandating B10 schools to play an Alliance game every year. For example, Iowa plays Iowa St. every year out of conference, but the Big 12 is not in the Alliance. Nebraska plays some old Big 8 foes that are not in the Alliance, Oklahoma and Oklahoma St. Also, some Big 10 schools want to play games against schools like Alabama, Georgia, Notre Dame, Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Tennessee,... And, some Big 10 schools play instate schools that are not P5, probably due to some in-state pressures.

That let's them off the hook. It's not that it's not possible. They could play another P5 game. They don't want to. That's the answer.

At some point you're saying "we'd rather play a tune up vs a G5 school than an ACC or PAC12 team" ... if there was the will to do it, they'd make it work. All of the talk of increasing inventory is bunk. If you're an Iowa fan and you already have Iowa St + your B1G 9 game slate - wouldn't it be fun to replace South Dakota State or Nevada with Oregon or Pitt? Wouldn't your TV partners rather see that?

 

[Alsacs]

The SEC and B1G will both end up with 3 teams under a 6+6 playoff model. Why do they need to "limit" the SEC?

The ACC can be #3 with only one good team, but it is harder to sustain that position. If they have 2 good teams then they solidify the gap. The ACC has been #3 with just Clemson and that is with Texas and Oklahoma in the B12. It will be easier now. Miami isn't needed.

It is not possible to force ND's hand. Maybe if the P5 broke away at 5x16 but that is it. The more at large bids the better it is for ND.

If their is no cap on conference teams the SEC will get more bids than B1G on a season by season basis.

The SEC annually gets more top 10 teams.

Wisconsin/Michigan/Penn State annually aren’t at the same level as the secondary SEC teams behind Alabama.

 

[orangecuse]

No, I am assuming that it will be more than it currently is. That plus the ACC partial share plus full ACC Network profits share = More than enough TV/conference money for ND to continue to be independent.

The whole independence thing comes across as incredibly disingenuous. What makes independence so allegedly sacred solely for football, yet not sacred for anything else regarding the institution and its sports teams?

Although you often spew how $$$ really isn't the driving force behind ND's desire to remain independent (again football only) it's somewhat paradoxical considering the fact that football also drives the bus for institutions that play it at such a major level. Coincidental? Of course not.

And, you certainly hit the nail on the head in your partial ACC share, full ACC Network profits and "more than enough money" sentiment. It most certainly is. Especially, when it's combined with ND's lucrative exclusive TV rights deal with NBC and whomever they ink next in their exclusive deal with in the year or two ahead.

It has been documented here in the past why ND doesn't want any part of being in the B!G, and will hold out until it's completely inevitable and where there's no longer another viable alternative. Again, IMO, if ND sincerely valued and helds 'independence' so sacred, then all of its teams would be independent and not affiliated in any conference. But, that's simply not the case, certainly not as long there are enablers as the ACC, etc. and ND gets to have their cake and eat it too.

I'm clearly in the camp of forcing ND's hand.

The ACC needs ND’s hand forced without the ACC doing it.

Have the SEC do it.
Back channel with ESPN to do it.

Let ND go to the B1G if they don’t want in the ACC but it would finally end this chit.

I couldn't agree more.

The holier than thou institution used the Big East to its own benefit and the same with the ACC. It's astonishing to me that the ACC leadership didn't apply what it learned from the ND behavior and precedent. The ACC brass bailing ND out last year letting them play a full ACC schedule and getting to the playoff was just further myopia on their behalf. And, ND wasted no time in displaying its true colors regarding their intentions, with Swarbrick leading the charge with the playoff expansion. Who knows how that plays out last year if it weren't for that leak about UT and OU going to the SEC?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If their is no cap on conference teams the SEC will get more bids than B1G on a season by season basis.

The SEC annually gets more top 10 teams.

Wisconsin/Michigan/Penn State annually aren’t at the same level as the secondary SEC teams behind Alabama.

Why would they get more? The playoff era disagrees. The B1G had more Top teams. Oklahoma is joining but you can't have Bama, LSU, UGA and OU all with 2 Ls or less. Someone has to lose.

With a 12 team - 6 conf champ playoff
2021- both would have had 3
2019- both 3
2018- SEC 4, B1G 3
2017- both 3
2016- B1G 4, SEC 1
2015- B1G 3, SEC 1
2014- SEC 3, B1G 2

Total
SEC- 18
B1G- 21