The Doug Marrone "Changes" article from the PS is a must read

[OttoinGrotto]

You're not really suggesting that he's pulling back access because he's afraid of negative responses from internet forum members, are you?

I think 2/3's is a fair ratio, because we are about 1/3 of the way to where we want to be. And just because it's bitching, doesn't mean it is wrong. And I don't see any of the bitching as just unfair complaining. There are actual issues and points raised... most of wish you ignore or call "BS".

Well said.

 

[Fjoinkay]

The blitz was less effective last year, and I agree with the earlier post that it was mostly due to the lack of development with young LBs and the DL. Was that coaching or more to do with youth? I have no idea. Definitely both are involved. The 2010 defense was better than the 2009 defense in part because of the experience those players took with them from 2009, and those players were good. I feel like we have talented young players now, so I'm excited to see the development.

 

[SoBristol]

Several of your solutions involve more contributions from the running backs. It's an awfully big if, but IF PTG, Smith, and AAM can stay healthy and two out of three are consistent, I see no reason why there isn't room for a playmaking slot back AND alternating RBs.

There is room and there are some possible options -- the first question would be whether that is our new offensive philosophy. It would mean getting away from using a FB so much with a pro set and not depending on the TE as the first option. It would mean that Nassib doesn't get all the snaps, because -- like Cincy & UConn -- you want to run the QB as part of the offense and you have a second QB. It would mean you have someone better than Graham & Kobena as your slot back.

Last year, Marrone was hamstrung once Gulley went down. He really did not have a run-first QB or a second useful RB or a wingback who could catch and get yards after the catch. He might have used Bailey in that wingback role and pushed Smith into the mix earlier, but maybe Smith wasn't ready before the Pitt game.

It looks like he has more options now (Broyld to run from the QB position; Gulley, and maybe one of the frosh to be that wingback). The question remains: will it be a priority to develop and use these weapons instead of the FB/TE schemes we saw in 2011? How much did we learn from watching bowl games?

 

[44cuse]

What was my point? My point was that their goal and expectation was to get to another bowl. It wasn't a pie in the sky stretch goal.

You read it wrong. We were not talking about a Bowl Game being the stretch goal. The stretch goal was in response to this statement:

I appreciate the info, 44cuse. I was basing my opinion on DM's stated preseason goal, to compete for the BE's title.

"First off, I want everyone to know, and the players will tell you this, we talked to the players and we have signed onto our goals, and our goal as a football team, make no mistake about it, is to be able to compete for a BIG EAST Championship."

There is no way this team was winning the BE this past year.

44cuse

 

[Fjoinkay]

Marrone seems to say that they had some guys open in the play-action or condensed formations but they were unable to get them the ball. His adjustment is to adapt the scheme to spread it out in some situations and to have the QB run the ball more often. Sounds good to me, and it's sort of what I imagined all along.

The question I have is what percentage of the open guys were missed because of pressure on our QB and what percentage of those open guys were simply missed either because the QB was locked in on a covered receiver or because the QB threw an inaccurate pass. I definitely think the QB needs better protection and more time to make throws on average. But I see a lot of college QBs hitting receivers who are tightly covered, and I see those throws being made with touch and without being fired like out of a missle launcher. My guess is the bullet passes happen when the QB feels pressure or when he lacks confidence on the throw because it requires more accuracy.

I recall a Rutgers defender telling a journalist before the SU game that SU asks it's QB to do a lot. I figured this is something the Rutgers coaches had emphasized in preparation for the game. I think it was true, and I'm glad Marrone is leaning towards simplifying the approach. It's college and they don't have enough time to get the reps they need if they have too much. By all reports WVU has a miniscule playbook. The challenge is to know what the offense does best.

 

[IthacaMatt]

So, DM identified this as the problem: “You can say what you want, but at the end of the day we’re just not creating enough big plays on offense,” he said. “And conversely on defense we’re giving up too many big plays. And that’s really as simple as it is.”

I don't think anyone can disagree with that conclusion. The REAL issue is identifying what was the cause of that.

And DM's answer for that is two-fold. One, he has to concentrate fully on coaching, "I have to become more involved." Clearly, he believes, right or wrong, that last year's lack of success was a largely a coaching issue.

Secondly, the schemes will be "tweaked," not changed: "A streamlined passing game, the quarterback as a passer and a runner, tweaking disguises and coverages on defense and a spread punt formation on special teams. There are other changes Marrone is contemplating, but those are the headliners."

I think that this means that the Coordinators will have less say in the overall approach next year, and schemes will reflect more of what DM believes needs to done to be successful.

Next year will define DM, IMO.

Is anyone else troubled by this article ? I mean, it's year 4 now, and he's just getting around to special teams play ? In college, many games are won in that area, but I get the sense that the pros take it for granted a bit.

As for the offense, well, man, you've been taking the reins since the first year with Bubble Screen Boy, and it hasn't opened up much. Our line was supposed to be a strength last year but with Mackey at center, we couldn't run and got rushed up the gut a lot.

This is a huge year for Doug. Giving away that Rutgers game cost us a second straight bowl appearance. Maybe the season ending slide wouldn't have been so bad if we were already clinched to be in a bowl. We MUST be better than .500 and we've got to be at least middle of the pack in the Big East (we will be here one more year...). If Doug lays a turd at the end of the season AGAIN, we maybe have to start thinking about another coach.

 

[Fjoinkay]

I think HCDM has done a very good job with the program while making some frustrating mistakes along the way. It's his first job as HC, and he's growing into the position. If what was posted earlier about feedback from players and asking coach to chill out is true...the most important insight for me is that the players like him. Yep, they like him and they want to play for him enough that they are willing to give candid feedback. If they didn't like him and they disliked his grinding methods we'd see mass defections.

Nick Saban wasn't the Nick Saban we know now his first few years at Michigan State. I'm not saying HCDM will go on to that kind of success because I think that would require him going to a place like Alabama. But I do believe he has the potential to become a top-notch college coach with a program at SU that is very competitive in the ACC and nationally.

 

[Orangetradition44]

Perhaps you are right. We should open one post and let everyone record their view on the state of the program. Then we'll visit the board every 12 months and edit as needed.

You do realize that your fighting a broken record of negativity with an endless loop of "we're headed in the right direction".

Where did I say afraid.

More like it's just a waste of time.

This tread is typical because it's the same people saying the same things they always do, relentlessly. Whether they are armchair coaches or amateur psychologists they take an innocuous article and use it as a jumping off point for their standard complaints.

 

[rrlbees]

You read it wrong. We were not talking about a Bowl Game being the stretch goal. The stretch goal was in response to this statement:

I appreciate the info, 44cuse. I was basing my opinion on DM's stated preseason goal, to compete for the BE's title.

"First off, I want everyone to know, and the players will tell you this, we talked to the players and we have signed onto our goals, and our goal as a football team, make no mistake about it, is to be able to compete for a BIG EAST Championship."

There is no way this team was winning the BE this past year.

44cuse

Well, you have me confused. I read it right and didn't say a bowl was a stretch goal. A couple of you were talking about BE championship and whether that was a goal, a stretch goal, etc. I simply said a bowl game was the goal. Nothing more nothing less. I was basically agreeing that the BE wasn't a real goal (altho any coach would "say" it). You asked me what my point was, so I reiterated what I said "that a bowl was the goal and expectation". So I'm not sure what your post here means.

 

[Chip]

Is anyone else troubled by this article ? I mean, it's year 4 now, and he's just getting around to special teams play ? In college, many games are won in that area, but I get the sense that the pros take it for granted a bit.

As for the offense, well, man, you've been taking the reins since the first year with Bubble Screen Boy, and it hasn't opened up much. Our line was supposed to be a strength last year but with Mackey at center, we couldn't run and got rushed up the gut a lot.

This is a huge year for Doug. Giving away that Rutgers game cost us a second straight bowl appearance. Maybe the season ending slide wouldn't have been so bad if we were already clinched to be in a bowl. We MUST be better than .500 and we've got to be at least middle of the pack in the Big East (we will be here one more year...). If Doug lays a turd at the end of the season AGAIN, we maybe have to start thinking about another coach.

I found the article to be troubling, yes. I really have stayed out of this thread because of it. I'm encouraged that we are soul searching from within the program to figure out how to get better. But I didn't expect as much on the job training, which was probably naive of me. The Doug Marrone that was given the SU job almost seems like an entirely different person from the Doug Marrone that's coaching it now.

But here's to it all working. Defense seems to me to be the most encouraging aspect going forward.

 

[rosconey]

im telling you guys-

he is throwing all his eggs into defense-

he see's he has nothing to work with on offense (his own fault) so he is hoping to recreate his 2010 defense in hopes for a win or 2

why else ignore the second biggest issue behind special teams?

 

[44cuse]

This is the problem with topic vs threaded view. If you go back and read the exchanges between "007" and myself (only), I think it will be more clear. Here's the general course of events:

1. OO7 said (paraphrasing obviously) it seemed "DM was stunned that his team was not more competitive last year" referencing "competing for the BE Title".
2. I responded with: Coaches being concerned about expectations after the Pinstripe Bowl and general concerns about the talent level. Without getting into too much detail...came from someone close enough to the program.
3. 007, politely, supported his/her position with the quote of the statement from DM "make no mistake about it, is to be able to compete for a BIG EAST Championship."
4. I responded by saying that the public goals were not anything less than a BE Title, but that was the stretch goal. (both IMO and in what I had heard from my contact)

That's the context. I am 100% certain that the realistic goal for this team as set by the Staff was to make a Bowl. No doubt about that, but that wasn't what my comment about stretch goals was about.

It's not meaningful anyway...no one in their right mind should have envisioned this team competing for a BET so it's pretty meaningless anyway. I just didn't understand why you were jumping on my back about the Bowl Game goal.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

It seems that I hear that about a lot of HCs whose won-loss records are suffering or it's just the opposite. He's either too tough or too lax.

Tom Coughlin was too tough. Greg Robinson was too lax.

My feeling last year was that the team was not tough enough - not physical enough - not emotional enough.

I figured that Marrone had taken his foot off the pedal from 2009.

Who really knows.

What did you think of the Pitt game? I may be wrong, but I thought I recalled you saying that the Pitt game was an example of how tough this team was because they fought to the end. Seriously, it may not have been you and if so...that's fine. But I thought it was.

For the record, just so you know I am being upfront, I believe Marrone lost this team and the team quit at the beginning of the slide.

I know it's a unpopular position, but it's what I saw.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

The Doug Marrone that was given the SU job almost seems like an entirely different person from the Doug Marrone that's coaching it now..

Ding. Ding.

44cuse

 

[rrlbees]

This is the problem with topic vs threaded view. If you go back and read the exchanges between "007" and myself (only), I think it will be more clear. Here's the general course of events:

1. OO7 said (paraphrasing obviously) it seemed "DM was stunned that his team was not more competitive last year" referencing "competing for the BE Title".
2. I responded with: Coaches being concerned about expectations after the Pinstripe Bowl and general concerns about the talent level. Without getting into too much detail...came from someone close enough to the program.
3. 007, politely, supported his/her position with the quote of the statement from DM "make no mistake about it, is to be able to compete for a BIG EAST Championship."
4. I responded by saying that the public goals were not anything less than a BE Title, but that was the stretch goal. (both IMO and in what I had heard from my contact)

That's the context. I am 100% certain that the realistic goal for this team as set by the Staff was to make a Bowl. No doubt about that, but that wasn't what my comment about stretch goals was about.

It's not meaningful anyway...no one in their right mind should have envisioned this team competing for a BET so it's pretty meaningless anyway. I just didn't understand why you were jumping on my back about the Bowl Game goal.

44cuse

Relax. I didn't jump on your back. I was agreeing with you! That is why I chimed in about the BE championship and said the bowl was the goal. It seems like you agree, so that's that.

 

[Millhouse]

I found the article to be troubling, yes. I really have stayed out of this thread because of it. I'm encouraged that we are soul searching from within the program to figure out how to get better. But I didn't expect as much on the job training, which was probably naive of me. The Doug Marrone that was given the SU job almost seems like an entirely different person from the Doug Marrone that's coaching it now.

But here's to it all working. Defense seems to me to be the most encouraging aspect going forward.

i wonder if there was a similar article before last season. my guess is that after 2010, marrone thought the secret to getting more big plays out of nassib was to put a lot on his plate hoping that defenses would get confused by our offensive complexity and leave people wide open.

if this were the nfl we'd have to suffer through 10 seasons of offensive experimentation none of which involve a new starter. at least next year, that change will come by neccessity.

 

[tipphill]

Ding. Ding.

44cuse

absolutely right

 

[Scooch]

I found the article to be troubling, yes. I really have stayed out of this thread because of it. I'm encouraged that we are soul searching from within the program to figure out how to get better. But I didn't expect as much on the job training, which was probably naive of me. The Doug Marrone that was given the SU job almost seems like an entirely different person from the Doug Marrone that's coaching it now.

But here's to it all working. Defense seems to me to be the most encouraging aspect going forward.

The day that Marrone was hired I was floored, absolutely floored, that we'd given the job to a guy with no HC experience. Again.

But then I saw his press conference and bought in. I loved the ideas about playing uptempo on offense, etc. Like you said, the guy who laid out that plan in that first offseason, at least offensively, is long gone.

To be totally honest, I'm concerned that Marrone is burning out. It's troubling.

 

[qdawgg]

im telling you guys-

No . In every post, every thread, every hour, and all the time. You don't need to remind us that you've been telling us.

 

[44cuse]

Relax. I didn't jump on your back. I was agreeing with you! That is why I chimed in about the BE championship and said the bowl was the goal. It seems like you agree, so that's that.

I don't need to relax. I think you know me well enough by now that to know if I was pi$$ed I would have been far less productive/nice in that note.

I thought you were jumping on my (as opposed to supporting) post by implying that I was saying the Bowl Game was the stretch goal.

But like I said...it's meaningless now. We have a HC who is re-trenching away from the fans when a cornerstone of his capital was fan engagement. He may very well be correct in that wins are the only things that matter, but I don't personally buy that.

The team underachieved. Go out and spend MORE time in the community building up more capital and have the difficult conversations when you are out there.

44cuse

 

[OttoinGrotto]

To be totally honest, I'm concerned that Marrone is burning out. It's troubling.

I'm pretty hard on Marrone, but truthfully I am really concerned for the guy's well being and I have the same concern you do.

 

[GoSU96]

im telling you guys-

he is throwing all his eggs into defense-

he see's he has nothing to work with on offense (his own fault) so he is hoping to recreate his 2010 defense in hopes for a win or 2

why else ignore the second biggest issue behind special teams?

Where do you get that it's being ignored? Do you think that the article was exhaustive of everything being looked at?

 

[kingottoiii]

The day that Marrone was hired I was floored, absolutely floored, that we'd given the job to a guy with no HC experience. Again.

But then I saw his press conference and bought in. I loved the ideas about playing uptempo on offense, etc. Like you said, the guy who laid out that plan in that first offseason, at least offensively, is long gone.

To be totally honest, I'm concerned that Marrone is burning out. It's troubling.

That is what is troubling. At the time of the hire we were told there was a plan. But since then so much has shifted around it seems like we are still searching for a plan. We were also sold that we would have a disciplined, hard working, fundamentally strong team and that has been far from true. Marrone seems like a smart guy and I think he still can turn this around, but I just wish he didn't have to go through the large learning curve he has.

 

[Scooch]

That is what is troubling. At the time of the hire we were told there was a plan. But since then so much has shifted around it seems like we are still searching for a plan. We were also sold that we would have a disciplined, hard working, fundamentally strong team and that has been far from true. Marrone seems like a smart guy and I think he still can turn this around, but I just wish he didn't have to go through the large learning curve he has.

As Mike Tyson once said "Everyone has a plan, until they get hit."

I think that's what's happened to Marrone. I believe 100% that he did, and does, have a "plan". But he also inherited a real live program, and morphing that reality into his ideal is proving to be difficult.

I don't get nearly as worked up about the "how" as some of you guys. Recruiting, assistants, etc... whatever. I always say, it's his ship he should sail it the way he wants.

But I am concerned that the guy looks like he's in a hostage video much of the time. It's football, this should be fun. I don't get the sense that it is for him, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[kcsu]

No . In every post, every thread, every hour, and all the time. You don't need to remind us that you've been telling us.

I agree your starting to sound like KCSU