The Last Dance

[Cusefan0307]

I'm not sure how Reinsdorf gets a pass in all of this. As the owner he should have stepped in.

 

[MikeSU02]

Kraus is an idiot. The East was terrible in 99. The Knicks made the Finals as an 8 seed and lost to the Spurs in 5. If they kept that team together I would have to think that series would have a least been a tossup with an aging Jordan/Pippen.

It's a great point. MJ would have put the fear of God into the team to stay in shape. That shortened season they would have had a huge advantage, imo, just from being familiar with each other and being ready to roll.

 

[MikeSU02]

"Former Chicago resident" was pretty hilarious. They also went with "former governor of Arkansas" for Clinton when talking about Pippen in college.

I 100% didn't remember Pippen demanding a trade. (I was 13, sue me)



I agree, and I am sure Krause is hurt here because he's not around to be interviewed. So you're only going to see it from the side of the guys who hated him.


One question I had when watching this was: Why didn't they just fire Krause?? I understand, despite what Jordan and Pippen may have thought, the guy did make some really good moves and was a part of them winning the titles, but the two best players on the team and the coach of the team all seemed to not like the guy, and the Krause was openly trying to run Jackson out of town. Why was Krause so untouchable here?

Another thing: Pretty incredible they had all this behind the scenes footage just sitting in a vault for nearly 20 years.

Reinsdorf doesn't fire people, at least not until things are past the breaking point.

He did it with the White Sox and he did it with GarPax.

He clearly is letting Krause take all the bullets on this.

 

[Briancuse]

It's unreal that Scottie is universally considered a Top 25-30 player ever, and he was the 122nd highest paid player in the league.

Pretty crazy but several people told him not to sign that contract.

 

[Eric15]

One question I had when watching this was: Why didn't they just fire Krause??

Good question -- I have no idea.

You have to figure the Bulls still could have been a formidable playoff team for a few more seasons after 1998. They probably were about to be eclipsed by Indiana in the East and would have probably had a lot of trouble with the early 2000s Lakers. But it's still better than having Randy Brown as your best player or whoever it was in 1999.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Good question -- I have no idea.

You have to figure the Bulls still could have been a formidable playoff team for a few more seasons after 1998. They probably were about to be eclipsed by Indiana in the East and would have probably had a lot of trouble with the early 2000s Lakers. But it's still better than having Randy Brown as your best player or whoever it was in 1999.

The Pacers lost to the Knicks the next year in the ECF 4-2! The 4th time in the decade they lost in that round.

 

[Eric15]

The Pacers lost to the Knicks the next year in the ECF 4-2! The 4th time in the decade they lost in that round.

Yeah that was a strange upset, but that 1998 Pacers team was excellent and had a 10 point 4th quarter lead in Chicago in Game 7. And then the 2000 team went 6 games with the Lakers.

Honestly I have no idea how that 1999 Knick team pulled that off.

 

[Knicks411]

I'm not sure how Reinsdorf gets a pass in all of this. As the owner he should have stepped in.

I was going to say that. It makes me think Reinsdorf endorsed most, if not all, of what Krause was doing. But was trying to babyface himself, to steal a wrestling term, to the team.

Without knowing the cap details of the time, he (Reinsdorf) should also take some more heat for not renegotiating the deal with Pippen. He seemed to basically be saying once a deal was signed he wouldn't do anything until it was over, but maybe make an exception? Again, without knowing the details, maybe it wasn't possible.

 

[Knicks411]

The Pacers lost to the Knicks the next year in the ECF 4-2! The 4th time in the decade they lost in that round.

Not just 4th time in the decade, 4th time in 6 years! 94, 95, 98, and 99. Then they made the NBA finals in 2000.

I was looking at their BBref page on Saturday because MSG was showing some Knicks 99 playoff games. Here is their W-L from 90-93
90: 42-40
91: 41-41
92: 40-42
93: 41-41

Not only a 4 year stretch where they finished exactly, 500, which I'm sure has been done, but 4 years in a row where they finished between 40 and 42 wins! Insane mediocrity.

Also interesting, they then got legitimately good, lost the east finals the next 2 years, first round in 96, before randomly missing the playoffs in 97. Right in the middle of a run where they won an average of 53 games and made the ECF 5 times in 7 years, they won 39 games and missed the playoffs.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Not just 4th time in the decade, 4th time in 6 years! 94, 95, 98, and 99. Then they made the NBA finals in 2000.

I was looking at their BBref page on Saturday because MSG was showing some Knicks 99 playoff games. Here is their W-L from 90-93
90: 42-40
91: 41-41
92: 40-42
93: 41-41

Not only a 4 year stretch where they finished exactly, 500, which I'm sure has been done, but 4 years in a row where they finished between 40 and 42 wins! Insane mediocrity.

Also interesting, they then got legitimately good, lost the east finals the next 2 years, first round in 96, before randomly missing the playoffs in 97. Right in the middle of a run where they won an average of 53 games and made the ECF 5 times in 7 years, they won 39 games and missed the playoffs.

If I recall correctly there was a lot of talk of that team being burnt out by Larry Brown in 97 and that's why they made the coaching change to Bird.

 

[Newhouser]

Krause was a baseball scout and became the GM of an NBA team? That's insane. Team was filled with guys who had some issues. Jackson, Pippen, Rodman, Krause (Horace Grant in threepeat version 1), Kerr, and of course MJ who clearly had a loving family but also had some unresolved family issues.

Scottie was the key - once he grew up, and became the 2nd best player in the league, MJ knew they could fill in the rest, athletically, basketball wise, and psychologically. Phil was the right place in the right time in my opinion, which seems to be the biggest skillset he has.

 

[OrangeDW]

I thought it was BS how Krause told the reporter "player and coaches don't win championships alone, organizations do too." And the reporter took out the word alone to make it look like he said it was only organizations. It seems like that single misquote did a huge amount of damage.

Agreed. And the thing is, given what he actually said...he was right.

 

[Knicks411]

Krause was a baseball scout and became the GM of an NBA team? That's insane. Team was filled with guys who had some issues. Jackson, Pippen, Rodman, Krause (Horace Grant in threepeat version 1), Kerr, and of course MJ who clearly had a loving family but also had some unresolved family issues.

Scottie was the key - once he grew up, and became the 2nd best player in the league, MJ knew they could fill in the rest, athletically, basketball wise, and psychologically. Phil was the right place in the right time in my opinion, which seems to be the biggest skillset he has.

I think Phil's best asset, which was mentioned last night, was he could do a great job of handling and massaging egos. He kept quiet when Pippen had the surgery. He kept Rodman from going completely insane. He kept Jordan from killing the other 11 guys, and got him to pass the ball on occasion. He potentially staved off the Kobe/Shaq relationship from blowing up for a few years. And hell, he kept the team afloat in 94 when Jordan left. Let's just not talk about his GM skills, ok?

If I recall correctly there was a lot of talk of that team being burnt out by Larry Brown in 97 and that's why they made the coaching change to Bird.

Sounds totally believable. I was thinking about Bird when I was watching the aforementioned Knicks 99 playoff games, I remember back at the time, because of how old I was and when I first started following sports (like 92ish, right when Bird was retiring) Bird seemed like a million years old to me at the time and so far removed from being a player. The reality is, in the 99 playoffs, the guy was 42 years old! He had been out of the league for 6 years.

 

[OrangeDW]

Could you imagine Stephen A. going off on Scottie if he played today and pulled that move waiting to get surgery.

Shaq did the same thing with his toe surgery, and even publicly said “I got hurt on company time, so I’m going to heal on company time.”

 

[jordville]

I don't disagree but keep in mind that was a strike shortened season. That knicks team was really good. Had it been a full season they would have been been alot better than an 8 seed.

With it being a shortened strike season that would have favored a champion/vet team in my opinion and the Bulls would've got #7. No offense to the Spurs.

 

[jordville]

With Rodman coming up in episode 3, here is a sneak peak of the Vegas vacation Dennis wanted with MJ and Phil's permission...
Or this one Billy is sharing was later that year (during the PLAYOFFS).

 

[Knicks411]

They may end up getting to this, but it's possible at that point Pippen was just done with the Bulls. He wanted to cash in somewhere else.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Totally forgot Pippen spent a year in Houston with washed up versions of Barkley and Olajuwon before he ended up in Portland.

 

[Knicks411]

One other thing (I am fascinated by this doc, plus there's nothing else going on)

Krause said prior to 98, they had received offers for Pippen. Assuming he's telling the truth (LOL), there must have been reporting on what they were. So. What were they???

 

[OrangeDW]

Totally forgot Pippen spent a year in Houston with washed up versions of Barkley and Olajuwon before he ended up in Portland.

Pippen and Barkley had a public feud where they were trading insults at the end of that too.

 

[Alsacs]

Great documentary.
The Scottie Pippen stuff was the stuff not many people talked about.
Pippen’s contract in 1991 wasn’t an issue. It was the length of the contract.
Stars in 1991 weren’t making insane money.
The top players were making 3.5 million per year.
Pippen signing a 7 year contract it what hurt him. He was underpaid because he didn’t get to cash in 1995 or 1996.

If he signed a 5 year 13 million dollar contract instead of a 7 year 18 million contract he would have cashed in and the Bulls would have been fine.

Krause was a textbook Napoleon complex individual. Red Auerbach and Jerry West never needed credit for the Celtics and Lakers winning in the 1980s nor did the Pistons GM.

Jordan didn’t berate Krause enough. Krause was bitter that he developed Phil Jackson as a coach hired him as an assistant and as Doug Collins replacement. The fact Krause didn’t feel Jackson was more loyal is just dumb
Jordan didn’t want to retire in 1998. The fact Krause wanted a rebuild is just so arrogant.

Pippen got paid after the lockout by the Houston Rockets. That 1999 season people forget the Rockets had Hakeem, Barkley and Pippen. Pippen couldn’t stand how lazy Barkley was and those 2 couldn’t get along and it blew up their season because Chuck was out of shape after the lockout.

Houston traded to Pippen to Portland for a pupu platter and contracts. I remember the closeout game Pippen had for Portland over Utah in the 2000 playoffs it was vintage Scottie Pippen.

Researching those Bulls teams Jerry Krause did some really good things but was such a thin skinned jerk it gets washed away.

He traded Orlando Woolridge for the pick that became Stacey King.
He used King to trade for Luc Longley.

The Oakley for Cartwright trade was good for the Bulls.

The Kukoc pick in the second round was great.

He turned Will Perdue into Dennis Rodman.

He drafted Pippen and Horace Grant in the same draft.

The Ron Harper signing after Jordan retired helped their second 3 peat.

I really wish this documentary dug into Jordan’s retirement in 1993 more.
I get his father’s death hit him hard and I believe they were close. I just don’t get the Jordan going to play baseball in HIS PRIME at all. I wish that detailed more. Was he suspended? What really happened. That never made sense and still doesn’t.

 

[OrangeDW]

One other thing (I am fascinated by this doc, plus there's nothing else going on)

Krause said prior to 98, they had received offers for Pippen. Assuming he's telling the truth (LOL), there must have been reporting on what they were. So. What were they???

There was definitely a Shawn Kemp(who was disgruntled in Seattle over his contract too) for Pippen rumor.

Someone posted there was a Tracy McGrady for Pippen rumor.

 

[Alsacs]

One other thing (I am fascinated by this doc, plus there's nothing else going on)

Krause said prior to 98, they had received offers for Pippen. Assuming he's telling the truth (LOL), there must have been reporting on what they were. So. What were they???

I read Jerry West offered Eddie Jones and Eldin Campbell for Pippen during that time I will try to find it.

 

[Alsacs]

There was definitely a Shawn Kemp(who was disgruntled in Seattle over his contract too) for Pippen rumor.

Someone posted there was a Tracy McGrady for Pippen rumor.

That rumored trade was in 1994. Draft night 1994 was when it would have taken place and it was after Jordan retired and the Bulls would have gone rebuild mode.

SONICS OWNER KILLS DEAL

Scottie Pippen is still a Bull. For now, anyway. On an NBA draft night as stunning as the events leading up to Wednesday-with reports that the Bulls were looking to trade their superstar-a proposed…

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[Cusefan0307]

Pippen and Barkley had a public feud where they were trading insults at the end of that too.

If I remember right, after that feud Pippen really wanted to go to LA to play for Phil again with Shaq and Kobe, but the Lakers chose to keep Glen Rice instead.