The Last Dance

[jordville]

 

[Eric15]

1st Team: Tim Hardaway, MJ, Grant Hill, Malone, and Hakeem
2nd Team: Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Scottie Pippen, Glen Rice, Ewing
3rd Team: Anfernee Hardaway, Stockton, Vin Baker, Anthony Mason, Shaq

Who is higher on the all-time great list if they never get injured... Hill or Penny?

 

[Knicks411]

Who is higher on the all-time great list if they never get injured... Hill or Penny?

That is a hell of a question. My gut says Grant. He was second team all league by his second year, first by his third. Averaging like 20-9-7!

It is so crazy how he went from being injured all the time to missing 3 games total, in his age 36, 37, and 38 season

 

[Newhouser]

Who is higher on the all-time great list if they never get injured... Hill or Penny?

Grant.

 

[MikeSU02]

Who is higher on the all-time great list if they never get injured... Hill or Penny?

I'll be the contrarian - I'll say Penny. He had 2x first team all NBAs. Hill only had 1x. Granted Hill had more total All NBAs though.

Penny was more of a unicorn than Grant was. 6'7" and could do it all and we had just come off a decade of Magic, seeing what a big PG could do.

I'm not sure if I believe my own argument, but you give me a 6'7" PG in Penny, there is a lot to work with there.

And I'll just say it, I think G Hill's potential is overrated.

Both these guys played during the time, imo, that the NBA was pretty weak. It was post-Bird/Magic and pre-the influx of talent we have now.

 

[Eric15]

the NBA was pretty weak. It was post-Bird/Magic and pre-the influx of talent we have now.

Lebron never could made it in the 90s. Players were too tough back then. And MJ would have scored 110 points per game today.

 

[Knicks411]

I'll be the contrarian - I'll say Penny. He had 2x first team all NBAs. Hill only had 1x. Granted Hill had more total All NBAs though.

Penny was more of a unicorn than Grant was. 6'7" and could do it all and we had just come off a decade of Magic, seeing what a big PG could do.

I'm not sure if I believe my own argument, but you give me a 6'7" PG in Penny, there is a lot to work with there.

And I'll just say it, I think G Hill's potential is overrated.

Both these guys played during the time, imo, that the NBA was pretty weak. It was post-Bird/Magic and pre-the influx of talent we have now.

I can see it either way.


Let me defend Hill on that point a little on the all NBA issue. I think the league was stronger at F than G in that period; Hill made second team in 96, 98, 99, and 00, and first team in 97. in 96, the first team all league F were Scottie Pippen and Karl Malone. League may have been down, but those are 2 legit HOF guys. In 97, he actually beat out Scottie Pippen for first team. In 98-00, the first team F were Duncan/Malone, Duncan/Malone, Duncan/Garnett. That's a hell of a F tandem.

Penny made first team in 95 and 96. In 95, the second team, the guys he effectively beat out, were Gary Payton and Mitch Richmond. Payton was great, not at the level of the F mentioned above, but great. Richmond? Meh
96, it was Payton and Stockton, a pretty strong pairing. In 97, he was third team, beaten out by Tim Hardaway and Jordan for first team, and Richmond and Payton for second. It's a minor point, but I would say Hill had tougher competition at the F spot than Penny at G.

Anyway, even though one was nominally a F and the other a PG, they are really two pretty similar players. Both were essentially PG for their teams. Penny listed at 6-7, Hill 6-8. Neither guy really a threat from 3.

I think the pro Penny argument is probably that Hill was probably more fully formed as a player, he came into the league at an older age, he maybe wasn't as hyper athletic as Penny; basically, the (very high) level he was at was basically the level he would peak at? Whereas Penny maybe had some more room to develop as a player? Flipside to that is, Hill's last healthy season, he averaged 26-6-5 on 49% shooting. That is a pretty monster player. And i wonder what his career looks like if spends some time with early Shaq.

 

[Alsacs]

Lebron never could made it in the 90s. Players were too tough back then. And MJ would have scored 110 points per game today.

Unleash 1987 Michael Jordan on the current league he would average over 40 PPG for a season.

LeBron is great in any Era.

 

[Knicks411]

I wonder how many 3's MJ would shoot if he played today.

Harden averaged 36 points in about 37 MPG last year, Jordan was pushing 40 in his high years. I could see him getting close to 40 a game, especially now since possessions per game at levels near where they were in the mid to late 80s.

 

[MikeSU02]

I wonder how many 3's MJ would shoot if he played today.

Harden averaged 36 points in about 37 MPG last year, Jordan was pushing 40 in his high years. I could see him getting close to 40 a game, especially now since possessions per game at levels near where they were in the mid to late 80s.

I think he'd average around what Kawhi does - 5-6 threes a game. Maybe more just because he was a psycho competitor.

 

[Knicks411]

I think he'd average around what Kawhi does - 5-6 threes a game. Maybe more just because he was a psycho competitor.

I guess it could depend on what age Jordan we are talking. Like, if the 3 point explosion started in mid career for him, I could almost see him being so stubborn and fighting it.

Then again, Kobe seems like a good comp, and he was taking 4-5 per game, and really, the 3's have taken off even since he retired, so you are probably right

 

[Alsacs]

I think Jordan in today’s NBA would get 15 FTA per game.
He was getting double digit FTAs in the late 80’s when handchecking was allowed to slow him down.

In today’s league he does the LeBron driving with head of steam act even better and gets a lot of free points and he does it in a less annoying way than James Harden.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[Briancuse]

The honesty in this is great I love it.

 

[OrangeDW]

I've been watching some old NBA games during this quarantine and had the same thought about Mark Price. Feel like he would be an absolute superstar if he came around today.

No question. I mean...he pretty much was back then for a solid 5 years. But yeah, he’d be taking a lot more 3’s now. Great player.

 

[Briancuse]

Damn Carmen Electra looks good.

 

[OrangeDW]

I'll be the contrarian - I'll say Penny. He had 2x first team all NBAs. Hill only had 1x. Granted Hill had more total All NBAs though.

Penny was more of a unicorn than Grant was. 6'7" and could do it all and we had just come off a decade of Magic, seeing what a big PG could do.

I'm not sure if I believe my own argument, but you give me a 6'7" PG in Penny, there is a lot to work with there.

And I'll just say it, I think G Hill's potential is overrated.

Both these guys played during the time, imo, that the NBA was pretty weak. It was post-Bird/Magic and pre-the influx of talent we have now.

Agreed. Penny’s upside was even greater than Grant’s IMO.

 

[Knicks411]

Love love love Isiah looking like a dbag

 

[Knicks411]

Also, I can't say I've ever been a huge fan of Jordan the guy or anything, but he is coming off as super compelling in these interviews

 

[OrangeDW]

Also, I can't say I've ever been a huge fan of Jordan the guy or anything, but he is coming off as super compelling in these interviews

I busted out laughing when he called Isiah an ahole.

There have been books and articles written and stories told, but we haven’t seen much of Jordan in this fashion. He doesn’t typically do interviews or go in depth like this on camera, and even back when he played it was mostly just the stuff where he was “on” for the media. Not drinking a glass of whatever that is, cussing, and telling old stories.

 

[Knicks411]

I busted out laughing when he called Isiah an ahole.

There have been books and articles written and stories told, but we haven’t seen much of Jordan in this fashion. He doesn’t typically do interviews or go in depth like this on camera, and even back when he played it was mostly just the stuff where he was “on” for the media. Not drinking a glass of whatever that is, cussing, and telling old stories.

Yeah and even the stuff about how it bothered him that he wasn't considered in the class of Magic and Larry before 91.

I don't know obviously, maybe he's working everyone (to steal a wrestling term) but it comes off like he's teling the truth all the time here.

I died when the were about to show him the video of Isiah and he was like "I know whatever he said was BS" or whatever the exact line was.

 

[longislandcuse]

Horace Grant calling the bad boy Pistons “b**ches” and Carmen Electra looking fine talking about hiding from MJ as he knocked on the hotel room door were highlights, BUT...

Rodman breaking down rebound trajectory is something we need to play on a loop at the Melo Center.

 

[MSOrange]

Love love love Isiah looking like a dbag

Yeah didn't seem like MJ was still a huge of Isiah at all. I'm not suprised. That was bush league walking off the court like that among all their other dirty play antics.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Two words for parts 3/4

so good

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Horace Grant calling the bad boy Pistons “b**ches” and Carmen Electra looking fine talking about hiding from MJ as he knocked on the hotel room door were highlights, BUT...

Rodman breaking down rebound trajectory is something we need to play on a loop at the Melo Center.

How big was he? 6’7” or 6’8” in an era where rosters were full of giants ? Just another bit of evidence proving Size is just one component of rebounding... well behind instinct , studying your craft .. and just wanting it more ...