The Last Dance

[donniesyracuse]

They ripped off Ricky Steamboat

That is still the first place my mind goes when I hear "Sirius."

 

[Knicks411]

I ended up reading up on the 82 draft again during the show last night, I'm just gonna quote from Wiki. I'll eve leave in the "citation needed"

The 1982 NBA draft took place on June 29, 1982, at the Felt Forum at Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York. Brent Musburger reported for CBS in the days leading up to the draft that the Los Angeles Lakers and New York Knicks were working on a wider-ranging deal that would have sent Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to New York, Bill Cartwright to the Utah Jazz, and either the #1 or #2 pick from Utah to Los Angeles (which was guaranteed one of those picks anyway due to a 1980 trade with Cleveland), with the Lakers then planning to select both Ralph Sampson and James Worthy. When Sampson decided to forgo entering the draft and to return for another season at the University of Virginia, the deal fell apart and the Lakers picked Worthy with the #1 overall choice.[citation needed]

 

[Alsacs]

I ended up reading up on the 82 draft again during the show last night, I'm just gonna quote from Wiki. I'll eve leave in the "citation needed"

In 1984 Houston could have traded Ralph Sampson to Portland for Clyde Drexler and 2nd overall pick.

Houston could have had Hakeem, Drexler and Michael Jordan on 1 team.

How many championships does that team win from 1984 onward.

 

[Knicks411]

In 1984 Houston could have traded Ralph Sampson to Portland for Clyde Drexler and 2nd overall pick.

Houston could have had Hakeem, Drexler and Michael Jordan on 1 team.

How many championships does that team win from 1984 onward.

Another interesting one is how does the 84 draft play out if Ewing enters the draft that year? Ewing 1, Hakeem 2, Jordan 3? Hakeem still 1? Either way, Portland can essentially trade Sam Bowie for a HOF center

 

[Cusefan0307]

In 1984 Houston could have traded Ralph Sampson to Portland for Clyde Drexler and 2nd overall pick.

Houston could have had Hakeem, Drexler and Michael Jordan on 1 team.

How many championships does that team win from 1984 onward.

Are they better than the 80’s Lakers and Celtics? Probably all those titles then.

 

[jordville]

One other thing (I am fascinated by this doc, plus there's nothing else going on)

Krause said prior to 98, they had received offers for Pippen. Assuming he's telling the truth (LOL), there must have been reporting on what they were. So. What were they???

The two Pippen trade rumors I recall were...
1. For Kemp & Ricky Pierce
2. For McGrady (Krause wanted him on that 97-98 team, but MJ vetoed it)

 

[Knicks411]

The two Pippen trade rumors I recall were...
1. For Kemp & Ricky Pierce
2. For McGrady (Krause wanted him on that 97-98 team, but MJ vetoed it)

Tmac was an 18 year old rookie in 97. Imagine trading away Scottie Pippen off that Bulls team for an 18 year old.

 

[Briancuse]

With it being a shortened strike season that would have favored a champion/vet team in my opinion and the Bulls would've got #7. No offense to the Spurs.

I def think it would have had it been a 82 game season I think the Knicks win 50 games and prob lose to the bulls in the ecf.

 

[jordville]

Tmac was an 18 year old rookie in 97. Imagine trading away Scottie Pippen off that Bulls team for an 18 year old.

Krause wasn't thinking for that year. Remember he was the one that wanted to tear down/rebuild and get the credit. TMac would've been his building piece for the future Bulls. Glad MJ stepped in.

 

[Knicks411]

Krause wasn't thinking for that year. Remember he was the one that wanted to tear down/rebuild and get the credit. TMac would've been his building piece for the future Bulls. Glad MJ stepped in.

Yeah I get that. It's just like, what is the point of rebuilding? To put together a team that can win a title? Jerry, you already have that!!!!!

Presumably on some level he resented Scottie and MJ and wanted to build a winner without them.

 

[jordville]

Yeah I get that. It's just like, what is the point of rebuilding? To put together a team that can win a title? Jerry, you already have that!!!!!

Presumably on some level he resented Scottie and MJ and wanted to build a winner without them.

Yes, Krause resented Phil, MJ, and Scottie.

 

[MikeSU02]

'96-'97 All NBA teams (so the year before The Last Dance):

1st Team: Tim Hardaway, MJ, Grant Hill, Malone, and Hakeem
2nd Team: Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Scottie Pippen, Glen Rice, Ewing
3rd Team: Anfernee Hardaway, Stockton, Vin Baker, Anthony Mason, Shaq

So going into the '97-'98 season, I think it's reasonable to say that Pippen could have been considered a top five player and I *think* you can argue that he was the second best player (not saying I would). He also made 1st team all D.

 

[Cusefan0307]

'96-'97 All NBA teams (so the year before The Last Dance):

1st Team: Tim Hardaway, MJ, Grant Hill, Malone, and Hakeem
2nd Team: Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Scottie Pippen, Glen Rice, Ewing
3rd Team: Anfernee Hardaway, Stockton, Vin Baker, Anthony Mason, Shaq

So going into the '97-'98 season, I think it's reasonable to say that Pippen could have been considered a top five player and I *think* you can argue that he was the second best player (not saying I would). He also made 1st team all D.

He was 5th in win shares that season. Jordan was first. Malone was 2nd. Stockton 4th. Grant Hill was third.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Great documentary.
The Scottie Pippen stuff was the stuff not many people talked about.
Pippen’s contract in 1991 wasn’t an issue. It was the length of the contract.
Stars in 1991 weren’t making insane money.
The top players were making 3.5 million per year.
Pippen signing a 7 year contract it what hurt him. He was underpaid because he didn’t get to cash in 1995 or 1996.

If he signed a 5 year 13 million dollar contract instead of a 7 year 18 million contract he would have cashed in and the Bulls would have been fine.

Krause was a textbook Napoleon complex individual. Red Auerbach and Jerry West never needed credit for the Celtics and Lakers winning in the 1980s nor did the Pistons GM.

Jordan didn’t berate Krause enough. Krause was bitter that he developed Phil Jackson as a coach hired him as an assistant and as Doug Collins replacement. The fact Krause didn’t feel Jackson was more loyal is just dumb
Jordan didn’t want to retire in 1998. The fact Krause wanted a rebuild is just so arrogant.

Pippen got paid after the lockout by the Houston Rockets. That 1999 season people forget the Rockets had Hakeem, Barkley and Pippen. Pippen couldn’t stand how lazy Barkley was and those 2 couldn’t get along and it blew up their season because Chuck was out of shape after the lockout.

Houston traded to Pippen to Portland for a pupu platter and contracts. I remember the closeout game Pippen had for Portland over Utah in the 2000 playoffs it was vintage Scottie Pippen.

Researching those Bulls teams Jerry Krause did some really good things but was such a thin skinned jerk it gets washed away.

He traded Orlando Woolridge for the pick that became Stacey King.
He used King to trade for Luc Longley.

The Oakley for Cartwright trade was good for the Bulls.

The Kukoc pick in the second round was great.

He turned Will Perdue into Dennis Rodman.

He drafted Pippen and Horace Grant in the same draft.

The Ron Harper signing after Jordan retired helped their second 3 peat.

I really wish this documentary dug into Jordan’s retirement in 1993 more.
I get his father’s death hit him hard and I believe they were close. I just don’t get the Jordan going to play baseball in HIS PRIME at all. I wish that detailed more. Was he suspended? What really happened. That never made sense and still doesn’t.

My friend has a theory Jordan was suspended for gambling haha, we love bringing it up when talking nba

 

[Cusefan0307]

'96-'97 All NBA teams (so the year before The Last Dance):

1st Team: Tim Hardaway, MJ, Grant Hill, Malone, and Hakeem
2nd Team: Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Scottie Pippen, Glen Rice, Ewing
3rd Team: Anfernee Hardaway, Stockton, Vin Baker, Anthony Mason, Shaq

So going into the '97-'98 season, I think it's reasonable to say that Pippen could have been considered a top five player and I *think* you can argue that he was the second best player (not saying I would). He also made 1st team all D.

So if there was ever a player that played in the wrong era it was Stockton. Pretty much ever advanced stat of that era had him as a top 5 player and a better player than Hardaway/Payton. He was extremely efficient as a shooter. He did not shoot enough. From 94-98 he had a 60% EFG and a 4:1 AST:TO.

 

[MikeSU02]

So if there was ever a player that played in the wrong era it was Stockton. Pretty much ever advanced stat of that era had him as a top 5 player and a better player than Hardaway/Payton. He was extremely efficient as a shooter. He did not shoot enough. From 94-98 he had a 60% EFG and a 4:1 AST:TO.

Good call. What about if Nash came two decades later, too?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Good call. What about if Nash came two decades later, too?

That's another good one. I think he even admits he didn't shoot enough. Stockton could play some dirty defense though!

 

[MikeSU02]

That's another good one. I think he even admits he didn't shoot enough. Stockton could play some dirty defense though!

Ha, yes - Stockton making all defense teams while giving out charlie horses left and right.

 

[Knicks411]

'96-'97 All NBA teams (so the year before The Last Dance):

1st Team: Tim Hardaway, MJ, Grant Hill, Malone, and Hakeem
2nd Team: Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Scottie Pippen, Glen Rice, Ewing
3rd Team: Anfernee Hardaway, Stockton, Vin Baker, Anthony Mason, Shaq

So going into the '97-'98 season, I think it's reasonable to say that Pippen could have been considered a top five player and I *think* you can argue that he was the second best player (not saying I would). He also made 1st team all D.

To me Pippen as a top 5 player in 97-98 is a no brainer.

I love Tim Hardaway (thats a lie, I hated him but bear with me) but first team all league?

So if there was ever a player that played in the wrong era it was Stockton. Pretty much ever advanced stat of that era had him as a top 5 player and a better player than Hardaway/Payton. He was extremely efficient as a shooter. He did not shoot enough. From 94-98 he had a 60% EFG and a 4:1 AST:TO.

How about that backcourt? Stockton and Hornaceck. In 98, they shot 43% from 3. Combined, they took 3 per game! They would definitely not be the splash bros, but if they played today, they're taking 13-15 3's per game combined I would say.

 

[upperdeck]

its crazy that they had this film for almost 25 yrs just sitting around.. Makes you wonder if some other teams have stuff like this but the season didnt pan out to use it.

It also makes you appreciate how well Jordan uses the glass... told my kid 1000 times bank shots in,, but alwasy the same answer, no one used the glass.. ahh,.. but the great ones did.. Bird, Jordan, etc..

 

[samspann1]

 

[Melancer46]

Good call. What about if Nash came two decades later, too?

I've been watching some old NBA games during this quarantine and had the same thought about Mark Price. Feel like he would be an absolute superstar if he came around today.

 

[jordville]

Interesting read on how this all came to fruition...

Michael Jordan agreed to 'The Last Dance' documentary, thanks to LeBron James, Allen Iverson, Adam Silver

www.cbssports.com

Good job by a young Adam Silver. Brilliant.

 

[Knicks411]

I've been watching some old NBA games during this quarantine and had the same thought about Mark Price. Feel like he would be an absolute superstar if he came around today.

Price at least took a decent amount of threes, but I agree, the guy would be a killer now. In the 90 season, he took 5 per game and made 40%. In the whole 1990 season, only 5 guys took over 3.5 3's per game. 158 guys did it this year; thats about 5 guys per team!

 

[Melancer46]

Price at least took a decent amount of threes, but I agree, the guy would be a killer now. In the 90 season, he took 5 per game and made 40%. In the whole 1990 season, only 5 guys took over 3.5 3's per game. 158 guys did it this year; thats about 5 guys per team!

Yeah I have no doubt he’d be chucking 3’s like crazy today.