The latest all encompassing recruiting thread

sdhall01

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Which I would think would benefit Cuse and the ACC. Just like Dungey not getting an Oregon offer and coming to Syracuse to do big things in the ACC.
Did Dungey have a PAC-12 offer? I honestly can't remember. Regardless, some kids want to play close to friends and family, or alternatively, play where friends and family can easily watch. He'll get that at Vandy. Who knows whether that's the deciding factor, but it's certainly something that we can't offer.
 

SUforme

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It's a combination of a lot of things. One we haven't consistently won in a while, two I think the style of QB play is being used against us on the recruiting trail as it relates to NFL play, three oline was atrocious last year, four even though he signed an extension I think fellow coaches are telling recruits Babers is a journeyman and doesn't stay in one place for long.
Sounds like it's excuses but all seem logical and now Babers and staff have to figure out how to change these narratives against us.
 

kcsu

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Now that we have a solid QB coach and Tommy is a year older i would hope we can land one of our top targets.
 

Nick44

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It's a combination of a lot of things. One we haven't consistently won in a while, two I think the style of QB play is being used against us on the recruiting trail as it relates to NFL play, three oline was atrocious last year, four even though he signed an extension I think fellow coaches are telling recruits Babers is a journeyman and doesn't stay in one place for long.
Sounds like it's excuses but all seem logical and now Babers and staff have to figure out how to change these narratives against us.
Your first, third and fourth points should have little influence on a QB prospect’s decision.

We have not won consistently but Vanderbilt for example has won even less and if you read there board they currently have multiple options, including Leonard to fill their 2021 QB slot. Our offensive line was atrocious but Leonard is likely 2 years away from seeing the field, this should look much different. Lastly, Dino’s history of moving around is a consideration but let’s not kid ourselves that he has won enough in 4 seasons to position himself for a better opportunity.

Your second point is the biggest issue IMO. Dino has to get a QB to the league.
 

DeGrozz

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Well, this is considered a down stretch for SU and that’s par for course for Vandy. Not to mention the ACC’s been the superior conference during that stretch.
Cuse and the Knicks. Just a little bit of a down stretch.
 

Orijinal

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Let's think about this. If you are a recruit and you have never even considered Syracuse or the University in all your years growing up, and suddenly you find yourself getting extended an offer from Syracuse University:
#1. You at first recognize the name "Syracuse" because you haven't been living under a rock
#2. Because of #1, you may even think getting such an offer is a pretty big deal
#3. The first and only thing that comes to mind after the newness of the offer wears off is ...it's cold and snow

Dead Stop

Syracuse is much more than this, mind you, but you have a LOT of hurdles to overcome recruiting from Syracuse
 

Bulldog04

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I also think by Dino crowning TD the QB for years, it never seemed like there was a possibility of open competition and whether that’s the case or not, who would want to come here last year or year before when theres no chance of playing (barring injury) ... every school I see that has a bunch of qbs has no crowned starter... OL def hasn’t helped I’m sure but I look at it more that Dino has tabbed TD for 3-4 years and makes it very known he’s his boy
 

orange79

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I also think by Dino crowning TD the QB for years, it never seemed like there was a possibility of open competition and whether that’s the case or not, who would want to come here last year or year before when theres no chance of playing (barring injury) ... every school I see that has a bunch of qbs has no crowned starter... OL def hasn’t helped I’m sure but I look at it more that Dino has tabbed TD for 3-4 years and makes it very known he’s his boy
I have always disliked that argument, no offense to you. Coaches are very selfish. They want to win. If player B gives them a better chance to win than player A, player B will start.

Saying Tommy is his guy doesn't guarantee him starting for 3 years, IMO.
 

Whitey23

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I also think by Dino crowning TD the QB for years, it never seemed like there was a possibility of open competition and whether that’s the case or not, who would want to come here last year or year before when theres no chance of playing (barring injury) ... every school I see that has a bunch of qbs has no crowned starter... OL def hasn’t helped I’m sure but I look at it more that Dino has tabbed TD for 3-4 years and makes it very known he’s his boy
What was the alternative?
 

Bulldog04

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What was the alternative?
chance was until that fell off, but I’m making a point more of that it’s a given and marketed that Tommy is QB... you don’t see that very often from programs like ours where someone is tapped for years Especially Dino’s main recruit. I’m Def excited to see what TD can do with a real OL. Don’t Get me wrong
 

General Joe

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We won’t have another coach for a long time. Dino is here to stay
I really hope so because that would mean more 7 or 8 win seasons. And less 4 and 5 win seasons. I think we all can admit he needs to improve his recruiting to accomplish this. Lets hope he does!!! Same problem we had with our last MAC coach HCSS.

I am sure the same ole posters will say "the recruiting is fine", "I trust the staff with recruiting", "Dino is a great recruiter" etc etc. Just share what we need to do BETTER, to become a routine 7 win team under HCDB
 

Nahson

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I really hope so because that would mean more 7 or 8 win seasons. And less 4 and 5 win seasons. I think we all can admit he needs to improve his recruiting to accomplish this. Lets hope he does!!! Same problem we had with our last MAC coach HCSS.

I am sure the same ole posters will say "the recruiting is fine", "I trust the staff with recruiting", "Dino is a great recruiter" etc etc. Just share what we need to do BETTER, to become a routine 7 win team under HCDB
Andddddddd muted
 

General Joe

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Me too. This one should’ve been a layup. So sick of always settling for plan D, E and F. If this staff can’t recruit at an ACC level, they need to find a staff that can. I’ve heard all the excuses.
You ever notice that the people on here that say "our recruiting is good", never give you a reason why we went 2 and 7 vs the Power 5 teams. All they do is criticize Syracuse and say no players want to come to Syracuse that are 4 or 5 stars. Its too cold (we play in a Dome at 70 degrees) and a bunch of other lame excuses. Its fascinating that they will criticize you but NEVER ever give you a reason for a few 4 and 5 win seasons with one GREAT winning season among them. Hold your head high friend. The majority of fellow Syracuse fans on this site feel the same as you. They just dont post because of thosee those 100 regulars bash them. They do it to me also but Whitman taught me to actually look at facts and come to a logical conclusion based on those facts.

The fact is that our recruiting has been among the worst in the entire P5 with HCDB here at Syracuse. This is by any objective metric. The excuses for our poor recruiting are just those excuses. But here is the kicker. The same people on this site that say "the recruiting is great" will praise a 2star guy with 1 P5 offer and talk about how good he is on tape, celebrate his MAC, AAC and D2 offers. And make excuses why we dont land the BETTER players in some cases on his same team who is a 4 or 5 star and say "stars dont matter" etc etc. Its makes me laugh everytime I see it. Bless them we all want Syracuse to win. Lets hope we get to 7 wins next year with essentially all HCDB players on the roster. No more excuses.
 

billsin01

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You ever notice that the people on here that say "our recruiting is good", never give you a reason why we went 2 and 7 vs the Power 5 teams. All they do is criticize Syracuse and say no players want to come to Syracuse that are 4 or 5 stars. Its too cold (we play in a Dome at 70 degrees) and a bunch of other lame excuses. Its fascinating that they will criticize you but NEVER ever give you a reason for a few 4 and 5 win seasons with one GREAT winning season among them. Hold your head high friend. The majority of fellow Syracuse fans on this site feel the same as you. They just dont post because of thosee those 100 regulars bash them. They do it to me also but Whitman taught me to actually look at facts and come to a logical conclusion based on those facts.

The fact is that our recruiting has been among the worst in the entire P5 with HCDB here at Syracuse. This is by any objective metric. The excuses for our poor recruiting are just those excuses. But here is the kicker. The same people on this site that say "the recruiting is great" will praise a 2star guy with 1 P5 offer and talk about how good he is on tape, celebrate his MAC, AAC and D2 offers. And make excuses why we dont land the BETTER players in some cases on his same team who is a 4 or 5 star and say "stars dont matter" etc etc. Its makes me laugh everytime I see it. Bless them we all want Syracuse to win. Lets hope we get to 7 wins next year with essentially all HCDB players on the roster. No more excuses.
This post is awesome. I won't pretend to speak for those who you are referring to entirely, but let's break down your post:

1) There is no 'objective metric' for recruiting. In fact, I'd argue there is no actual 'metric' for recruiting. Yes, teams are ranked on recruits but those results tend to mirror what we already know -- clemson and alabama will be on top, BC and Syracuse will be on the bottom. This may change if one of those two programs starts winning more but there is next to no predictive value in rankings in terms of seeing teams surprise. And in terms of objectivity, the rankings are based on subjective evaluation of high school prospects by 'experts' who have no more credentials for actually evaluating prospects than you and I. It's simply that it's their job to try and do so.

2) Our recruiting, regardless of ranking, has been among the worst in college football since a few years prior to P's departure. So unless your contention is that somehow P forgot how to recruit and then we hired four subsequent terribly incompetent staffs of recruiters, then I would suggest that there are a set of circumstances in place that, quite simply, make it difficult to recruit to syracuse. Facilities, game-day atmosphere, location, budget (recruiting and coaching staff salaries), etc. I don't care which ones folks want to point to, the only way it's not that is if you're feeling is that we simply haven't hired a single staff of solid recruiters in the past 25 years.

3) 4- and 5-star players. Forget for the moment that our most recent examples of 4- and 5-star players largely haven't performed to that level, what time are you pointing to when we landed handfuls of 4-star players? It hasn't happened in my lifetime as a fan unless perhaps you argue that it was the case during the Mac era (that was before stars came about but maybe we held more sway? Followed those teams but can't claim to know exactly how those recruits were viewed at that time). Even when we were regularly pumping out really good NFL players in the 90s, we weren't signing a boatload of 4-star, top 250 type kids. We were mining NJ and Florida, turning over rocks for players that were undervalued (Nebraska was the only other QB offer of significance for McNabb, Morlon Greenwood was late to football, Kevin Johnson was signed as a QB ...). The simple truth is that, while we were signing more highly sought after kids at that point, we weren't signing a boatload of 4-star kids every year.

4) When we were pulling in that talent during the majority of the P era, Rutgers was a joke, Temple was a joke, BC was dealing with the aftermath of their scandal, Pitt was mostly brutal in the Hackett/Majors Pt. 2 eras, UConn and Buffalo essentially didn't exist, Wisconsin was one of the only programs from outside the region that I remember that heavily recruited NJ on a regular basis, etc. PedSt did their thing but we basically were the only credible program in the northeast. That didn't hurt.

I don't know, I've tired of this by this point. But just so we're clear -- you offered no facts, and your general stance that 'recruiting needs to improve' is shared by most here. The 'excuses' for crappy recruiting are in fact real obstacles, by and large (are we still not aligned on the fact that the weather in upstate NY -- by any objective metric -- blows? Really?). The landscape of college football is tilted heavily in favor of the factories -- there are traditional powers that, for the most part, can't compete with the elite SEC teams -- Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Michigan, Nebraska, PedSt.

We all hope recruiting can improve and we can at least be a generally competitive program in most years, but expecting us to start pulling in a bunch of 4-stars, at the very least without establishing a credible, winning program, is patently absurd.
 

billsin01

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I have always disliked that argument, no offense to you. Coaches are very selfish. They want to win. If player B gives them a better chance to win than player A, player B will start.

Saying Tommy is his guy doesn't guarantee him starting for 3 years, IMO.
Agree with this. I'm more down on Tommy than almost anyone here, I admit that. But if I'm a parent or handler for a QB prospect, I actually look at this as a pretty good spot for a talented kid. Coach who runs a potentially wide open offense, starting QB who's shaky (at best, IMO), super murky situation behind that kid ... I'm honestly not sure there are that many places that offer a potentially quicker path to playing time ... imo.
 

General Joe

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This post is awesome. I won't pretend to speak for those who you are referring to entirely, but let's break down your post:

1) There is no 'objective metric' for recruiting. In fact, I'd argue there is no actual 'metric' for recruiting. Yes, teams are ranked on recruits but those results tend to mirror what we already know -- clemson and alabama will be on top, BC and Syracuse will be on the bottom. This may change if one of those two programs starts winning more but there is next to no predictive value in rankings in terms of seeing teams surprise. And in terms of objectivity, the rankings are based on subjective evaluation of high school prospects by 'experts' who have no more credentials for actually evaluating prospects than you and I. It's simply that it's their job to try and do so.

2) Our recruiting, regardless of ranking, has been among the worst in college football since a few years prior to P's departure. So unless your contention is that somehow P forgot how to recruit and then we hired four subsequent terribly incompetent staffs of recruiters, then I would suggest that there are a set of circumstances in place that, quite simply, make it difficult to recruit to syracuse. Facilities, game-day atmosphere, location, budget (recruiting and coaching staff salaries), etc. I don't care which ones folks want to point to, the only way it's not that is if you're feeling is that we simply haven't hired a single staff of solid recruiters in the past 25 years.

3) 4- and 5-star players. Forget for the moment that our most recent examples of 4- and 5-star players largely haven't performed to that level, what time are you pointing to when we landed handfuls of 4-star players? It hasn't happened in my lifetime as a fan unless perhaps you argue that it was the case during the Mac era (that was before stars came about but maybe we held more sway? Followed those teams but can't claim to know exactly how those recruits were viewed at that time). Even when we were regularly pumping out really good NFL players in the 90s, we weren't signing a boatload of 4-star, top 250 type kids. We were mining NJ and Florida, turning over rocks for players that were undervalued (Nebraska was the only other QB offer of significance for McNabb, Morlon Greenwood was late to football, Kevin Johnson was signed as a QB ...). The simple truth is that, while we were signing more highly sought after kids at that point, we weren't signing a boatload of 4-star kids every year.

4) When we were pulling in that talent during the majority of the P era, Rutgers was a joke, Temple was a joke, BC was dealing with the aftermath of their scandal, Pitt was mostly brutal in the Hackett/Majors Pt. 2 eras, UConn and Buffalo essentially didn't exist, Wisconsin was one of the only programs from outside the region that I remember that heavily recruited NJ on a regular basis, etc. PedSt did their thing but we basically were the only credible program in the northeast. That didn't hurt.

I don't know, I've tired of this by this point. But just so we're clear -- you offered no facts, and your general stance that 'recruiting needs to improve' is shared by most here. The 'excuses' for crappy recruiting are in fact real obstacles, by and large (are we still not aligned on the fact that the weather in upstate NY -- by any objective metric -- blows? Really?). The landscape of college football is tilted heavily in favor of the factories -- there are traditional powers that, for the most part, can't compete with the elite SEC teams -- Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Michigan, Nebraska, PedSt.

We all hope recruiting can improve and we can at least be a generally competitive program in most years, but expecting us to start pulling in a bunch of 4-stars, at the very least without establishing a credible, winning program, is patently absurd.
Thanks for your thoughts. You make two statements I 100% agree with and its interesting. You say "we all hope recruiting can improve" and you also say "and your (my) stance that recruiting needs to improve is shared by most here". The point of my post was in reply to those on here that continually say "our recruiting is great, trust the coaches on these kids with 1 or no other P5 offers, our recruiting DOES NOT need to improve" etc etc etc. Since you and I are in agreement that our recruiting needs to improve, lets just talk about why its been so bad. I welcome your thoughts and or observations.

You also mentioned facts or lack of. Every year many groups, magazines, recruiting services, ESPN etc etc etc rank college football recruiting classes. So that we have a starting point for conversation can we use these as a basis? What metric would you use to measure incoming recruiting classes vs each other?

Finally you mentioned the weather. Can we agree that Syracuse DOESN'T play in bad weather but instead plays in one of the most recognizable indoor stadiums in all of college Football. The weather is bad in Boston, WV, Pitt, Mich, State of Washington, Illinois, Minnesota etc etc who all play football outside?
 

RF2044

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Thanks for your thoughts. You make two statements I 100% agree with and its interesting. You say "we all hope recruiting can improve" and you also say "and your (my) stance that recruiting needs to improve is shared by most here". The point of my post was in reply to those on here that continually say "our recruiting is great, trust the coaches on these kids with 1 or no other P5 offers, our recruiting DOES NOT need to improve" etc etc etc. Since you and I are in agreement that our recruiting needs to improve, lets just talk about why its been so bad. I welcome your thoughts and or observations.

You also mentioned facts or lack of. Every year many groups, magazines, recruiting services, ESPN etc etc etc rank college football recruiting classes. So that we have a starting point for conversation can we use these as a basis? What metric would you use to measure incoming recruiting classes vs each other?

Finally you mentioned the weather. Can we agree that Syracuse DOESN'T play in bad weather but instead plays in one of the most recognizable indoor stadiums in all of college Football. The weather is bad in Boston, WV, Pitt, Mich, State of Washington, Illinois, Minnesota etc etc who all play football outside?
I started ignoring your schtick last year, after you went on and on about a DT Syracuse wasn't recruiting who ended up signing with Division II Concordia, but I have to respond to this asinine post, because it is an absolute crock.

I invite you to please find ANY reference, anywhere in any thread, where even one poster suggests that "...our recruiting DOES NOT need to improve." We both know that you won't be able to provide proof of that completely BS straw man.

What I HAVE seen is posters push back on your fatalist viewpoint about some of our recruits, some of whom aren't rated highly and / or don't have many P5 offers when they commit early [examples - Bergeron and Benson]. That's a big difference, the subtlety of which is apparently lost on you.

There are many posters here who contribute a tremendous amount of insight and knowledge about recruiting, despite your perpetual whining and hand wringing about them in seemingly every post, because they don't share your sky is falling point of view. Compared to many of these posters, you don't even begin to rate. Your schtick is tired and deserves to be ignored -- and judging from this thread, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Unsubscribe.
 
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billsin01

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Thanks for your thoughts. You make two statements I 100% agree with and its interesting. You say "we all hope recruiting can improve" and you also say "and your (my) stance that recruiting needs to improve is shared by most here". The point of my post was in reply to those on here that continually say "our recruiting is great, trust the coaches on these kids with 1 or no other P5 offers, our recruiting DOES NOT need to improve" etc etc etc. Since you and I are in agreement that our recruiting needs to improve, lets just talk about why its been so bad. I welcome your thoughts and or observations.

You also mentioned facts or lack of. Every year many groups, magazines, recruiting services, ESPN etc etc etc rank college football recruiting classes. So that we have a starting point for conversation can we use these as a basis? What metric would you use to measure incoming recruiting classes vs each other?

Finally you mentioned the weather. Can we agree that Syracuse DOESN'T play in bad weather but instead plays in one of the most recognizable indoor stadiums in all of college Football. The weather is bad in Boston, WV, Pitt, Mich, State of Washington, Illinois, Minnesota etc etc who all play football outside?
my point on the class rankings is only that they are purely subjective. Now my opinion is that they’re basically a reflection of what we already know for the most part. I’ll take a stab at the 2021 top 25 classes — 7 or 8 SEC teams, Michigan, Ohio State, penn State, USC, ND, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida State, Clemson, Oregon, miami, Baylor, Iowa, Wisconsin And a couple other schools. It’s basically the same every year.

bit if you don’t agree with me on that — whatever. Regardless there is zero objectivity.

The point is only that the weather is a factor because it’s a cold weather area. Love CNY but the weather is going to be a bit of an obstacle with at least some recruits when you’re trying to pull out of southern states. A fact of life.
 

IthacaBarrel

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I started ignoring your schtick last year, after you went on and on about a DT Syracuse wasn't recruiting who ended up signing with Division II Concordia, but I have to respond to this asinine post, because it is an absolute crock.

I invite you to please find ANY reference, anywhere in any thread, where even one poster suggests that "...our recruiting DOES NOT need to improve." We both know that you won't be able to provide proof of that completely BS straw man.

What I HAVE seen is posters push back on your fatalist viewpoint about some of our recruits, some of whom aren't rated highly and / or don't have many P5 offers when they commit early [examples - Bergeron and Benson]. That's a big difference, the subtlety of which is apparently lost on you.

There are many posters here who contribute a tremendous amount of insight and knowledge about recruiting, despite your perpetual whining and hand wringing about them in seemingly every post, because they don't share your sky is falling point of view. Compared to many of these posters, you don't even begin to rate. Your schtick is tired and deserves to be ignored -- and judging from this thread, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Unsubscribe.

Good post, RF

Syracuse is just a tough sell and I think we have five coaches that would all agree. P, GROB, Marrone, Shafer and now Dino. but the 6th coach will be the guy that can really recruit!!!! That's where the magic potion is. NO EXCUSES!!! Again, there is a logical progression here and a path for reasoning but many don't want to follow. Tough week on the recruiting forum

Hell GROB all things considered was probably the best recruiter of any of them but by far the worst coach obviously. The best two teams we have had the past 10 years had some great seniors that were all pretty much 3 star kids that developed and got the most out of their ability. That's syracuse recruiting. 3 star kids with some flyers on athletic kids with potential 2 stars/ low 3 that need coaching and a lot of work. Take it or leave it.

What's funny is those teams were all lead by seniors who were recruited by another head coach that couldn't recruit or win enough games.
 
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General Joe

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I started ignoring your schtick last year, after you went on and on about a DT Syracuse wasn't recruiting who ended up signing with Division II Concordia, but I have to respond to this asinine post, because it is an absolute crock.

I invite you to please find ANY reference, anywhere in any thread, where even one poster suggests that "...our recruiting DOES NOT need to improve." We both know that you won't be able to provide proof of that completely BS straw man.

What I HAVE seen is posters push back on your fatalist viewpoint about some of our recruits, some of whom aren't rated highly and / or don't have many P5 offers when they commit early [examples - Bergeron and Benson]. That's a big difference, the subtlety of which is apparently lost on you.

There are many posters here who contribute a tremendous amount of insight and knowledge about recruiting, despite your perpetual whining and hand wringing about them in seemingly every post, because they don't share your sky is falling point of view. Compared to many of these posters, you don't even begin to rate. Your schtick is tired and deserves to be ignored -- and judging from this thread, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Unsubscribe.
The tackle you referenced is Marcus Eason. Very talented football player with offers from Tex Tech, Iowa ST, Ole Miss, Miss st, Rutgers Syracuse and a ton of non P5 teams EVEN with his injury, move and problems in the classroom. Many talented athletes haven't had the opportunity to showcase that talent because of grades. Its too bad wishing him the best.

But now to the breaking news.
Just so we are clear, are you indeed saying our recruiting needs to improve? If so how would you currently assess it under HCDB? Good, below avg, bad?

BTW I thought the sky had fallen. I believe you and I had a back and forth a year ago when i predicted a 6 win or less season based on our recruiting classes while many ( and i think you) in your lets say group screamed 10 or 11 wins and battling Clemson for the title. We finished 2 and 9 vs P5 teams. There is no sky it fell with HCDB's recruiting.
 
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RF2044

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The tackle you referenced is Marcus Eason. Very talented football player with offers from Tex Tech, Iowa ST, Ole Miss, Miss st, Rutgers Syracuse and a ton of non P5 teams EVEN with his injury, move and problems in the classroom. Many talented athletes haven't had the opportunity to showcase that talent because of grades. Its too bad wishing him the best.

But now to the breaking news.
Just so we are clear, are you indeed saying our recruiting needs to improve? If so how would you currently assess it under HCDB? Good, below avg, bad?

BTW I thought the sky had fallen. I believe you and I had a back and forth a year ago when i predicted a 6 win or less season based on our recruiting classes while many ( and i think you) in your lets say group screamed 10 or 11 wins and battling Clemson for the title. We finished 2 and 9 vs P5 teams. There is no sky it fell with HCDB's HCDB's recruting.
A broken clock is right twice a day, too. The major difference being that a broken clock doesn't break it's arm attempting to pat itself on the back for being accidentally right.

Again, BS. Please feel free to link to any post where i predicted 10 or 11 wins last year. More straw man BS.

Get over yourself. I'm sorry if my post above was pointed -- but some things need to be said.

I'm going to go back to ignoring you.
 
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