The Logical Fallacy Some Fans Have Embraced To Justify Their Criticism Of Boeheim

[Cusesky8214]

 

[SuFTW]

Do you honestly believe that Etan knows what is happening behind the scenes? IMO, Etan was reacting like a fan and not like someone informed. I'm not a blind JAB apologist. I almost threw my remote through the screen at the end of the WVU game when it took so long to get Kadary back in the game. I couldn't understand it but I will give the Head Coach that is actually coaching the team the benefit of the doubt. There must be a logical explanation as to why. In fact, I don't seem to recall anybody in the post game presser ask why. Maybe they did and I missed it.

I was wondering the same thing about Kadary and came up with the theory that he kept Girard in for foul shots.

 

[kcsu]

Thank you. And I believe he did only play them when he thought it was a good idea. That was the problem. He was wrong.

Here are a few facts.

JB is very stubborn. He made his kids return an Iphone they gave him for Christmas.

JB reads watches follows every blog post article tweet... About him and the team. It really matters to him.

JB cares deeply about his family his players, his University and his community.

JB is a great coach.

Jim is complex. Stubborn to a fault but a very good person and amazing coach. At this point i think he really misses have Hop. Ive posted this numerous times but Hop provided a balance within the program that hasn't and will never be replaced. If Hop were still at Jims side we wouldn't be worried about kids transferring and we would be crushing it on the recruiting front.
Jim and the program has never replaced him.

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

I would not fire him personally. But I also don't think he's above criticism, as some here seem to think.

when was the last time a team won 5 games in 5 days to win a conference tourney?

There’s nothing wrong with being critical if it’s constructive and based on being educated on the subject matter. Otherwise it’s just an opinion and there is a significant difference in how each should be perceived.

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

I was wondering the same thing about Kadary and came up with the theory that he kept Girard in for foul shots.

It was the only thing I could think of as well. My kids thought I had lost my mind yelling at someone on television that could not hear me. Thankfully, JAB relented and put in Kadary and it was so good to hear him call it the play of the game. Think about that. Above and beyond anything that Marek had singly done in the entire game and there were more than a few. That to me was coach letting Kadary know that he knows how valuable he is to the team.

 

[JustPherU]

Okay, let me take another go at it...

It's the causal fallacy, specifically a correlational fallacy.

The implicit claim Boeheim's rotation critics were advancing a month+ ago was that poor team performance early-mid season occurred because the coach did not play his reserves when members of the First Team were struggling in one way or another. A secondary, related argument was that playing those reserves earlier in the year--at any excuse, actually--was going to enhance overall team development more than failing to do so, cuz reserves are so important (and they are).

That's an opinion.

While I disagree with that POV, it's the follow up argument Boeheim's critics have been advancing lately that I'm declaring fallacious: that because the reserves are playing more now and the team is playing superbly--in part because the reserves have been making important contributions--their earlier claims that the reserves should be playing more then have been vindicated.

That conclusion is not justified by the known facts. I say that because it can be shown that Boeheim not playing his reserves more earlier--the actual facts of history we are assessing--has resulted in the superb team play we've witnessed lately.

His critics counter that the reason they've been playing better is because the reserves have been playing more recently and demonstrating that they can contribute. But that coincidence/correlation does not prove that their criticism of Boeheim's earlier decisions to not play the bench more was justified.

The fact is, both outcomes (more bench, better team performance) could have been directly attributable to Boeheim not playing the bench more earlier.

I thought I explained why pretty well in the OP, but I'll give it another go...

___________________________________________

It should be abundantly obvious that Boeheim's #1 concern every season is being able to put five players on the court who--as a team--can beat the best five of those teams he'll face in the NCAAT. Those five will get all the PT that he believes they need to be able to become such a team at the end of the year.

Of course Boeheim & every other coach knows that they need key reserves that they'll turn to when someone's in foul trouble or being dominated at their position. Most years he can go 7 deep, other years 8 deep like this year, other years only 6. He wants to develop those 6-8 players optimally, but not at the expense of the starting five if they are making too many mistakes.

That's the problem. Sure, Boeheim knows that his 6-12 players would all benefit with some generous PT, but he'd have to be a coaching fool to sacrifice the performance/development of his starting five by doling out their PT to bench players because it would be good for the bench players if he did so.

So that's the big consideration. The inescapable trade-off. It's the reason why Boeheim--especially early in the season--is ALWAYS going to keep his starters in the game if the outcome is at all in doubt, if he believes they need it to improve as a unit, cuz he's thinking end-of-season performance.

That's why all coaches make their best guess at which 5-7 players have the ability to develop as a team over the course of a season to where they are hopefully 'unstoppable.' He wants them to get all the time, the repetitions, they need working together to where their team play is on an instinctive level (see Loyola Chicago) by the end of the season.

And yes, the 6-8 players also need some time playing with the starters if they've going to be at all helpful and not a detriment. So their PT is important too, but only if your starting five's development allows it.

This is why Boeheim had a good reason for not playing his reserves when his starting five was struggling to win games. They clearly had a lot to learn as a unit, and that means sufficient PT to get there.

At the same time that his reserves were not playing during this 'difficult time' for the team, they were nevertheless improving throughout the season during practice. That's the development that Boeheim was looking for from his reserves over the course of the season, that gained from practice.

From previous seasons, he's seen his less-experienced players learn a lot over the course of a season and most especially toward the end of the season. That is when he was expecting that they might be 'ready' to contribute without making serious in-game errors and without having handicapped the development of the starting five when they needed most of the PT to get better as a unit.

So why is it that the reserves are playing more now and making contributions to the team's success?

Quite plausibly, it is because the starting five have developed well enough (cuz they got the PT they needed earlier) for the reserves to be more effectively blended into the mix and because the reserves have improved enough in practice to where they are now ready to contribute.



So there's a reason why Boeheim's rotation critics are wrong in their belief that they possess a keen insight into coaching that has escaped JB. Playing a deeper bench earlier in the season at the expense of the starting five could very well have held back the development of the starting five, making the current run an impossibility.

Developing the bench in practice at the same time that the starters are ironing out all the mistakes that had been holding them back in actual games was clearly the reason why Boeheim wasn't playing the bench more earlier and it would account for the eventual outcome we've seen: superb team play and greater contributions from the bench (with fewer mistakes than they would have committed in games earlier, cuz they understand better how to execute Boeheim's Plan on both defense & offense.)

So yeah, when Boeheim said his players were not "ready" earlier, he was not saying that he didn't foresee them ever being ready down the road, which is what his critics seemed to just assume when they were getting themselves all worked up about the way JB was developing his team.

I hope that helps...

Great stuff, I couldn’t of said it better.
I mean literally no way in heck could I have wrote what you just did.
Some people just don’t get it boss, but I’m glad there is someone like you on here to explain it.

 

[kidorange]

Great stuff, I couldn’t of said it better.
I mean literally no way in heck could I have wrote what you just did.
Some people just don’t get it boss, but I’m glad there is someone like you on here to explain it.

Juli has an account AND a burner account??

 

[NineOneSeven]

Okay, let me take another go at it...

It's the causal fallacy, specifically a correlational fallacy.

The implicit claim Boeheim's rotation critics were advancing a month+ ago was that poor team performance early-mid season occurred because the coach did not play his reserves when members of the First Team were struggling in one way or another. A secondary, related argument was that playing those reserves earlier in the year--at any excuse, actually--was going to enhance overall team development more than failing to do so, cuz reserves are so important (and they are).

That's an opinion.

While I disagree with that POV, it's the follow up argument Boeheim's critics have been advancing lately that I'm declaring fallacious: that because the reserves are playing more now and the team is playing superbly--in part because the reserves have been making important contributions--their earlier claims that the reserves should be playing more then have been vindicated.

That conclusion is not justified by the known facts. I say that because it can be shown that Boeheim not playing his reserves more earlier--the actual facts of history we are assessing--has resulted in the superb team play we've witnessed lately.

His critics counter that the reason they've been playing better is because the reserves have been playing more recently and demonstrating that they can contribute. But that coincidence/correlation does not prove that their criticism of Boeheim's earlier decisions to not play the bench more was justified.

The fact is, both outcomes (more bench, better team performance) could have been directly attributable to Boeheim not playing the bench more earlier.

I thought I explained why pretty well in the OP, but I'll give it another go...

___________________________________________

It should be abundantly obvious that Boeheim's #1 concern every season is being able to put five players on the court who--as a team--can beat the best five of those teams he'll face in the NCAAT. Those five will get all the PT that he believes they need to be able to become such a team at the end of the year.

Of course Boeheim & every other coach knows that they need key reserves that they'll turn to when someone's in foul trouble or being dominated at their position. Most years he can go 7 deep, other years 8 deep like this year, other years only 6. He wants to develop those 6-8 players optimally, but not at the expense of the starting five if they are making too many mistakes.

That's the problem. Sure, Boeheim knows that his 6-12 players would all benefit with some generous PT, but he'd have to be a coaching fool to sacrifice the performance/development of his starting five by doling out their PT to bench players because it would be good for the bench players if he did so.

So that's the big consideration. The inescapable trade-off. It's the reason why Boeheim--especially early in the season--is ALWAYS going to keep his starters in the game if the outcome is at all in doubt, if he believes they need it to improve as a unit, cuz he's thinking end-of-season performance.

That's why all coaches make their best guess at which 5-7 players have the ability to develop as a team over the course of a season to where they are hopefully 'unstoppable.' He wants them to get all the time, the repetitions, they need working together to where their team play is on an instinctive level (see Loyola Chicago) by the end of the season.

And yes, the 6-8 players also need some time playing with the starters if they've going to be at all helpful and not a detriment. So their PT is important too, but only if your starting five's development allows it.

This is why Boeheim had a good reason for not playing his reserves when his starting five was struggling to win games. They clearly had a lot to learn as a unit, and that means sufficient PT to get there.

At the same time that his reserves were not playing during this 'difficult time' for the team, they were nevertheless improving throughout the season during practice. That's the development that Boeheim was looking for from his reserves over the course of the season, that gained from practice.

From previous seasons, he's seen his less-experienced players learn a lot over the course of a season and most especially toward the end of the season. That is when he was expecting that they might be 'ready' to contribute without making serious in-game errors and without having handicapped the development of the starting five when they needed most of the PT to get better as a unit.

So why is it that the reserves are playing more now and making contributions to the team's success?

Quite plausibly, it is because the starting five have developed well enough (cuz they got the PT they needed earlier) for the reserves to be more effectively blended into the mix and because the reserves have improved enough in practice to where they are now ready to contribute.



So there's a reason why Boeheim's rotation critics are wrong in their belief that they possess a keen insight into coaching that has escaped JB. Playing a deeper bench earlier in the season at the expense of the starting five could very well have held back the development of the starting five, making the current run an impossibility.

Developing the bench in practice at the same time that the starters are ironing out all the mistakes that had been holding them back in actual games was clearly the reason why Boeheim wasn't playing the bench more earlier and it would account for the eventual outcome we've seen: superb team play and greater contributions from the bench (with fewer mistakes than they would have committed in games earlier, cuz they understand better how to execute Boeheim's Plan on both defense & offense.)

So yeah, when Boeheim said his players were not "ready" earlier, he was not saying that he didn't foresee them ever being ready down the road, which is what his critics seemed to just assume when they were getting themselves all worked up about the way JB was developing his team.

I hope that helps...

Take a breath..

 

[CuseCPT]

Juli has an account AND a burner account??

I'm starting to think this thread is one of Gmac's additional duties and he looked around in his closet and found his textbook from PHI251 - Logic and went to town.

 

[Bball44]

The problem for me were the takes earlier in the season that JB was being selfish for staying on to coach his son and he longer cared about winning. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, it's a fact that JB is all about winning and it turns out that Buddy is the key to that now.

 

[Red Holzman]

A fevered chorus of criticism of "a fevered chorus of criticism".
How fortunate that SU eked it's way into March Madness, then made this run to the Sweet 16 that "real fans" have seized as the opportunity to present their agenda.

Would prefer that SU fans be celebrating and enjoying the hype preceding a Sweet 16 game-
But taking on other members of the fan base is how some want to roll right now.

We are ALL SU fans.
This thread has accomplished nothing, and will accomplish nothing.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Do you honestly believe that Etan knows what is happening behind the scenes? IMO, Etan was reacting like a fan and not like someone informed. I'm not a blind JAB apologist. I almost threw my remote through the screen at the end of the WVU game when it took so long to get Kadary back in the game. I couldn't understand it but I will give the Head Coach that is actually coaching the team the benefit of the doubt. There must be a logical explanation as to why. In fact, I don't seem to recall anybody in the post game presser ask why. Maybe they did and I missed it.

I'm on the Kadary side of this but what people have to admit is that whatever buttons JB pushed with Joe they worked and he has drained some huge shots for us over 2 games.

 

[kirbivore]

Respectfully disagree qqq. Jesse shined when Marek got in foul trouble and JB was FORCED to play him. Richmond got minutes when JG had problems with the press, chucking up bad 3s or made a bone head play. JB is just stubborn and is afraid to experiment.

Buddy’s Covid was the only reason Kadary got early minutes

 

[Eric15]

He made his kids return an Iphone they gave him for Christmas.

My favorite sentence of this thread by far.

"Why would I need an iPhone when this LG Dare makes calls also?"

 

[Cstate]

I'm on the Kadary side of this but what people have to admit is that whatever buttons JB pushed with Joe they worked and he has drained some huge shots for us over 2 games.

Agreed. Kadary is going to be a very good player, but Joe’s slash line has been 12 pts / 6 boards / 7 assists each of the last two games against top 25 teams while going 7/16 from 3...if that was Kadary’s line everyone would be saying “he gone” and there would be 15 threads about him. As it is now, every single thread on this board turns into the Kadary debate.

 

[Ceerqqq]

A fevered chorus of criticism of "a fevered chorus of criticism".
How fortunate that SU eked it's way into March Madness, then made this run to the Sweet 16 that "real fans" have seized as the opportunity to present their agenda.

Would prefer that SU fans be celebrating and enjoying the hype preceding a Sweet 16 game-
But taking on other members of the fan base is how some want to roll right now.

We are ALL SU fans.
This thread has accomplished nothing, and will accomplish nothing.

I find it interesting how many fans such as yourself choose not to answer the arguments that I've been presenting against your complaints re: Boeheim's mid-season coaching...at all

Nothing. No counter-arguments. No attempts to explain why my arguments are dubious or flawed.

No, just these accusations that those who defend Boeheim are mean-spirited people who love to hate them.

How's this? In the same way you portray yourselves as 'real fans' who just have some complaints about certain aspects of Boeheim's coaching, I and the others who defend Boeheim view you all as members of the family whom we disagree with re: certain aspects of your views of Boeheim's coaching decisions.

Can you accept that?

 

[Cusesky8214]

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

This just in from the President:

View attachment 198742

I like how it’s repeating, as if he has forgotten what he just said.

 

[two3zone]

Agreed. Kadary is going to be a very good player, but Joe’s slash line has been 12 pts / 6 boards / 7 assists each of the last two games against top 25 teams while going 7/16 from 3...if that was Kadary’s line everyone would be saying “he gone” and there would be 15 threads about him. As it is now, every single thread on this board turns into the Kadary debate.

Even with the line he has against WV I’d be willing to bet he was close to even or a minus for the game while he was in. The mistakes he makes aren’t just mistakes and play on, his bad shots always seem to result in the other team running the court and getting an easy basket and his turnovers are mid court and also lead to easy baskets.

Nobody loves stats more than me, but these stats in particular do not tell the entire story.

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

I'm on the Kadary side of this but what people have to admit is that whatever buttons JB pushed with Joe they worked and he has drained some huge shots for us over 2 games.

I am on the side of whomever can get the nets cut down at the Final Four. I am sure you feel the same way. The 'Cuse will need every player contributing at the highest level. Yes, I am Captain Obvious today.

 

[jsshap]

I find it interesting how many fans such as yourself choose not to answer the arguments that I've been presenting against your complaints re: Boeheim's mid-season coaching...at all

Nothing. No counter-arguments. No attempts to explain why my arguments are dubious or flawed.

No, just these accusations that those who defend Boeheim are mean-spirited people who love to hate them.

How's this? In the same way you portray yourselves as 'real fans' who just have some complaints about certain aspects of Boeheim's coaching, I and the others who defend Boeheim view you all as members of the family whom we disagree with re: certain aspects of your views of Boeheim's coaching decisions.

Can you accept that?

If we accept that any criticism re PT is wrong bc JB knows best always, is it at least permissible to criticize him for not having a backup center on the roster who WAS ready (or even knowing initially which of the 3 on the roster was closest to being ready) or is that out of bounds too?

 

[Ceerqqq]

If we accept that any criticism re PT is wrong bc JB knows best always, is it at least permissible to criticize him for not having a backup center on the roster who WAS ready (or even knowing initially which of the 3 on the roster was closest to being ready) or is that out of bounds too?

No "suspicion of Boeheim's failings" is out of bounds.

People have opinions. But some learn to offer them with a good deal of caution when they're pitting their wits vs a coach as successful as Boeheim. Fans can certainly express their doubts about Boeheim's decisions without it sounding incredibly disrespectful and insulting.

Boeheim does have 'weaknesses' as a college basketball coach in an overall sense. We've seen for decades now that he didn't come into the job with an abundance of the kind of personal charm (like Pitino and maybe even Calipari) that can pull in Top 10 recruits on a regular basis. He's never been a slick salesman. So over his career, he has not had a sustained record of stockpiling 5-star talent.

BUT he has been able to consistently pull in sufficient quantities of Second Tier talent (and even an occasional 5-star stud) into his program who can be coached into playing well enough as a team to defeat Top Tier players in the ACC and NCAAT. Add to that the fact that there are none better at developing a team over the course of a 4-month season and his exceptional game-coaching abilities.

So he's never been the Complete Package that many SU fans have wet dreams about, but those coaches are extraordinarily rare and none of them will come to Syracuse and stay for any length of time. (Look at how successful the football program has been at getting such "Complete Package" coaches to come to Syracuse...)

Top tier centers are extremely rare, but second-tier centers with potential to become elite are more readily found. The only problem is they usually require a lot of development. Rakeem Christmas was "not ready" his first couple of years to become the player he would eventually become.

So yeah, you can Blame Boeheim for not having any MDAA's or 5-star players on this year's team and dream about the University getting lucky with Boeheim's replacement. Another option is to marvel at and enjoy what Boeheim was able to do again this year with the Second Tier talent he had to work with...

 

[Cusesky8214]

 

[rrlbees]

The best part of this thread is that nobody on either side knows why this player started and this player didn’t or why this player got x minutes and that player got y minutes. Nobody on either side knows exactly what the injury or illness status was of each player. Everyone is making assumptions.

 

[jsshap]

No "suspicion of Boeheim's failings" is out of bounds.

People have opinions. But some learn to offer them with a good deal of caution when they're pitting their wits vs a coach as successful as Boeheim. Fans can certainly express their doubts about Boeheim's decisions without it sounding incredibly disrespectful and insulting.

Boeheim does have 'weaknesses' as a college basketball coach in an overall sense. We've seen for decades now that he didn't come into the job with an abundance of the kind of personal charm (like Pitino and maybe even Calipari) that can pull in Top 10 recruits on a regular basis. He's never been a slick salesman. So over his career, he has not had a sustained record of stockpiling 5-star talent.

BUT he has been able to consistently pull in sufficient quantities of Second Tier talent (and even an occasional 5-star stud) into his program who can be coached into playing well enough as a team to defeat Top Tier players in the ACC and NCAAT. Add to that the fact that there are none better at developing a team over the course of a 4-month season and his exceptional game-coaching abilities.

So he's never been the Complete Package that many SU fans have wet dreams about, but those coaches are extraordinarily rare and none of them will come to Syracuse and stay for any length of time. (Look at how successful the football program has been at getting such "Complete Package" coaches to come to Syracuse...)

Top tier centers are extremely rare, but second-tier centers with potential to become elite are more readily found. The only problem is they usually require a lot of development. Rakeem Christmas was "not ready" his first couple of years to become the player he would eventually become.

So yeah, you can Blame Boeheim for not having any MDAA's or 5-star players on this year's team and dream about the University getting lucky with Boeheim's replacement. Another option is to marvel at and enjoy what Boeheim was able to do again this year with the Second Tier talent he had to work with...

Cmon. With respect that’s such a silly straw man argument. There is more than a little space between having a 5 star as your backup and having one of 3 centers (2 in their second year) ready to provide 10-15 meaningful minutes. Whether it was poor recruiting or poor coaching or Edwards was in fact ready enough to help you are really doing some crazy contortions to avoid agreeing that least one of those criticisms is fair. Anyway enough. Sorry to add to this tortured thread. Almost go time. Lgo