The Logical Fallacy Some Fans Have Embraced To Justify Their Criticism Of Boeheim

[NateW]

It does seem that there's a segment of the fanbase (a fairly vocal one here. at least over the past 24-48 hours, I see) that appears to be happier that we've advanced in the tourney not because we're in the Sweet 16, but because they feel like they now have bragging rights over SU fans who've been critical of the state & trajectory of the program.

Instead of enjoying the tourney, and looking forward to the Houston matchup, we're left with this.

Very weird, and quite pathetic. JMO.

Do you want Jim Boeheim fired?

 

[samspann1]

Do you want Jim Boeheim fired?

Massive non-sequitur, but no, he cannot be fired. No way it would ever happen, absent some massive scandal.

 

[NateW]

Massive non-sequitur, but no, he cannot be fired. No way it would ever happen, absent some massive scandal.

I’m asking you... if it was up to you. Would you fire Jim Boeheim and replace him?

 

[City of Cuse]

So one site that listed UNC as having the 5th best odds (out of 14th) of winning the ACCT in 2020 = UNC was a favorite to win the ACCT?

When this same site releases their Super Bowl odds for 2021, will the team with the 11th best odds be a "favorite" to win the SB?

Huh? I never said they were a favorite. I'm saying they were being talked about as being a trendy pick because of their decent finish and that they were finally healthy. The 14th seed being in top 5 odds to win the tourney proves this thought. This isn't some Mandela effect, it happened.

The source I provided, and endless other items you can find if you search for it or even listen to the comments made before our acc game with them indicate the narrative.

Go Cuse!

 

[NateW]

It’s the own the Libs mindset.

Plain and simple. Don’t enjoy the moment but want to own the proverbial other “side”.

I know I’m on Russia’s payroll. Lol.

 

[Alsacs]

I know I’m on Russia’s payroll. Lol.

Good job. I appreciate you getting the humor I wasn’t serious. As we are all fans of SU.

 

[NateW]

Good job. I appreciate you getting the humor I wasn’t serious. As we are all fans of SU.

Agreed. Also, I know you are truly enjoying the run.

 

[samspann1]

I’m asking you... if it was up to you. Would you fire Jim Boeheim and replace him?

I would not fire him personally. But I also don't think he's above criticism, as some here seem to think.

Huh? I never said they were a favorite. I'm saying they were being talked about as being a trendy pick because of their decent finish and that they were finally healthy. The 14th seed being in top 5 odds to win the tourney proves this thought. This isn't some Mandela effect, it happened.

The source I provided, and endless other items you can find if you search for it or even listen to the comments made before our acc game with them indicate the narrative.

Go Cuse!

when was the last time a team won 5 games in 5 days to win a conference tourney?

 

[bigmike]

This just in from the President:

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

Hey, we all have opinions and that's fine. What I find repellent is the added smug insinuations that Boeheim doesn't know everything that fans know plus a hell of a lot more. It's ridiculous.

I've never heard it put better. Obviously JAB is not God but he is a helluva lot closer that anybody on this board. Unless, you know, you've been playing and coaching over 45 years. It is so ridiculous that is literally makes me laugh out loud.

 

[City of Cuse]

I would not fire him personally. But I also don't think he's above criticism, as some here seem to think.

when was the last time a team won 5 games in 5 days to win a conference tourney?

Your favorite team, UConn.

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

This is such a chicken and the egg argument. The truth is, we’ll never know for sure either way.

Even with the results we’re seeing now, we don’t have all of the facts at our disposal. We don’t know the full extent of COVID affecting certain players, as upperdeck pointed out. We don’t know if playing Edwards earlier would have made him complacent, rather than continuing to work hard to get where he is now. (And he’s still very much a work in progress. He did not play well against WVU.) We don’t know how fragile Girard’s psyche is. (We do know that both Girard and Richmond need to play and play well for this team to reach its ceiling.) We don’t know if there were any lingering effects with Braswell’s injury.

And players do start to get it as the season goes along. There have been at least 44 articles written since Sunday stating just that. That goes for both the starters and reserves. Our starting five played their best defense of the year in the first half against WVU.

Finally, if it’s just a matter of JB stubborn, then he wouldn’t have started playing these guys more at all. There was a reason for it, and I highly doubt it was because someone got to him. Not Wildhack, not Red, not Guttierez, not Pat from Syracuse, not Juli, not Etan, not Jesse’s mom, not Bilas, not even Buddy. He made the decision on his own and it wasn’t for job security.

Exactly, which makes it even more baffling when a guy like Etan that actually played for him doesn't get it by now.

 

[Eric15]

Obviously JAB is not God but he is a helluva lot closer that anybody on this board.

Well that was kind of cringe worthy.

 

[rrlbees]

Exactly, which makes it even more baffling when a guy like Etan that actually played for him doesn't get it by now.

eh, someone interviewed etan (maybe the devo podcast) and he was asked about his support of edwards. He said something like he always supports the big guys. Said he did the same with Sidibe and chukwu. Said the big guys are his boys.

 

[djcon57]

eh, someone interviewed etan (maybe the devo podcast) and he was asked about his support of edwards. He said something like he always supports the big guys. Said he did the same with Sidibe and chukwu. Said the big guys are his boys.

And his Kadary posts?

 

[orangecuse]

And his Kadary posts?

Just STOP Etan! Have you ever played the game, let alone being above 5'2"? Oh wait...

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

Just STOP Etan! Have you ever played the game, let alone being above 5'2"? Oh wait...

I mean you just made the point. Etan has played and he should know how things work.

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

Well that was kind of cringe worthy.

Apologies, written communication often doesn't give direct indication of hyperbole or sarcasm. The point wasn't to demean the opinions of others, it was meant to drive home that the man just might know what the $#@! he is talking about after 45 years and maybe folks should give benefit of the doubt. Especially considering how many behind the scenes variables that dictate playing time.

 

[RF2044]

There's a lot of content in this thread, so I'm not going to read this all. But to the OP, I don't think that there's a logical fallacy at all.

High major college athletics is a performance based profession. Earlier in the year, the team's performance was subpar, and our rotation exacerbated some of the team's on-paper issues.

Toward the end of the season [after the embarrassing UVa / Duke blowouts], the team began playing better, and JB expanded the rotation. And the results got a lot better.

It's fine to criticize through the lens of hindsight, but it doesn't mean posters who were clamoring for some of the things that eventually came to be were wrong.

In my mind, a couple of things happened:

• Buddy morphed into a true go-to guy, and got en fuego
• Our rotation expanded to a legit 8-player rotation
• Edwards gave us not just 5 extra fouls, but improved interior defense / shot blocking / rebounding
• Braswell [who played a lot throughout the season] suddenly became a consistent ~10ppg scorer
• JB put JGIII on a shorter leash if he wasn't producing [and played him more / in conjunction with Kadary when he was]

That all of those things occurred essentially simultaneously the last 1/4 of the season is a BIG reason why the team got a lot more competitive, got better defensively, and became much more formidable.

Again, not seeing the logical fallacy.

JB might not be on the Mt. Rushmore of college coaches, but he's in the top next tier, IMO. He's an all time great. My opinion only, but I don't believe that can be disputed. But despite all that, the team wasn't performing -- and it began to perform like a top 15-ish [or better] team once the HOF coach made late season adjustments that ran counter to what he was doing for the first 3/4 of the season.

 

[SWC75]

If we are arguing that we should have gotten good earlier, then I guess were in pretty good shape.

 

[samspann1]

Your favorite team, UConn.

pretty sure that UConn was a middle of the pack BE team, and they were ranked heading into the tourney.

UNC, on the other hand, was the last place ACC team, with a 6-14 conference record and sub-.500 overall record.

apples to oranges.

But who knows, maybe “people” had UNC winning the NCAAs last year in addition to the ACCT, prior to the COVID stoppage?

 

[two3zone]

Exactly, which makes it even more baffling when a guy like Etan that actually played for him doesn't get it by now.

You’re in danger of being in the CuseRunner/Hulk territory.

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

You’re in danger of being in the CuseRunner/Hulk territory.

Do you honestly believe that Etan knows what is happening behind the scenes? IMO, Etan was reacting like a fan and not like someone informed. I'm not a blind JAB apologist. I almost threw my remote through the screen at the end of the WVU game when it took so long to get Kadary back in the game. I couldn't understand it but I will give the Head Coach that is actually coaching the team the benefit of the doubt. There must be a logical explanation as to why. In fact, I don't seem to recall anybody in the post game presser ask why. Maybe they did and I missed it.

 

[CuseCPT]

Do you honestly believe that Etan knows what is happening behind the scenes? IMO, Etan was reacting like a fan and not like someone informed. I'm not a blind JAB apologist. I almost threw my remote through the screen at the end of the WVU game when it took so long to get Kadary back in the game. I couldn't understand it but I will give the Head Coach that is actually coaching the team the benefit of the doubt. There must be a logical explanation as to why. In fact, I don't seem to recall anybody in the post game presser ask why. Maybe they did and I missed it.

I'd hazard to guess national media don't know our players well enough to pick up on that and the local media know better from past experience.

 

[Ceerqqq]

There's a lot of content in this thread, so I'm not going to read this all. But to the OP, I don't think that there's a logical fallacy at all.

High major college athletics is a performance based profession. Earlier in the year, the team's performance was subpar, and our rotation exacerbated some of the team's on-paper issues.

Toward the end of the season [after the embarrassing UVa / Duke blowouts], the team began playing better, and JB expanded the rotation. And the results got a lot better.

It's fine to criticize through the lens of hindsight, but it doesn't mean posters who were clamoring for some of the things that eventually came to be were wrong.

In my mind, a couple of things happened:

• Buddy morphed into a true go-to guy, and got en fuego
• Our rotation expanded to a legit 8-player rotation
• Edwards gave us not just 5 extra fouls, but improved interior defense / shot blocking / rebounding
• Braswell [who played a lot throughout the season] suddenly became a consistent ~10ppg scorer
• JB put JGIII on a shorter leash if he wasn't producing [and played him more / in conjunction with Kadary when he was]

That all of those things occurred essentially simultaneously the last 1/4 of the season is a BIG reason why the team got a lot more competitive, got better defensively, and became much more formidable.

Again, not seeing the logical fallacy.

JB might not be on the Mt. Rushmore of college coaches, but he's in the top next tier, IMO. He's an all time great. My opinion only, but I don't believe that can be disputed. But despite all that, the team wasn't performing -- and it began to perform like a top 15-ish [or better] team once the HOF coach made late season adjustments that ran counter to what he was doing for the first 3/4 of the season.

Okay, let me take another go at it...

It's the causal fallacy, specifically a correlational fallacy.

The implicit claim Boeheim's rotation critics were advancing a month+ ago was that poor team performance early-mid season occurred because the coach did not play his reserves when members of the First Team were struggling in one way or another. A secondary, related argument was that playing those reserves earlier in the year--at any excuse, actually--was going to enhance overall team development more than failing to do so, cuz reserves are so important (and they are).

That's an opinion.

While I disagree with that POV, it's the follow up argument Boeheim's critics have been advancing lately that I'm declaring fallacious: that because the reserves are playing more now and the team is playing superbly--in part because the reserves have been making important contributions--their earlier claims that the reserves should be playing more then have been vindicated.

That conclusion is not justified by the known facts. I say that because it can be shown that Boeheim not playing his reserves more earlier--the actual facts of history we are assessing--has resulted in the superb team play we've witnessed lately.

His critics counter that the reason they've been playing better is because the reserves have been playing more recently and demonstrating that they can contribute. But that coincidence/correlation does not prove that their criticism of Boeheim's earlier decisions to not play the bench more was justified.

The fact is, both outcomes (more bench, better team performance) could have been directly attributable to Boeheim not playing the bench more earlier.

I thought I explained why pretty well in the OP, but I'll give it another go...

___________________________________________

It should be abundantly obvious that Boeheim's #1 concern every season is being able to put five players on the court who--as a team--can beat the best five of those teams he'll face in the NCAAT. Those five will get all the PT that he believes they need to be able to become such a team at the end of the year.

Of course Boeheim & every other coach knows that they need key reserves that they'll turn to when someone's in foul trouble or being dominated at their position. Most years he can go 7 deep, other years 8 deep like this year, other years only 6. He wants to develop those 6-8 players optimally, but not at the expense of the starting five if they are making too many mistakes.

That's the problem. Sure, Boeheim knows that his 6-12 players would all benefit with some generous PT, but he'd have to be a coaching fool to sacrifice the performance/development of his starting five by doling out their PT to bench players because it would be good for the bench players if he did so.

So that's the big consideration. The inescapable trade-off. It's the reason why Boeheim--especially early in the season--is ALWAYS going to keep his starters in the game if the outcome is at all in doubt, if he believes they need it to improve as a unit, cuz he's thinking end-of-season performance.

That's why all coaches make their best guess at which 5-7 players have the ability to develop as a team over the course of a season to where they are hopefully 'unstoppable.' He wants them to get all the time, the repetitions, they need working together to where their team play is on an instinctive level (see Loyola Chicago) by the end of the season.

And yes, the 6-8 players also need some time playing with the starters if they've going to be at all helpful and not a detriment. So their PT is important too, but only if your starting five's development allows it.

This is why Boeheim had a good reason for not playing his reserves when his starting five was struggling to win games. They clearly had a lot to learn as a unit, and that means sufficient PT to get there.

At the same time that his reserves were not playing during this 'difficult time' for the team, they were nevertheless improving throughout the season during practice. That's the development that Boeheim was looking for from his reserves over the course of the season, that gained from practice.

From previous seasons, he's seen his less-experienced players learn a lot over the course of a season and most especially toward the end of the season. That is when he was expecting that they might be 'ready' to contribute without making serious in-game errors and without having handicapped the development of the starting five when they needed most of the PT to get better as a unit.

So why is it that the reserves are playing more now and making contributions to the team's success?

Quite plausibly, it is because the starting five have developed well enough (cuz they got the PT they needed earlier) for the reserves to be more effectively blended into the mix and because the reserves have improved enough in practice to where they are now ready to contribute.



So there's a reason why Boeheim's rotation critics are wrong in their belief that they possess a keen insight into coaching that has escaped JB. Playing a deeper bench earlier in the season at the expense of the starting five could very well have held back the development of the starting five, making the current run an impossibility.

Developing the bench in practice at the same time that the starters are ironing out all the mistakes that had been holding them back in actual games was clearly the reason why Boeheim wasn't playing the bench more earlier and it would account for the eventual outcome we've seen: superb team play and greater contributions from the bench (with fewer mistakes than they would have committed in games earlier, cuz they understand better how to execute Boeheim's Plan on both defense & offense.)

So yeah, when Boeheim said his players were not "ready" earlier, he was not saying that he didn't foresee them ever being ready down the road, which is what his critics seemed to just assume when they were getting themselves all worked up about the way JB was developing his team.

I hope that helps...