The Logical Fallacy Some Fans Have Embraced To Justify Their Criticism Of Boeheim

[CuseFaninVT]

JB is the luckiest man alive, I tell ya. Lucky his son got sick. Lucky Dolezaj got in foul trouble. Lucky Juli said yes. When the book is written on James Arthur Boeheim, it will be nothing more than an additional definition of luck in the dictionary.

 

[OrangeDW]

Some of you guys just want some attention this week or what? Every day we’ve got a new drama thread started. We’re in the friggin sweet 16, who cares about any of this right now?

 

[orlandoorange]

You all are funny. I don't read the b'ball side often, for gawd sakes the guy has 1045 wins. He likely has a clue about what he's doing.

 

[TheCusian]

So I’m supposed to be impressed that some message board posters were “right” once sorta while the HOFer just did what he seems to do most years?

guys not infallible but c’mon

 

[cuseinseattle]

Ceerqqq my friend, you are like a rapper in a strip club right now making it rain, except the dollar bills are logical fallacies.

Post of the year candidate.

 

[Ceerqqq]

No body knows for sure, including JB. But IMO this is really pretty simple. Lets look at the game logs for Jesse Edwards...

View attachment 198695

Jesse did not play more than 6 minutes in any of the first 10 games, other than the Miami game in a huge blowout.

His first game with more than 6 minutes (other than Miami game) was against Georgia Tech, with 23 minutes.

He then played double digit minutes in 4 of the last 7 games of the season.

So back to this Georgia Tech game where Jesse's minutes changed drastically... Was THAT the exact time that JB decided that Jesse was "ready?" Or was it because of the 5 fouls Marek accumulated and JB was forced to play Jesse?

Pretty obvious answer here.

No, it's not obvious at all. Both of the competing interpretations hold up giving the facts re: Jesse's PT. Those who want to believe JB was committing coaching malpractice will "obviously" assume that such was the case.

Having said that, I do allow for the possibility that JB still had his doubts about Jesse "being ready" when he used him vs GT (cuz he had no choice), and decided afterwards that--in spite of the various flaws he still saw in his game--he might now be ready to help the team down the stretch. (Cuz game players vs practice players...see his early season Woody comments)

BUT in no way does that possibility invalidate Jim's approach/rotation choices prior to that. It is a tremendous leap of faith--an uninformed one at that--to simply assume that playing Jesse a week or two earlier would have helped the team to develop, given all the obvious (to JB) mistakes that the first 6 players needed to learn to correct with the available PT.

Jim is always more concerned about his first 5-6 players getting the PT they need to get better over the course of a season than the theoretical possibility that a sub's eventual development might be impaired a bit in the short run. That what he's seeing/evaluating that many fans at home just don't get.

JB's Team Development Creed: ALWAYS put the development of your best 6 players ahead of all other considerations if you want to have a competitive team at the end of the season. It's crucial that they get all the PT they need throughout the season if you want to end up with a team at the end of the season that has any kind of chance of pulling off the kind of victories we've seen this past week.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

So I’m supposed to be impressed that some message board posters were “right” once sorta while the HOFer just did what he seems to do most years?

guys not infallible but c’mon

Most years? Like that 5 and 5 end to last year? Cripes

 

[Day2]

Most years? Like that 5 and 5 end to last year? Cripes

Or 4-2 (including a beatdown of everyone’s darling to win the ACC tournament) before the season was cut short.

 

[Ceerqqq]

7 years is a trend. Syracuse looking like 1989 East Tennessee State, getting dunked on over and over again against Georgia Tech. Yeah. It looked abysmal. Is there any wonder that frustration peaked on that day?

Frankly, the turnaround is all the more shocking considering what preceded it.

I still contend that there ought to be a short list in the ADs “Rolodex,” once the succession plan needs to be enacted. It’s not like the question is “if” it will have to be enacted.

This 6-game run from Georgia Tech to the Sweet 16 will calm the masses, but it doesn’t change the fact that results matter. And the regular season results have been consistently sub-par for this program for some time.

Fortunately, the flip side is just as true. We’re two win from the Final Four. Hoping for a similar year end result next year, but as a protected seed for a welcome, and dare I say, expected, change.

If I may, you don't seem to appreciate how college basketball has changed, and is still changing today.

With major programs not able to stockpile the best available talent for 4 years cuz 1-2 & done, every season is a major development challenge. How do you get a group of several players to perform well enough together by the end of the season so that they'll have a chance to get to the Sweet 16?

This happens to be one of JB greatest strengths, born out by his post-season over the past several years in spite of the fact that he's been relying on Second Tier Talent.

My suggestion to his detractors: recognize and appreciate this exceptional coaching talent he displays every year and try to resist the urge to direct mocking derision at him. Just an idea...

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Or 4-2 (including a beatdown of everyone’s darling to win the ACC tournament) before the season was cut short.

We beat an unranked Carolina team, which was awesome, and we were darlings to beat a Louisville team that had smoked us by 24 in the one game prior to your cut off? Interesting


Whoops. Read your post wrong. Be right back.

Wait. Are you saying Carolina was everyone’s darling to win the ACC tourney?

 

[Dave]

A month or so ago, those fans who've always felt somehow superior to Jim Boeheim stirred each other into a fevered chorus of criticism of Boeheim over the struggles this year's team was having early on. To them, Boeheim's retirement could not come soon enough. They felt the problem was obvious: Jim Boeheim couldn't see the potential in Kadary Richmond, Jesse Edwards, and Robert Braswell. He was making a serious coaching mistake by not giving his best players the lion's share of the available PT (as they saw it from their living rooms).

Now that the season has turned around, these same critics are now proclaiming that because the increased effective participation of these key reserves in recent weeks has coincided with the impressive string of victories the team has pulled off, is definitive proof that they were right and Boeheim was wrong a month ago when they were clamoring for KR, JE, and RB to be playing more.

It's a logical fallacy.

It presumes that Boeheim was not aware of the contributions that those three players could make by the end of the season, but there is zero evidence that this is true. Indeed, Boeheim was the first to identify their potential, long before any fans were aware, but he was also aware of the mistakes they were making in practice, the kind that could cause his team to lose games with unforced turnovers and/or missed opportunities.

At no time did Boeheim say anything to suggest that he didn't believe these guys would eventually be able to help the team later in the season. He only said that he didn't think they were ready to play more...yet. So THE difference of opinion between Jim Boeheim and his harshest fan critics was only ever over when these players should be getting more minutes in games. Now...or later? The fans said now, Boeheim said later.

Boeheim said later for a reason. He's been coaching teams for decades, has seen them develop over the course of a season, correcting their mistakes, getting the newer players to a level of familiarity with The Plan to where they can come into games without putting victories in jeopardy with their errors. This is why--especially early in the season--Boeheim will ALWAYS go with more experienced players if/whenever a game is in doubt.

Let the record show that Boeheim did not play them more earlier as the fans said he should. He played them later. And we now know the outcome of Boeheim ignoring the advice of fans and stubbornly coaching his team his way. He did start to give these player more PT when he felt they might be ready to contribute, and not before. That his team has turned out to be a smashing success is a supreme tribute to Jim Boeheim's coaching genius, his ability to develop a team over the course of a season into a competitive tornado.

To those fans who are now trying to take credit for the team's current success, I say feel free to embrace whatever delusional rationalizations you wish, but understand that the coincidence of the team winning big end-of-season games and the greater participation of key reserves does NOT prove your case that they should have played more earlier.

Since Boeheim did not play them earlier, it is not logically possible to infer that doing so would have achieved anything. That experiment was not tried so it's not possible to declare it a success. But Boeheim's approach was tried and the results have been spectacular. He's made his case, but you're left with an unproven theory that is extraordinarily weak and unpersuasive, IMO.

Thank you for eloquently capturing my feelings and the feelings of many. The immeasurable benefit of players working to prove themselves and earn the right to be on the court, should be mentioned as well.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I for one look forward to more posts tagged "boeheim's critics."

 

[orangecuse]

Or 4-2 (including a beatdown of everyone’s darling to win the ACC tournament) before the season was cut short.

Are you referring to the UNC team last year that went 6-14 in conference and 14-19 overall? That "beat down of everyone's darling."

 

[Day2]

We beat an unranked Carolina team, which was awesome, and we were darlings to beat a Louisville team that had smoked us by 24 in the one game prior to your cut off? Interesting


Whoops. Read your post wrong. Be right back.

Wait. Are you saying Carolina was everyone’s darling to win the ACC tourney?

Yes. Are you saying that wasn’t the narrative heading into the tournament?

 

[Dave]

You're pointing at a correlation and then assuming that it implies causation that fits your preconceived notion that Boeheim doesn't know how to wisely judge the risks/rewards of playing inexperience players when the game is in doubt. The only problem is that the same correlation also works for Boeheim & his approach, as well. That you guys feel it is so >obvious< that JB's an idiot coach is beyond amazing to me.

I think it fits into the concept of group-narcissism.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t that exactly what you are doing? The original post is supported by the fact that JAB is a Hall of Fane coach and you are...the equivalent of the guy at the barstool. It only takes one to be a narcissist.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Yes. Are you saying that wasn’t the narrative heading into the tournament?

I don’t recall that at all, but I think there may have been something going on during that same timeframe.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

If I may, you don't seem to appreciate how college basketball has changed, and is still changing today.

With major programs not able to stockpile the best available talent for 4 years cuz 1-2 & done, every season is a major development challenge. How do you get a group of several players to perform well enough together by the end of the season so that they'll have a chance to get to the Sweet 16?

This happens to be one of JB greatest strengths, born out by his post-season over the past several years in spite of the fact that he's been relying on Second Tier Talent.

My suggestion to his detractors: recognize and appreciate this exceptional coaching talent he displays every year and try to resist the urge to direct mocking derision at him. Just an idea...

We can still direct mocking derision to your completely subjective love of everything he does though, right?

 

[Day2]

Are you referring to the UNC team last year that went 6-14 in conference and 14-19 overall? That "beat down of everyone's darling."

How soon we (pretend to) forget.

This was only a year ago, folks. Cole Anthony was back, they were gonna go on a roll like Georgia back in the day... I refuse to believe you don’t remember this.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

How soon we (pretend to) forget.

This was only a year ago, folks. Cole Anthony was back, they were gonna go on a roll like Georgia back in the day... I refuse to believe you don’t remember this.

That’s just the story we all told ourselves to make that last game feel even better as we faced the abyss.

 

[orangecuse]

How soon we (pretend to) forget.

This was only a year ago, folks. Cole Anthony was back, they were gonna go on a roll like Georgia back in the day... I refuse to believe you don’t remember this.

Honestly, I don't remember that at all. Refuse to believe all you want...you are the owner of your own thinking.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

How soon we (pretend to) forget.

This was only a year ago, folks. Cole Anthony was back, they were gonna go on a roll like Georgia back in the day... I refuse to believe you don’t remember this.

Seriously though, they hadn’t beaten a ranked team in over a month. There was no believing they were the darlings to actually win.

 

[dasher]

Or 4-2 (including a beatdown of everyone’s darling to win the ACC tournament) before the season was cut short.

UNC was everyone's darling to win the ACC? Didn't they have a losing record?

 

[two3zone]

so by this logic, Griffin should not be taken out either, right? Because he’s shown in games he can score and play well, so we have to make sure he has confidence. I’m just trying to figure out the logic that works with some players and not with others.

There is no logic to it.

 

[CousCuse]

How soon we (pretend to) forget.

This was only a year ago, folks. Cole Anthony was back, they were gonna go on a roll like Georgia back in the day... I refuse to believe you don’t remember this.

I was feeling very strongly that last years team was special and would win 2 more in the ACCT and make a run in the NCAAT.

 

[Day2]

I don’t recall that at all, but I think there may have been something going on during that same timeframe.

If you say so...

We can look at the five losses if you want:

Lost to NC State by 5 (Keatts has been low-key solid against us since getting that job)
Lost at #8 FSU by 3
Beatdown at #11 Louisville
Beatdown at home against UNC (the same UNC we would return the favor against two weeks later)
OT loss at Miami

While we had a lot of work to do, we were still playing better. The difference between the two UNC games alone proved that.