The Program is in free fall

Cusefan0307

A very millennial millennial
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Messages
22,511
Like
43,209
Baye's a tricky one. That's back when defense over offense was more a reasonable difference of opinion (at worst) rather than the obvious death knell for the program that it looks like today. So in 2014 that made sense. Though I think he got hurt in a Sunday night game early in league play (Clemson? I dunno, some snowy night when they played badly against a bad team) and probably should've gotten Wally Pipped after that.

I'm in a bit of a 2013 minority, I do think we were limited and might have gotten the most out of the year, but I tend to think a scoring big man could have taken a lot of pressure off Triche (hurt) and Carter-Williams (a mess at times). Maybe my memories are getting jumbled, but this was the aircraft carrier season, right? That game should've been a template for the year. We couldn't shoot, because of the breeze, so we focused on getting the ball to the block. Rakeem and C.J. scored at will and even Coleman got in on the action, IIRC.
Just looked it up. Rak had 3 points in 25 minutes. DC 2.

CJ/Triche/MCW combined for 49 points that game. Syracuse vs. San Diego State Box Score, November 11, 2012 | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

That team finished top 10 in Kenpom, 2nd in the BE, won 30 games, and went to the FF. That team was anything, but limited. It lost a few games at the end of the season probably because JB ran Triche and MCW into the ground as we had a limited 3rd guard in Cooney.

In fact by SRS on collegebasketballreference.com it is our 3rd best team going back to 1989 and our 4th best since Kenpom was introduced in 2000.
 

OttoMets

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
15,579
Like
21,384
Just looked it up. Rak had 3 points in 25 minutes. DC 2.

CJ/Triche/MCW combined for 49 points that game. Syracuse vs. San Diego State Box Score, November 11, 2012 | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

That team finished top 10 in Kenpom, 2nd in the BE, won 30 games, and went to the FF. That team was anything, but limited. It lost a few games at the end of the season probably because JB ran Triche and MCW into the ground as we had a limited 3rd guard in Cooney.

In fact by SRS on collegebasketballreference.com it is our 3rd best team going back to 1989 and our 4th best since Kenpom was introduced in 2000.
Wow.

Funny how memories work (or don't).

Though I still stand by my Christmas conclusions, obviously.

Anyway, I think having only three guards, all of whom are limited in some way (Triche, hurt; Carter-Williams, careless; Cooney, Cooney) makes the team limited. It showed, SRS aside. Ten losses -- including one out of conference -- was a lot at that time. This was a dramatic departure from the previous three seasons.
 

AZOrange

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,340
Like
16,756
I think he was always a player - I remember he had like an 8 point, 11 rebound game in the tourney his freshman year after Fab got suspended.

At the same time, he steadily got better too. He didn’t get a ton of chances because we had a lot of guys and other good players at his position, but he was efficient and effective as a soph and especially as a junior. Senior year he was even better...and he was all we really had, especially once McCullough went down.
We used to have 5 stars coming off the bench behind 5 stars...this whole post proves the point
 

rrlbees

2017 ESPN Tourney Challenge Winner
Staff member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
64,920
Like
80,512
Yeah Bees sick retort. Totally turned around my way of thinking with that one liner. You have owned me sir.
there’s nothing to turn around. It’s pretty simple, you don’t know. Fact.
 

Cusefan0307

A very millennial millennial
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Messages
22,511
Like
43,209
Wow.

Funny how memories work (or don't).

Though I still stand by my Christmas conclusions, obviously.

Anyway, I think having only three guards, all of whom are limited in some way (Triche, hurt; Carter-Williams, careless; Cooney, Cooney) makes the team limited. It showed, SRS aside. Ten losses -- including one out of conference -- was a lot at that time. This was a dramatic departure from the previous three seasons.
It would have been favored over and was definitely better than the 2011/2009 teams, and small underdogs to the 2010/2012 teams. We made it to the FF averaging about 20 points per win. We were top 10 most of that season. The Big East was ridiculous that year. 6 of our losses were to teams in the top 25. I think people forget how good that conference was back then. We played 14 teams ranked in the top 25 that season.
 

OttoMets

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
15,579
Like
21,384
It would have been favored over and was definitely better than the 2011/2009 teams, and small underdogs to the 2010/2012 teams. We made it to the FF averaging about 20 points per win. We were top 10 most of that season. The Big East was ridiculous that year. 6 of our losses were to teams in the top 25. I think people forget how good that conference was back then. We played 14 teams ranked in the top 25 that season.
We'll never know; I tend to think 2009 would be the most compelling matchup: a very well-rounded team with no defensive inclination (they gave up ~100 to Providence!) against an inconsistent team known for strong defense. Both played in a top-heavy Big East with arguably the best team in the country.

But for every Louisville and Georgetown, in my memory 2013 struggled against a Temple or Nova (the one that really sticks in my craw...an epic Carter-Williams late game meltdown). This is what separated them from the previous three (and got me concerned that Boeheim's post-Flynn culture of winning might suffer from the high rate of turnover). In 2010, 2011, and 2012, they pretty much beat all the teams they should. Swept the non-conference, handled the dregs in the league. In 2013, they were younger and couldn't sustain excellence in the same way, despite some obvious high points.

It was a good team. Southerland's suspension really seemed to be a nail in the coffin -- he was playing well and seemed to be in a rhythm -- but then he caught fire in New York after the Georgetown debacle and they played possessed for three weeks. Momentum is a funny thing. After the 39-point Georgetown game, I don't think anyone would have compared them favorably to the previous four SU teams.
 

rrlbees

2017 ESPN Tourney Challenge Winner
Staff member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
64,920
Like
80,512
Floors yours dude. Educate me instead of being weird and cryptic. But I hope you have something better than "a coach told me."
sorry, that’s all I got. Used to be a coach as a source was as good as it gets. Now it appears message board conspiracies rule the day.
 

ssbriefcase

All American
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
4,640
Like
5,753
Confirmation bias, maybe? Another rationale behind that perception is that Christmas had been told not to look for his shot and that's why he kicked it out.

This would jibe with everything we saw Boeheim say publicly.

(Though, to be fair, Boeheim sez things.)
I mean, I could ask you the same thing on confirmation bias? I saw what I saw, and apparently you guys did too. I mean either there was a grand conspiracy, or our coaching staff as a whole are dumb as bricks, because if we had a guy waiting to just get the ball to win more games I’d absolutely call any coaching staff dumb. I don’t believe that to be the case obviously
 

Cusefan0307

A very millennial millennial
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Messages
22,511
Like
43,209
We'll never know; I tend to think 2009 would be the most compelling matchup: a very well-rounded team with no defensive inclination (they gave up ~100 to Providence!) against an inconsistent team known for strong defense. Both played in a top-heavy Big East with arguably the best team in the country.

But for every Louisville and Georgetown, in my memory 2013 struggled against a Temple or Nova (the one that really sticks in my craw...an epic Carter-Williams late game meltdown). This is what separated them from the previous three (and got me concerned that Boeheim's post-Flynn culture of winning might suffer from the high rate of turnover). In 2010, 2011, and 2012, they pretty much beat all the teams they should. Swept the non-conference, handled the dregs in the league. In 2013, they were younger and couldn't sustain excellence in the same way, despite some obvious high points.

It was a good team. Southerland's suspension really seemed to be a nail in the coffin -- he was playing well and seemed to be in a rhythm -- but then he caught fire in New York after the Georgetown debacle and they played possessed for three weeks. Momentum is a funny thing. After the 39-point Georgetown game, I don't think anyone would have compared them favorably to the previous four SU teams.
I think you're vastly underrating 2013. The 2011 team is largely forgotten because we flamed out early in the BET and NCAA tourney. That was the team that played so bad in the middle of the year that people thought Scoop was shaving points when we were blown out at home to Seton Hall in the middle of a 4 game losing streak. At least Georgetown was good when we lost. Seton hall went 13-18 in 2011.

Pretty much by every analytical measure they would be underdogs to 2013. We also won at Louisville without Southerland when they were number 1 and beat top 25 teams in Notre Dame and Cincy that year. It drives me nuts that people act like that was a miracle FF. We didn't have a close game the entire tournament.
 

Alsacs

I know that I know nothing. Too bad though
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
43,904
Like
50,169
2014 Pitt game at the Dome Rak was a stud when he got the ball. Problem wasn’t he wasn’t fed the ball enough and we relied on Tyler Ennis magic to win the game.
Rak was good as a Junior. He just didn’t get fed the ball enough and he wasn’t vocal about demanding the ball.

It’s not hard to just say our coaching staff has not stressed post feeding well and outside of Rak’s 2015 season we have players like Rick Jackson, Arinze Onuaku who could do it but it’s not been featured since Hakim Warrick.

Our coaching staff doesn’t think post offense matters. It’s just make shots.
 

Alsacs

I know that I know nothing. Too bad though
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
43,904
Like
50,169
I think you're vastly underrating 2013. The 2011 team is largely forgotten because we flamed out early in the BET and NCAA tourney. That was the team that played so bad in the middle of the year that people thought Scoop was shaving points when we were blown out at home to Seton Hall in the middle of a 4 game losing streak. At least Georgetown was good when we lost. Seton hall went 13-18 in 2011.

Pretty much by every analytical measure they would be underdogs to 2013. We also won at Louisville without Southerland when they were number 1 and beat top 25 teams in Notre Dame and Cincy that year. It drives me nuts that people act like that was a miracle FF. We didn't have a close game the entire tournament.
2013 had the best zone defense in the history of Syracuse basketball.
Playing MCW and Triche high 30 MPG actually makes sense.
Fair and Southerland were perfect wings for the offense we end up running.
Rak/BMK great combo for the middle.

If our staff actually ran an offensive system that team should have won the NC with the level of defense it played.
The offensive sets were terrible and basically throw the ball to Fair let him make a tough shot or Triche/MCW go ISO and make a play, or Southerland make transition 3’s because MCW could push the ball off misses as he rebounded.
 

OttoMets

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
15,579
Like
21,384
I think you're vastly underrating 2013. The 2011 team is largely forgotten because we flamed out early in the BET and NCAA tourney. That was the team that played so bad in the middle of the year that people thought Scoop was shaving points when we were blown out at home to Seton Hall in the middle of a 4 game losing streak. At least Georgetown was good when we lost. Seton hall went 13-18 in 2011.

Pretty much by every analytical measure they would be underdogs to 2013. We also won at Louisville without Southerland when they were number 1 and beat top 25 teams in Notre Dame and Cincy that year. It drives me nuts that people act like that was a miracle FF. We didn't have a close game the entire tournament.
In addition to my bias (I like offense) and my subjective perception, I like the old-fashioned stats. Winning percentage (.771 > .750), field goal percentage (.472 > .439), etc.

Seton Hall was ridiculous, no argument here, but from a qualitative perspective I don't know that it says more about the team, in the context of a losing streak, than 2013's more frequent losses. You're right about 2011 being a forgotten team, but they had a couple big wins and, aside from the Jeremy Hazell debacle, lost to only strong NCAA teams (I think that losing streak started with a Pitt/Nova Monday-Saturday turnaround at the start of the semester when all three of us were in the top ten and SU was undefeated).

I won't die on the "2011 > 2013" hill, I don't feel that strongly about it, but it's my general impression. They were a good team that hit a January swoon and crapped out early in the tournament (like kind of a lot of SU teams). 2013 had more losses peppered throughout the year but won 4 in a row at exactly the right time (like very few SU teams).
 

Alsacs

I know that I know nothing. Too bad though
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
43,904
Like
50,169
In addition to my bias (I like offense) and my subjective perception, I like the old-fashioned stats. Winning percentage (.771 > .750), field goal percentage (.472 > .439), etc.

Seton Hall was ridiculous, no argument here, but from a qualitative perspective I don't know that it says more about the team, in the context of a losing streak, than 2013's more frequent losses. You're right about 2011 being a forgotten team, but they had a couple big wins and, aside from the Jeremy Hazell debacle, lost to only strong NCAA teams (I think that losing streak started with a Pitt/Nova Monday-Saturday turnaround at the start of the semester when all three of us were in the top ten and SU was undefeated).

I won't die on the "2011 > 2013" hill, I don't feel that strongly about it, but it's my general impression. They were a good team that hit a January swoon and crapped out early in the tournament (like kind of a lot of SU teams). 2013 had more losses peppered throughout the year but won 4 in a row at exactly the right time (like very few SU teams).
2013 had the best defense and enough talent on offense to win a NC.
2011 had Senior Rick Jackson who was a force on the glass and when we fed him the ball. Rick Jackson dominated a physical Michigan State team that year in the Jimmy V at MSG. Not many people do that to a Michigan State team out physical them.
2011 had problems because Triche and Waiters didn’t like each other and Scoop was in the middle. Freshman Waiters was a little churpy and didn’t get along with Triche and was mouthy to the coaching staff.
That caused tension.
I thought the 2011 team got screwed in the selection process they should have been a 2 seed but got bumped down to 3 seed for a bad loss to UConn in the BET and for some reason got paired with Marquette who beat them in the regular season in Milwaukee as part of that 4 game losing streak.
That Marquette team had Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder on it. They shouldn’t have been an 11 seed it was bad luck.
If the Big East wasn’t dominant that year we get a better draw and that team should have been a sweet 16 or elite 8 team. We lost a tight game to that very NBA talented Marquette team where the officials screwed us on a last second call and the NCAA publicly apologized for it. Such a joke.

I believe 2013 would beat 2011 because of the defense but watching Brandon Triche on both teams would be a Lost time warp thing.
2011 had better offense because of Jackson.
 

kirbivore

2018 Cali Winner: Tackles for a Loss
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
8,472
Like
7,242
I thought the 2011 team got screwed in the selection process they should have been a 2 seed but got bumped down to 3 seed for a bad loss to UConn in the BET and for some reason got paired with Marquette who beat them in the regular season in Milwaukee as part of that 4 game losing streak.
That Marquette team had Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder on it. They shouldn’t have been an 11 seed it was bad luck.
If the Big East wasn’t dominant that year we get a better draw and that team should have been a sweet 16 or elite 8 team. We lost a tight game to that very NBA talented Marquette team where the officials screwed us on a last second call and the NCAA publicly apologized for it. Such a joke.
In 2011 the committee was too damn lazy to move a couple teams around so the earliest all Big East matchup would have been sweet 16.
 

Sherman20

2018 Iggy Leading Scorer Winner
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,753
Like
3,184
I'll object all day during the 25-0. We struggled scoring against St Francis at home. That was fools gold and many knew it. We needed points all season and Rak barely got the ball.
You and I have already disagreed about 2013-14 and your ludicrous fools gold comment. So there’s no point debating it again. That team was very, very good. Even if we weren’t the best team in the country, they were still a Top 10 quality team. You should ask your beloved Hop what he thinks. I think he’d tell you you’re out to lunch to trash that team.
 

two3zone

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
13,585
Like
18,279
You and I have already disagreed about 2013-14 and your ludicrous fools gold comment. So there’s no point debating it again. That team was very, very good. Even if we weren’t the best team in the country, they were still a Top 10 quality team. You should ask your beloved Hop what he thinks. I think he’d tell you you’re out to lunch to trash that team.
My beloved Hop lol

We had the mighty St Francis put us on the ropes and I'm guessing that was within the first 5-8 games and that's when I among others here knew we were in trouble.

Do top 10 teams score outside the paint one time against Dayton in the tournament? I don't think so.
 

oTTo113445

Walk On
Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
77
Like
46
My two cents, we won't find Peace getting rid of JB. Its just like the football team with its 3-4 year stunts. Thankfully JB has a few more good years in him.
 
Last edited:

syrBossHogg

Starter
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
1,594
Like
2,955
The inability to find a true high talent PG since Ennis left is the biggest reason for our decline IMO. It's not the only reason we've fallen off but it's the most important. I think Girard will be a good college PG but he should not be playing big starter minutes right now
 

OrangeDW

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
24,973
Like
56,592
The inability to find a true high talent PG since Ennis left is the biggest reason for our decline IMO. It's not the only reason we've fallen off but it's the most important. I think Girard will be a good college PG but he should not be playing big starter minutes right now
Hughes is our only starting level player. And while he’s very good, he’s probably the 2nd-3rd best player on a good Cuse team.

On a good Cuse team: Boeheim and Dolezaj are 7th men. Girard is the 10th man who fans want to see more of because you can tell he will be very good, but he’s just caught behind better guys. And Sidibe is a backup.
 

CousCuse

Coach Mac Foreva
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
6,644
Like
4,335
Well they didn't throw it to him for 3 years, snarky sarcasm doesn't change that.
The coaching staff studies players and tape and has meetings all day long about the game plan going forward. What do you think they do. The get paid a lot of money and put all their abilities into it. You make if sound like our coaches are idiots who have no clue.
 

syrBossHogg

Starter
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
1,594
Like
2,955
Hughes is our only starting level player. And while he’s very good, he’s probably the 2nd-3rd best player on a good Cuse team.

On a good Cuse team: Boeheim and Dolezaj are 7th men. Girard is the 10th man who fans want to see more of because you can tell he will be very good, but he’s just caught behind better guys. And Sidibe is a backup.
Yep, Hughes to me is James Southerland with a better handle. Southerland was a good scorer but can you imagine if Sutherland was our best player on those 2012/2013 teams
 
Last edited:

Online statistics

Members online
227
Guests online
637
Total visitors
864

Top Bottom