The question is going to be asked at some point…

[Alsacs]

We aren't making the NCAAs this year so it really should be an 8 year comparison not 7. Clearly Coach A is the best, and Coach B is the worst. C vs D depends on that 8th season.

A- Roy
C- JB
Calhoun, Gary Williams, Olson i think are the other two. Can’t figure out which js which.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

A- Roy
C- JB
Calhoun, Gary Williams, Olson i think are the other two. Can’t figure out which js which.

Definitely not Calhoun he won a title. Lute Olson had a lot more success than any of those. Gary Williams might be B.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Below:

Spoiler: Identification behind the spoiler tag

Coach A: Thad Matta retired due to health/ineffectiveness and recruiting because he couldn't travel as much. He's still only 54, I thought he was much older.
Coach B: John Thompson II - Fired, hasn't coached since.
Coach C: Our very own James Arthur Boeheim. I chose 7 years to get his last F4 in there
Coach D: Tom Crean at Indiana - Fired, but then hired at UGA where he hasn't exactly been crushing it

 

[MDCuse]

If the university put into place an AD that was impotent against offramping JB, that’s a huge error on their part.

Wildhack is not in an impossible position, he’s in a tough position. Two very different things. This is his job. It’s why they pay him enough that he doesn’t need to bartend on the weekends to make ends meet.

Step up, do your job and get it done.

THIS!! JW is paid to make those decisions. JB is not. You can respect JB and what he's done, but someone needs to be the adult in the room and we've seen JB long enough to know it won't be him.

 

[kcsu]

I dont have any inside info only my opinion which is i dont think Jim is leaving after this season regardless of his kids situation.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Below:

Spoiler: Identification behind the spoiler tag

Coach A: Thad Matta retired due to health/ineffectiveness and recruiting because he couldn't travel as much. He's still only 54, I thought he was much older.
Coach B: John Thompson II - Fired, hasn't coached since.
Coach C: Our very own James Arthur Boeheim. I chose 7 years to get his last F4 in there
Coach D: Tom Crean at Indiana - Fired, but then hired at UGA where he hasn't exactly been crushing it

If you add the 8th year then

Coach A gets another S16.
Coach B gets another NCAAT.
Coach D gets a losing season.

Coach B and D were bums.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Gary Williams:
.626 regular season w%, .535 conference w%, 3 NCAAs, 6 Avg seed

Roy Williams:
.707 regular season w%, .651 conference w%, 6 NCAAs, 2.8 Avg seed, 2 E8, 2F4, NC

I put those together just to get an idea what the last chunks of some decent, not even "legendary", coaches' careers/tenures looked like before they were replaced.

ETA Ol' Roy

 

[RF2044]

I agree with almost all of that.

There is no doubt he’s part of the fabric of the school.

I am not saying JW has to fire him tomorrow.

I am saying that it cannot be allowed that JB has full control over his departure.

JW’s best has to be more than encouragement to leave when it’s time. That’s where we differ.

Maybe JB makes it easy, maybe he doesn’t. Either way, if JB has total control over his exit, that’s a problem. I’m happy to respectfully disagree with you on that point if you disagree with it.

I don’t disagree with the rest of your comment.

Terrific post.

Agree 100% across the board.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Gary Williams:
.626 regular season w%, .535 conference w%, 3 NCAAs, 6 Avg seed

Roy Williams:
.707 regular season w%, .651 conference w%, 6 NCAAs, 2.8 Avg seed, 2 E8, 2F4, NC

I put those together just to get an idea what the last chunks of some decent, not even "legendary", coaches' careers/tenures looked like before they were replaced.

ETA Ol' Roy

IMO the best comparisons would be Gary Williams, Denny Crum, Norm Stewart, John Chaney, Lou Henson, Lute Olsen, Eddie Sutton, Dean Smith, Roy Williams, Jim Calhoun, and Coach K.

I think JB coaches at least 2 more seasons. If we look back at his last 10 season vs these guys it won't be pretty.

 

[Toga]

How many have coached when they are 78 or older?
Am seriously curious.

 

[orangefog]

I never thought I would say this, but I have lost confidence in JB making the right decisions. I don't know if it is his kids playing for him that has blinded him to the deficiencies of this roster or if he truly believes in this new philosophy of playing 5 guys with limited athletic ability but can shoot (supposedly) until they break.

 

[orangecuse]

Yeah. Syverud tried to push him out after probation 7 years ago, told him he needed to set a retirement timeline, but the most he got out of him was 3-years. Hop was made the head coach designate/in waiting. Then JB operated quietly behind the scenes to have the 3 year timeline set aside. Hop got wind of it, understood JB didn’t really want to retire, and he didn’t want to be the guy that pushed his legendary mentor out when he wasn’t ready to go. Plus, Buddy started looking like a possibility to be a D1 player. So Hop jumped at the Washington job when it came his way. …We’d finally had a succession plan in place. I really wish Hop hadn’t been such a good guy in that situation. We’d be long past the JB era now and well into knowing whether Hop would’ve worked out here as a head coach. And JB would still have gotten his fifth Final Four in 2016, a great high note to conclude his career.

I believe you are spot on here. I practically received this same exact description from my brother-in-law who is an executive for a significant SU booster.

 

[Toga]

I'm guessing that stretch where JB was suspended and had to watch games from home did not do us any favors. He hated it. IIRC, Juli hated it. Short of an intervention, he's going to keep going after his boys leave.

 

[721Comstock]

I believe you are spot on here. I practically received this same exact description from my brother-in-law who is an executive for a significant SU booster.

I think the U-Dub job opening up (and with Hop's dad being near there, and in poor health), coupled with his knowing that JB didn't really want to retire (driven home to him by his 9-game suspension), was the perfect storm to lose Hop.

Now - would Hop have struggled here as much as he has in Washington?
Hard to say.

But - while I think that he and the current assistants will all be on "the list" of guys that Wildhack will consider for the job, I truly hope more and more that we purposely make a clean break from any current or former program guys at this point.

We're swirling down the drain... why on earth would we want a continuity hire??!!??!!

All that said - anybody who thinks that JW is gonna force JB out after this season...
(which may or may not be his first losing season EVER)

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I'm guessing that stretch where JB was suspended and had to watch games from home did not do us any favors. He hated it. IIRC, Juli hated it. Short of an intervention, he's going to keep going after his boys leave.

And Hop went 4-5.

So everybody hated it.

 

[Grbac]

At the end of the season I think Wildhack goes to Jim to ask him to step down.

But in a wild turn of events, Jim fires Wildhack and assumes the AD role himself.

Now JB is fully in charge of his employment at the University. Gives himself a 10yr contract and will only retire on the contingency one of his boys takes over as HC after he leaves.

 

[Col. Bleep]

People have joked about the Daily Orange asking Boeheim some tough questions.
But it's no joke.
It may be likely.

No one wants the subject of a interview to go off on them.
A straightforward answer is what you're after.
But if the subject does go off it's great material.
And you're happy to get it.
It's nothing a reporter worries about.

It's my opinion that as a university employee a coach should always be civil to everyone...including reporters and ESPECIALLY students.
But if it doesn't happen it can be a good reporting lesson:
Don't be afraid to ask THE question.
The answer you get may make big headlines.

 

[RF2044]

I never thought I would say this, but I have lost confidence in JB making the right decisions. I don't know if it is his kids playing for him that has blinded him to the deficiencies of this roster or if he truly believes in this new philosophy of playing 5 guys with limited athletic ability but can shoot (supposedly) until they break.

...which is why the decision making process / transition strategy needs to be taken out of JB's hands, unfortunately.

 

[orangefog]

...which is why the decision making process / transition strategy needs to be taken out of JB's hands, unfortunately.

Totally agree. With every loss and peculiar decision and press conference, it makes it easier for JW to justify taking complete control of the hiring process.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Totally agree. With every loss and peculiar decision and press conference, it makes it easier for JW to justify taking complete control of the hiring process.

I'm sorry, I just can't understand this. It's literally in JW's job description to have COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE HIRING PROCESS. How does anything JB does, or doesn't do, justify anything other than whether or not he remains a viable option?

This is going to end terribly.

 

[orangecuse]

I'm sorry, I just can't understand this. It's literally in JW's job description to have COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE HIRING PROCESS. How does anything JB does, or doesn't do, justify anything other than whether or not he remains a viable option?

This is going to end terribly.

Apparently, you are unable to grasp the nuances.

 

[AZOrange]

Maybe, or maybe not. Hard to say definitively, because neither of them has a track record of any kind. The most likely outcome if JW "settles" for an internal hire is that there would be an initial uptick in enthusiasm from the fanbase / improved initial performance, that begins to wind down fairly quickly after a year or two when they have to recruit their own players, and as their limitations as head coaches get exposed.

By the way, I want to state [for the rest of the forum] that it feels really, really odd to be disagreeing with AZOrange on something. I know from years of experience of interacting with him on the forum that he has a tremendous source of intel, and usually has his finger squarely on the pulse of the program.

That we disagree so strongly on this topic [and I'm not sure we actually do in terms of what might be best, just on how things will unfold once JB rides off into the sunset], is very interesting.

I am not sure we fully disagree. I am probably thinking more realistically than anything and using UNC and Duke as a proxy as our decision. I also think the list of “hot candidates” is a bit of a mixed bag. But if the choices were say 1) our bench guys, or 2) a younger 50 ish Pitino, I take the latter all day.

 

[AZOrange]

No there isn't. There are plenty of hills to die on in this debate, but we're gonna fire a guy who's won what he has won, still has post- season success, because we are having a mediocre year? And FWIW the stuff 30 years ago was nonsense, a couple of "I reporters" looking to take down some local businessmen in a down economy.

Firing a guy for being old doesn't happen.

The guy lives 5 minutes from campus, maybe 10. Who in their right minds would leave a good job to come here and deal with that fallout, while the AD is trying to raise 150 million bucks.

Your last point is the structural problem and why I think the next guy HAS to be on our bench now (or in the past)

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm sorry, I just can't understand this. It's literally in JW's job description to have COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE HIRING PROCESS. How does anything JB does, or doesn't do, justify anything other than whether or not he remains a viable option?

This is going to end terribly.

It's weird because in a twisted way we almost want things to get worse quickly so that moving on becomes more realistic.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Why did JB seek an extra year for Jimmy if he wasn’t planning on coming back. Also total silence on this being Buddys last year.

I fully expect JB to be back,and i also expect us to make the tournament next year and if so Jim just might retire.

If we're going to run this roster back we might as well establish some philanthropic component. For every made 3 by an opponent next year, JB donates $1000 toward the charity of the week.