The question is going to be asked at some point…

[Shenexon]

The athletic department of a high major division 1 university is a big business, that brings in about $100 mil a year, and spends almost as much. At Syracuse, Jim Boeheim is, and has been, the most important employee of that business for going on 35 to 40 years. He's an alumnus. He's lived locally for 50+ years. I'd venture to guess he is friends or at least friendly with every major athletic department booster, if not University booster. He's a major cog in the University's relationship with Nike. He probably has a relationship with every prominent, sports loving person, in central NY.

An AD doesnt just fire that person. Unless, all those people that control the purse strings, give their blessing.

At best, Wildhack should be doing what he can to encourage Boeheim that now is as a good a time as any to move on. All of his children will have their college degrees by he end of the year. The sanctions are long gone. His two closest peers in the conference have or are moving on. There's nothing left to win, and we aren't positioned to do any winning in the immediate future anyway. The time to walk away was really five years ago. But now's a pretty good time

Nicely put...

 

[kcsu]

How do we make the tournament with this squad?

I actually think JB will change the distribution of playing time. Plus i think we have 2 possibly 3 kids coming in that will provide help.

 

[orangefog]

I actually think JB will change the distribution of playing time. Plus i think we have 2 possibly 3 kids coming in that will provide help.

I think if we returned everyone and added this class, we could win enough games to make the tournament. Provided JB manages the roster properly. I just don’t believe he would do that.

 

[OttosDad]

It needs to be done sooner rather than later, and we will just have to deal with the results and consequences. The best case scenario for JB is… what? Lets suppose the max he could realistically coach would be another five years. What could happen in those five years to justify the continuing national public perception decline and loss of brand? Another bubble+ year and a surprise Sweet 16?

Anyone seeing that in the cards, with five freshman coming in, none ranked very high and all needing to learn how to play zone?

This all feels like procrastinating your colonoscopy. Hoping there’s nothing wrong.

The only way we are going to get appreciably better than what we are now is to make a grand, profound set of changes. That doesn’t mean the very next coach will be the solution. But it starts us on the path toward it. Suck it up, tighten your belts, gird your loins and deal. Change is going to happen, at some level, and it’s now to our benefit to make that change quickly. If Wildhack doesn’t already have the plan for that, then he’s the second part of the problem.

Well put. Change has to happen.

Credit to JB... he built a program that was not good, GREAT for years at a small, private school in the Northeast. Not the easiest place to recruit kids to, but he found a way and for that he should be commended. However, I don't believe that give him, or anyone else the "right" (like many fans are arguing) to stick around and ruin that same program he built. It makes no sense and it has to end.

There is no light at the end of the tunnel with JB at the helm. The last final four team was now over 5 years ago. The only thing the program has going for it since then is two improbable sweet 16 runs with bubble teams. They have been middle of the pack to lower end in the ACC for 7 years.

They have lost non conference games at home in the recent seasons to Colgate, Old Dominion, a 33 point loss to a bad St. Johns team, St. Bonnaventure, Buffalo. They've lost to Georgetown (an awful program now) 4 times since 2015-2016. They aren't even competitive at times against other P5 non-con opponents- Okie St in Barclays. VCU this year. Oregon in the Garden. Just to name a few.

Its not too long ago this program was top 10-15 programs in the country from 2008-2013ish. Now its slowly declining but many people think we should let the decline continue under JB. I just don't get it.

 

[AZOrange]

The ADJW is not pushing HCJB out the door. The coach has won over 1000 games, a fistful of final fours and an NCAA championship. Last week we debated whether he “might” have his first losing season 46 years…! You don’t push that out the door no matter how much the current situation stinks.

But what you do start to do is think about succession planning and that is how I think we get to staff members/alums as the next HC. Those should be legit conversations at this point. Personally I cannot believe JB wants to coach after Buddy and Jimmy leave which fits pretty well with the class of 2022 narrative and the fact that we have no signees for 2023 yet.

 

[Cuse12]

Does anyone know the inner workings of the relationship between JB and JW?

Does JW discuss the state of the program during the season with JB?

I have no idea, but just my guess is that JW and Dino have a much more productive relationship. I would bet boeheim is cordial with JW, but also arrogant would be my guess.

 

[RF2044]

The ADJW is not pushing HCJB out the door. The coach has won over 1000 games, a fistful of final fours and an NCAA championship. Last week we debated whether he “might” have his first losing season 46 years…! You don’t push that out the door no matter how much the current situation stinks.

But what you do start to do is think about succession planning and that is how I think we get to staff members/alums as the next HC. Those should be legit conversations at this point. Personally I cannot believe JB wants to coach after Buddy and Jimmy leave which fits pretty well with the class of 2022 narrative and the fact that we have no signees for 2023 yet.

I have zero faith that JB plans to step away after this season, irrespective of the eligibility situation with his sons. The same attributes that propelled JB to the pinnacle of coaching success are in no small part working against him now as things swirl down the drain. No doubt in my mind whatsoever that JB believes he can coach this team out of the hole he'd put them in, and even less doubt that he'd be stubborn enough to believe that if he could run it back next year with largely the same crew, that the results would be different.

Problem is, we all know the definition of insanity.

And that would also apply to "replacing" JB with a current staff member. Speaking of insanity, does anybody think anything would really change with the old man's shadow looming over the program, with one of his former players / AC yes men at the helm?

I'm happy to see a larger portion of the fanbase recognizing that change is needed. That's an important step in the right direction towards acceptance. JW knows it, too.

 

[AZOrange]

I have zero faith that JB plans to step away after this season, irrespective of the eligibility situation with his sons. The same attributes that propelled JB to the pinnacle of coaching success are in no small part working against him now as things swirl down the drain. No doubt in my mind whatsoever that JB believes he can coach this team out of the hole he'd put them in, and even less doubt that he'd be stubborn enough to believe that if he could run it back next year with largely the same crew, that the results would be different.

Problem is, we all know the definition of insanity.

And that would also apply to "replacing" JB with a current staff member. Speaking of insanity, does anybody think anything would really change with the old man's shadow looming over the program, with one of his former players / AC yes men at the helm?

I'm happy to see a larger portion of the fanbase recognizing that change is needed. That's an important step in the right direction towards acceptance. JW knows it, too.

I do think Red and Gmac can coach differently. The bigger issue is recruiting. Hop, Red and Gmac are much more able to recruit without JB than with him. And level of talent and athleticism is the issue right now

 

[DoctorBombay]

The athletic department of a high major division 1 university is a big business, that brings in about $100 mil a year, and spends almost as much. At Syracuse, Jim Boeheim is, and has been, the most important employee of that business for going on 35 to 40 years. He's an alumnus. He's lived locally for 50+ years. I'd venture to guess he is friends or at least friendly with every major athletic department booster, if not University booster. He's a major cog in the University's relationship with Nike. He probably has a relationship with every prominent, sports loving person, in central NY.

An AD doesnt just fire that person. Unless, all those people that control the purse strings, give their blessing.

At best, Wildhack should be doing what he can to encourage Boeheim that now is as a good a time as any to move on. All of his children will have their college degrees by he end of the year. The sanctions are long gone. His two closest peers in the conference have or are moving on. There's nothing left to win, and we aren't positioned to do any winning in the immediate future anyway. The time to walk away was really five years ago. But now's a pretty good time too.

Stop making so much sense. You must be new here.

 

[Sherman20]

I'm trying to remember when a program had a legendary basketball coach at the end of the line that the program moved on from, and the AD got killed for it.

I don't think there were issues with Lute Olsen/Arizona. Denny Crum/Louisville? I don't think that one was bad. John Thompson and Georgetown? Calhoun and UCONN?

I could be remembering wrong and with an outsider perspective obviously don't really know, but... I feel like if anything moving on is pretty well understood.

Lute had health issues, same with Calhoun, though Lute’s were more serious. Denny Crum retired and knew it was time to move on.

 

[Sherman20]

Id imagine pushing out JB involuntarily would require approval of the chancellor and BoT.

Yeah. Syverud tried to push him out after probation 7 years ago, told him he needed to set a retirement timeline, but the most he got out of him was 3-years. Hop was made the head coach designate/in waiting. Then JB operated quietly behind the scenes for a few years to have the 3 year timeline set aside. Hop got wind of it, understood JB didn’t really want to retire, and he didn’t want to be the guy that pushed his legendary mentor out when he wasn’t ready to go. Plus, Buddy started looking like a possibility to be a D1 player. So Hop jumped at the Washington job when it came his way. …We’d finally had a succession plan in place. I really wish Hop hadn’t been such a good guy in that situation. We’d be long past the JB era now and well into knowing whether Hop would’ve worked out here as a head coach. And JB would still have gotten his fifth Final Four in 2016, a great high note to conclude his career.

 

[MikeSU02]

The athletic department of a high major division 1 university is a big business, that brings in about $100 mil a year, and spends almost as much. At Syracuse, Jim Boeheim is, and has been, the most important employee of that business for going on 35 to 40 years. He's an alumnus. He's lived locally for 50+ years. I'd venture to guess he is friends or at least friendly with every major athletic department booster, if not University booster. He's a major cog in the University's relationship with Nike. He probably has a relationship with every prominent, sports loving person, in central NY.

An AD doesnt just fire that person. Unless, all those people that control the purse strings, give their blessing.

At best, Wildhack should be doing what he can to encourage Boeheim that now is as a good a time as any to move on. All of his children will have their college degrees by he end of the year. The sanctions are long gone. His two closest peers in the conference have or are moving on. There's nothing left to win, and we aren't positioned to do any winning in the immediate future anyway. The time to walk away was really five years ago. But now's a pretty good time too.

I agree with almost all of that.

There is no doubt he’s part of the fabric of the school.

I am not saying JW has to fire him tomorrow.

I am saying that it cannot be allowed that JB has full control over his departure.

JW’s best has to be more than encouragement to leave when it’s time. That’s where we differ.

Maybe JB makes it easy, maybe he doesn’t. Either way, if JB has total control over his exit, that’s a problem. I’m happy to respectfully disagree with you on that point if you disagree with it.

I don’t disagree with the rest of your comment.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Lute had health issues, same with Calhoun, though Lute’s were more serious. Denny Crum retired and knew it was time to move on.

I remember Crum as being a little hesitant to “retire”. After a few hints and nudges, he finally agreed to it but in no way was it his idea.

 

[Alsacs]

I agree with almost all of that.

There is no doubt he’s part of the fabric of the school.

I am not saying JW has to fire him tomorrow.

I am saying that it cannot be allowed that JB has full control over his departure.

JW’s best has to be more than encouragement to leave when it’s time. That’s where we differ.

Maybe JB makes it easy, maybe he doesn’t. Either way, if JB has total control over his exit, that’s a problem. I’m happy to respectfully disagree with you on that point if you disagree with it.

I don’t disagree with the rest of your comment.

If next year would be it then yeah the fanbase should shut up for one more year.
If JB has aspirations beyond just one more year then the AD needs to speak up and speak up now.
I don’t believe anyone knows what JB truly wants to do. That said the next HC should be up to Wildhack. If JB pulled a Dean or Calhoun now then its pure hubris.

JB is never getting fired. Nor should he but he can’t hijack the future of the program.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I agree with almost all of that.

There is no doubt he’s part of the fabric of the school.

I am not saying JW has to fire him tomorrow.

I am saying that it cannot be allowed that JB has full control over his departure.

JW’s best has to be more than encouragement to leave when it’s time. That’s where we differ.

Maybe JB makes it easy, maybe he doesn’t. Either way, if JB has total control over his exit, that’s a problem. I’m happy to respectfully disagree with you on that point if you disagree with it.

I don’t disagree with the rest of your comment.

There should be plenty to work with for JW. Besides not playing a game past December 15th with a ranking next to our name since March of 2014, we have been on probation TWICE under JB's watch. The last of which we have failed to recover from thus far. Although IMO that is more on JB than on the probation. Also, we have a bunch of Ws taken away from our record books. On top of that, SU had to pay a settlement for JB's remarks during the Fine situation. I think JB was right, but he can't say what he did.

There is plenty of justification for FIRING JB. I don't think we should go that route at all, but it is warranted. JW should absolutely be pushing JB out. Or simply not renew his contract when it is up. If action is not taken, IMO JB will be here another 5 years.

 

[Bayside44]

There should be plenty to work with for JW. Besides not playing a game past December 15th with a ranking next to our name since March of 2014, we have been on probation TWICE under JB's watch. The last of which we have failed to recover from thus far. Although IMO that is more on JB than on the probation. Also, we have a bunch of Ws taken away from our record books. On top of that, SU had to pay a settlement for JB's remarks during the Fine situation. I think JB was right, but he can't say what he did.

There is plenty of justification for FIRING JB. I don't think we should go that route at all, but it is warranted. JW should absolutely be pushing JB out. Or simply not renew his contract when it is up. If action is not taken, IMO JB will be here another 5 years.

No there isn't. There are plenty of hills to die on in this debate, but we're gonna fire a guy who's won what he has won, still has post- season success, because we are having a mediocre year? And FWIW the stuff 30 years ago was nonsense, a couple of "I reporters" looking to take down some local businessmen in a down economy.

Firing a guy for being old doesn't happen.

The guy lives 5 minutes from campus, maybe 10. Who in their right minds would leave a good job to come here and deal with that fallout, while the AD is trying to raise 150 million bucks.

 

[TampaLaker]

Lute had health issues, same with Calhoun, though Lute’s were more serious. Denny Crum retired and knew it was time to move on.

I agree that there is not really a bball coach situation that compares to JB. I think the best comparison is from football with Bobby Bowden at FSU. He was as linked to FSU as Boeheim is to SU. And he was more successful. However at the end his teams were not sustaining the same level Of success. The AD was able to force him to eliminate his son as a coach BUT it took years to get that done. I think he was finally talked into retiring, but I do not believe they could have completely forced him out. I think this what will have to happen with JB if the team does not dramatically improve. Anyone that believes he can be pushed out completely against his will is not looking at reality.

 

[Fly Rodder]

For fun ... Last 7 seasons of four major coaches (three were fired or "retired"):

Coach A: .724 regular season w%, .642 conference w%, 5 NCAAs, 4.2 Avg seed, 1 S16, 1E8, 1 F4
Coach B: .609 regular season w%, .532 conference w%, 4 NCAAs, 3.75 Avg seed,
Coach C: .594 regular season w%, .508 conference, 4 NCAAs, 10 Avg seed, 2 S16s, 1 F4
Coach D: .627 regular season w%, .523 conference, 4 NCAAs, 5 Avg seed, 3 S16s

 

[RF2044]

I do think Red and Gmac can coach differently. The bigger issue is recruiting. Hop, Red and Gmac are much more able to recruit without JB than with him. And level of talent and athleticism is the issue right now

Maybe, or maybe not. Hard to say definitively, because neither of them has a track record of any kind. The most likely outcome if JW "settles" for an internal hire is that there would be an initial uptick in enthusiasm from the fanbase / improved initial performance, that begins to wind down fairly quickly after a year or two when they have to recruit their own players, and as their limitations as head coaches get exposed.

By the way, I want to state [for the rest of the forum] that it feels really, really odd to be disagreeing with AZOrange on something. I know from years of experience of interacting with him on the forum that he has a tremendous source of intel, and usually has his finger squarely on the pulse of the program.

That we disagree so strongly on this topic [and I'm not sure we actually do in terms of what might be best, just on how things will unfold once JB rides off into the sunset], is very interesting.

 

[RF2044]

For fun ... Last 7 seasons of four major coaches (three were fired or "retired"):

Coach A: .724 regular season w%, .642 conference w%, 5 NCAAs, 4.2 Avg seed, 1 S16, 1E8, 1 F4
Coach B: .609 regular season w%, .532 conference w%, 4 NCAAs, 3.75 Avg seed,
Coach C: .594 regular season w%, .508 conference, 4 NCAAs, 10 Avg seed, 2 S16s, 1 F4
Coach D: .627 regular season w%, .523 conference, 4 NCAAs, 5 Avg seed, 3 S16s

I'd be surprised if JB wasn't "Coach C."

 

[Fly Rodder]

I'd be surprised if JB wasn't "Coach C."

I mean, he has to be in there ... (and all of them have at least one career F4)

 

[Alsacs]

I'd be surprised if JB wasn't "Coach C."

A I think is Roy Williams
C is definitely JB.

B I think is Calhoun but the lack of NCAAT results not sure.
D Not sure. Maybe Crum.

 

[DoctorBombay]

There is no light at the end of the tunnel with JB at the helm. The last final four team was now 5 years ago. The only thing the program has going for it since then is two improbable sweet 16 runs with bubble teams. They have been middle of the pack to lower end in the ACC for 7 years.

They have lost non conference games at home in the recent seasons to Colgate, Old Dominion a 33 point loss to a bad St. Johns team, St. Bonnaventure, Buffalo. They've lost to Georgetown (an awful program now) 4 times since 2015-2016. They aren't even competitive at times against other P5 non-con opponents- Okie St in Barclays. VCU this year. Oregon in the Garden. Just to name a few.

Its not too long ago this program was top 10-15 programs in the country from 2008-2013ish. Now its slowly declining but many people think we should let the decline continue under JB. I just don't get it.

Though I agree with a lot of your post, the highlighted line caught my eye.
It’s scary and sad to think that not making a final four after 5 years is something that should be counted against JB. That smacks of fanbase entitlement to me.
Regardless how it all shakes out, there are gonna be years where we will really really miss JB after he’s done. But by all means, that doesn’t mean he should stay on.

 

[Alsacs]

Actually I think D is Gary Williams the more i think.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

For fun ... Last 7 seasons of four major coaches (three were fired or "retired"):

Coach A: .724 regular season w%, .642 conference w%, 5 NCAAs, 4.2 Avg seed, 1 S16, 1E8, 1 F4
Coach B: .609 regular season w%, .532 conference w%, 4 NCAAs, 3.75 Avg seed,
Coach C: .594 regular season w%, .508 conference, 4 NCAAs, 10 Avg seed, 2 S16s, 1 F4
Coach D: .627 regular season w%, .523 conference, 4 NCAAs, 5 Avg seed, 3 S16s

We aren't making the NCAAs this year so it really should be an 8 year comparison not 7. Clearly Coach A is the best, and Coach B is the worst. C vs D depends on that 8th season.