The question is going to be asked at some point…

[ForCuseSake]

I think the U-Dub job opening up (and with Hop's dad being near there, and in poor health), coupled with his knowing that JB didn't really want to retire (driven home to him by his 9-game suspension), was the perfect storm to lose Hop.

Now - would Hop have struggled here as much as he has in Washington?
Hard to say.

But - while I think that he and the current assistants will all be on "the list" of guys that Wildhack will consider for the job, I truly hope more and more that we purposely make a clean break from any current or former program guys at this point.

We're swirling down the drain... why on earth would we want a continuity hire??!!??!!

All that said - anybody who thinks that JW is gonna force JB out after this season...
(which may or may not be his first losing season EVER)

I think it's admirable that Red, Griff and Gmac have such a strong sense of loyalty to JB (and they rightfully should).

I also can't fathom how I'd reconcile the career risk associated with that loyalty were I in their shoes.

Very few organizations choose a continuity hire when the long time leader overstays his welcome to the point it craters performance. And I imagine most, if not all, of those 3 assistant coaches will be forced to leave CNY if JB's replacement is not an alumnus (and they want to continue coaching high level hoops).

If that continuity hire is given the opportunity, the leash is going to be shorter than people unqualified to question coach at a presser. So maybe they're willing to roll the dice on an extra 2-3 years post JB retirement.

 

[longtimefan]

Yeah. Syverud tried to push him out after probation 7 years ago, told him he needed to set a retirement timeline, but the most he got out of him was 3-years. Hop was made the head coach designate/in waiting. Then JB operated quietly behind the scenes to have the 3 year timeline set aside. Hop got wind of it, understood JB didn’t really want to retire, and he didn’t want to be the guy that pushed his legendary mentor out when he wasn’t ready to go. Plus, Buddy started looking like a possibility to be a D1 player. So Hop jumped at the Washington job when it came his way. …We’d finally had a succession plan in place. I really wish Hop hadn’t been such a good guy in that situation. We’d be long past the JB era now and well into knowing whether Hop would’ve worked out here as a head coach. And JB would still have gotten his fifth Final Four in 2016, a great high note to conclude his career.

I think this is incorrect on the timeline of events re: Hopkins. is

Hop interviewed for the USC opening in the Spring of 2013. He nearly got the job (probably would have had it if Enfield's Gulf Coast squad was not that year's media darling). Hopkins would have taken the USC job in a heartbeat.

Nine years ago, neither Boeheim son was considered a D-I prospect--Jimmy didn't graduate from high school until 2016 (prep school a year later) and Buddy had just finished 7th grade in 2013. So there was no connection between how the Hop situation played out and JB's probable wish to coach his kids.

The key factor in where the program is now (in addition to sanctions, etc.) is the head coach's mindset. He is a grinder, focused on winning the next game. He feels physically healthy, and he absolutely despised the inactivity he experienced while suspended. So, he just wants to keep on coaching.

The big problem is the difficulty of recruiting. I'm sure that rivals have used JB's age and stubbornness against him for a decade or more. He's never been one of the "cool kids", and his image in the present day is a huge obstacle to getting the top prospects on campus.

 

[OttoMets]

If the university put into place an AD that was impotent against offramping JB, that’s a huge error on their part.

Wildhack is not in an impossible position, he’s in a tough position. Two very different things. This is his job. It’s why they pay him enough that he doesn’t need to bartend on the weekends to make ends meet.

Step up, do your job and get it done.

Feature, not a bug?

Maybe the 2017 staff shake-up told us all we need to know about the dynamic at play.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

We have 3 forwards now both Seniors.
Neither is a lock to return.
If Benny comes back he would be the only returning forward. I have no confidence that any freshman can play right away now until they show it on the court.

Did not see the caveat. I am assuming both forwards come back.

 

[jgeorge322]

Funny thing is, I

Yeah. Syverud tried to push him out after probation 7 years ago, told him he needed to set a retirement timeline, but the most he got out of him was 3-years. Hop was made the head coach designate/in waiting. Then JB operated quietly behind the scenes to have the 3 year timeline set aside. Hop got wind of it, understood JB didn’t really want to retire, and he didn’t want to be the guy that pushed his legendary mentor out when he wasn’t ready to go. Plus, Buddy started looking like a possibility to be a D1 player. So Hop jumped at the Washington job when it came his way. …We’d finally had a succession plan in place. I really wish Hop hadn’t been such a good guy in that situation. We’d be long past the JB era now and well into knowing whether Hop would’ve worked out here as a head coach. And JB would still have gotten his fifth Final Four in 2016, a great high note to conclude his career.

Yea, the whole jim didnt force mike’s hand is such bs on this board. It doesnt take a genius to know what happened and ive called it out many times before here and was always told by ppl i was wrong but common sense obviously reveals what happened. This hurt the program because hop is now damaged goods. Id still take him back but hell get some decent negative recruiting now and wont have the relationship w the kids.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

If we're going to run this roster back we might as well establish some philanthropic component. For every made 3 by an opponent next year, JB donates $1000 toward the charity of the week.

Interesting concept, and one that might actually get Buddy to finally value defense. Want more inheritance, contest 3-pointers!

 

[OttoMets]

Well, I don’t work for the AD, so I’m not within those walls. But, I also consider myself a relatively successful professional and even if I just had a paper route, I would still come to this conclusion:

If this is true, that JB has 100% final edit on the movie of his tenure at SU, then SU, and the respective professionals that hold positions of power within, has been grossly negligent in its responsibility to the program and the university.

He has two probations, one screwed up transition plan and a number of other items that I would put in the “not great, Bob” box.

I’ve been called “kid” because I said Duke was going to smash us and now called “naive” in asserting that if the university and AD absolutely relinquished their roles that it is a clear dereliction of their duties as it pertains to this situation.

I can only hope someone up on the hill supports the program more than some on this board support Boeheim.

I don't disagree with anything you say. But the hierarchy was revealed to everyone in 2015 when the basketball program again was in hot water and the administration's response was to cut loose not the basketball coach but the AD at the time.

 

[Sherman20]

I believe you are spot on here. I practically received this same exact description from my brother-in-law who is an executive for a significant SU booster.

Yep. The info about JB making it known behind the scenes that he didn’t want to retire (possibly trying to use influential boosters to press his case) came from a couple of well-respected people on this board. Hop came to understand that JB didn’t want to retire and that he was unhappy about Syverud forcing him to set a timeline. And Hop didn’t want to push out JB if he wasn’t ready to retire (considering everything JB did for his own career), so he made it known to his agent that he would be willing to listen to other offers.

 

[Sherman20]

I think this is incorrect on the timeline of events re: Hopkins. is

Hop interviewed for the USC opening in the Spring of 2013. He nearly got the job (probably would have had it if Enfield's Gulf Coast squad was not that year's media darling). Hopkins would have taken the USC job in a heartbeat.

Nine years ago, neither Boeheim son was considered a D-I prospect--Jimmy didn't graduate from high school until 2016 (prep school a year later) and Buddy had just finished 7th grade in 2013. So there was no connection between how the Hop situation played out and JB's probable wish to coach his kids.

The key factor in where the program is now (in addition to sanctions, etc.) is the head coach's mindset. He is a grinder, focused on winning the next game. He feels physically healthy, and he absolutely despised the inactivity he experienced while suspended. So, he just wants to keep on coaching.

The big problem is the difficulty of recruiting. I'm sure that rivals have used JB's age and stubbornness against him for a decade or more. He's never been one of the "cool kids", and his image in the present day is a huge obstacle to getting the top prospects on campus.

I do not have the incorrect timeline. The JB retirement timeline was laid out by Syverud in March 2015. Hop took the Washington job in March 2017, but he’d been slated to take over for JB for the 2018-19 season. Buddy committed to Syracuse in September 2017, just six months after Hop left for UW. He had his breakout Peach Jam that summer but the staff was already looking at him as a possibility, as he was the CNY player of the year at JD and was planning to go prep at Brewster that fall.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Yep. The info about JB making it known behind the scenes that he didn’t want to retire (possibly trying to use influential boosters to press his case) came from a couple of well-respected people on this board. Hop came to understand that JB didn’t want to retire and was unhappy about Syverud forcing him to set a timeline. That’s rock solid info from a number of people on this board. And Hop didn’t want to push out JB if he wasn’t ready to retire (considering everything JB did for his own career), so he made it known to his agent that he would be willing to listen to other offers.

I appreciate Hop's loyalty, but he didn't help the University with these moves.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I appreciate Hop's loyalty, but he didn't help the University with these moves.

Can't blame Hop for trying to doing the right thing. This is all on JB and the administration.

 

[Sherman20]

I appreciate Hop's loyalty, but he didn't help the University with these moves.

He was in an almost impossible situation.

 

[RF2044]

He was in an almost impossible situation.

...and elected to do what was best for him.

No issue with that, but that decision backfired in terms of him demonstrating his chops with respect to running a program.

But loyalty / the pursuit of self-interests works both ways. Now, the AD needs to do what's best for OUR program, which doesn't include giving a failed HC a second chance, when there are better candidates out there.

 

[orangefog]

...and elected to do what was best for him.

No issue with that, but that decision backfired in terms of him demonstrating his chops with respect to running a program.

But loyalty / the pursuit of self-interests works both ways. Now, the AD needs to do what's best for OUR program, which doesn't include giving a failed HC a second chance, when there are better candidates out there.

I agree with this. As much as JB has meant for this basketball program, the Syracuse basketball program is bigger than JB. That is how JW has to think. This is a great job and a great opportunity for a coach, and JW has to go out there and play like the big boys.

 

[orangecuse]

I think this is incorrect on the timeline of events re: Hopkins. is

Hop interviewed for the USC opening in the Spring of 2013. He nearly got the job (probably would have had it if Enfield's Gulf Coast squad was not that year's media darling). Hopkins would have taken the USC job in a heartbeat.

Nine years ago, neither Boeheim son was considered a D-I prospect--Jimmy didn't graduate from high school until 2016 (prep school a year later) and Buddy had just finished 7th grade in 2013. So there was no connection between how the Hop situation played out and JB's probable wish to coach his kids.

The key factor in where the program is now (in addition to sanctions, etc.) is the head coach's mindset. He is a grinder, focused on winning the next game. He feels physically healthy, and he absolutely despised the inactivity he experienced while suspended. So, he just wants to keep on coaching.

The big problem is the difficulty of recruiting. I'm sure that rivals have used JB's age and stubbornness against him for a decade or more. He's never been one of the "cool kids", and his image in the present day is a huge obstacle to getting the top prospects on campus.

Hop was already the HCIW at the time of the USC interview. Many here thought it was somewhat peculiar he was interviewing for a head gig then with such designation, but with no timeline whatsoever of JB's retirement named or even in sight, Hop was intrigued. On an aside, you may recall how JB said USC was idiotic for not hiring Hop in lieu of Enfield at the time. With USC's success, along with its consistent ranking, as well as Hop's current precarious position at UW, makes JB's take somewhat foolish in hindsight.

SU's current Chancellor, Kent Syverud, officially started in his position in January of 2014. You may recall, Syverud would not commit at the time to Hop's HCIW status.

Syracuse was hit with probation in March of 2015. It wasn't until after that came down and SU hit with the various sanctions, etc. and JB was told he could coach for 3 more years that Syverud was 'all in' and on board relative to Hop and the ensuing transition.

As it got closer to that 3 year period, is when JB was making noise behind the scenes so to speak of his desire to keep on coaching, etc. Buddy then was indeed a D1 prospect, and Hop most certainly was aware of JB's desire to keep on coaching. Hop took the high road and landed at UW. That ultimately forced the hand of the SU powers that be and here we are today.

 

[miamicuse]

I agree that there is not really a bball coach situation that compares to JB. I think the best comparison is from football with Bobby Bowden at FSU. He was as linked to FSU as Boeheim is to SU. And he was more successful. However at the end his teams were not sustaining the same level Of success. The AD was able to force him to eliminate his son as a coach BUT it took years to get that done. I think he was finally talked into retiring, but I do not believe they could have completely forced him out. I think this what will have to happen with JB if the team does not dramatically improve. Anyone that believes he can be pushed out completely against his will is not looking at reality.

Bowden said he wanted one more year, and FSU said fine, we will give you one more year, but as "coach emeritus" with full control belonging to Jimbo Fisher. Jimbo Fisher was already designated HCIW and he's like a son to Bowden. Bowden decided to retire cause he didn't want to be coach Emeritus, he also didn't continue to be around even though they kept his office for him. Later on he said he has to step away to give Jimbo room to operate without his big shadow.

 

[Orangezoo]

I think others have touched on it but there is so much more to this and the decisions JW has to make than just a 9-10 season and the weakest stretch of years in JBs history.

The first thing is that our national reputation is that of a perennial bubble team that is dangerous in the tourney. We are irrelevant till Feb March when bubble finality gets closer.

There is now a string of guys who things didn't work out for as freshmen and left for perceived better opportunities but ultimately things weren't great in their time here. We lost some multi year guys to the portal for a similar lack of opportunity. We have even had some transfers go pro or leave because they weren't happy with the circumstances.

For the kids that have stayed the idea of transferring has been on too many minds.

All of these things are rough and yet the trend and response has been weak in terms of addressing these issues. You have former guys talking about how Hop and Bernie mattered so much.

It's a complete 360 degree storm of problems not just results that aren't great. There are very few situations where that list of problems would ever equate to a full pass.

The whole thing just sucks and it gets uglier every year it persists.

 

[SUFan44]

The athletic department of a high major division 1 university is a big business, that brings in about $100 mil a year, and spends almost as much. At Syracuse, Jim Boeheim is, and has been, the most important employee of that business for going on 35 to 40 years. He's an alumnus. He's lived locally for 50+ years. I'd venture to guess he is friends or at least friendly with every major athletic department booster, if not University booster. He's a major cog in the University's relationship with Nike. He probably has a relationship with every prominent, sports loving person, in central NY.

An AD doesnt just fire that person. Unless, all those people that control the purse strings, give their blessing.

At best, Wildhack should be doing what he can to encourage Boeheim that now is as a good a time as any to move on. All of his children will have their college degrees by he end of the year. The sanctions are long gone. His two closest peers in the conference have or are moving on. There's nothing left to win, and we aren't positioned to do any winning in the immediate future anyway. The time to walk away was really five years ago. But now's a pretty good time too.

That conversation will be met with piss and vinegar.

No win situation is more accurate than anyone who doesn't know JB would think.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

He was in an almost impossible situation.

Totally agree. Wish he had more the tougher choice though, I guess.

 

[dollarbill44]

Funny thing is, I


Yea, the whole jim didnt force mike’s hand is such bs on this board. It doesnt take a genius to know what happened and ive called it out many times before here and was always told by ppl i was wrong but common sense obviously reveals what happened. This hurt the program because hop is now damaged goods. Id still take him back but hell get some decent negative recruiting now and wont have the relationship w the kids.

It also doesn't take genius-level intellect to know that you are still speculating as to what actually happened between JB and Hop. Repeating what you've said in the past doesn't move that from the speculation column into the evidence column.

 

[longtimefan]

I do not have the incorrect timeline. The JB retirement timeline was laid out by Syverud in March 2015. Hop took the Washington job in March 2017, but he’d been slated to take over for JB for the 2018-19 season. Buddy committed to Syracuse in September 2017, just six months after Hop left for UW. He had his breakout Peach Jam that summer but the staff was already looking at him as a possibility, as he was the CNY player of the year at JD and was planning to go prep at Brewster that fall.

Except Hopkins would have been gone to USC in 2013, if the cards had fallen right.

 

[81South]

JB and Syracuse both took vows…..til death do they part.

 

[orangedave]

Funny thing is, I


Yea, the whole jim didnt force mike’s hand is such bs on this board. It doesnt take a genius to know what happened and ive called it out many times before here and was always told by ppl i was wrong but common sense obviously reveals what happened. This hurt the program because hop is now damaged goods. Id still take him back but hell get some decent negative recruiting now and wont have the relationship w the kids.

What you like to call common sense is still nothing more than speculation - as is much of the stuff on this forum (and most any other fan forum).

 

[Jasoncuse]

Damn, things are bleak, look at this ad that has popped up while scrolling through this thread

 

[rrlbees]

What you like to call common sense is still nothing more than speculation - as is much of the stuff on this forum (and most any other fan forum).

In most of these threads there is so much revisionist history as well as so called fans rooting for bad things.