This board has lost it

[moqui]

To me the Duke title teams didn't get enough credit for their defense. Of course, they had good offensive players too but their defenses were fantastic (I'm complimenting Duke, so I'm also multi-tasking by vomiting in my mouth at the same time.).

I'll also put Michigan State in there as a team led by Izzo's defense.

Izzo's title team was 3rd in the nation in offensive efficiency

Izzo's best teams are always efficient on offense

 

[Knicks411]

There is offensive efficiency and then there is can you score enough points when you have to. Efficiency is great but being able to score 80 when your defense goes bad is why Wisconsin never wins national championships.

But Wisconsin rarely plays a game with enough possessions to get to 80, especially for the other team. They allowed more than 70 points once last year, the game where tOSU couldn't miss).

When you play a 58 possession game, you just aren't going to need to score 80 points to win. Not that their offense, or any offense, is perfect, but the way they play is going to limit points for anybody.

Edit: would be interested to see if there is a correlation between pace and winning. Do teams that win titles, make the ff, etc play at a faster or slower than average pace, etuff like that. I don't know.

 

[BuffOrange]

Again, it is not point totals that matter. Butler was efficient on offense in both tournament runs; if they weren't they would have lost earlier. If you limit turnovers and create a half court game, then the team with the more efficient half court offense will win.

You win in March when you can score the ball. If defense was such a talisman, Bo Ryan and Jamie Dixon would have as more titles than K and Calhoun.

I agree that points per possession > points per game as a measuring stick. Although Wisconsin & Pitt are not great examples of your point as those teams frequently rank highly in offensive ppp (many times better than their defense).

I looked up the 18 finalists since '03 on Kenpom to see where they rank on offense & defense. Results were not surprisingly mixed. 9 of them ranked better on offense, 8 were better on defense ('08 Memphis ranked 4th in both). Most were in the top 10 in at least 1 and the top 20 in both. The exceptions were:
'03 Cuse - 11th in offense, 19th in defense
'06 UCLA - 28th in offense
'10 Butler - 50th in offense
'11 Butler - 50th in offense, 49th in defense

Butler is a well coached squad no doubt, but I think they were also a bit of a luckbox outlier.
Cuse right now is in the top 13 in both fwiw.

 

[Marsh01]

But Wisconsin rarely plays a game with enough possessions to get to 80, especially for the other team. They allowed more than 70 points once last year, the game where tOSU couldn't miss).

When you play a 58 possession game, you just aren't going to need to score 80 points to win. Not that their offense, or any offense, is perfect, but the way they play is going to limit points for anybody.

Edit: would be interested to see if there is a correlation between pace and winning. Do teams that win titles, make the ff, etc play at a faster or slower than average pace, etuff like that. I don't know.

True. Taking away the regular season it seems to come back to bite them in the NCAA's however. I know Cornell scored almost 90 on them a couple of years ago and they just could not keep up.

 

[BuffOrange]

Edit: would be interested to see if there is a correlation between pace and winning. Do teams that win titles, make the ff, etc play at a faster or slower than average pace, etuff like that. I don't know.

I suspect faster paces do better. More because that's the style elite athletes want to play than it actually being a "winning strategy". That's one reason I've never really understood what G'town is doing.

 

[Knicks411]

True. Taking away the regular season it seems to come back to bite them in the NCAA's however. I know Cornell scored almost 90 on them a couple of years ago and they just could not keep up.

Yeah, that was 2 years ago, 87-69. Cornell scored 1.42 points per trip, which is astonishing. That's one of those once a year type things, especially on a solid D.

But that kind of stuff can happen to anyone also; we lost a game in 2009 to Oklahoma because they scored 84 and we couldn't keep up. Carolina scores more points than anyone and had the same kind of thing happen in 08.

 

[NKR1978]

Yeah, that was 2 years ago, 87-69. Cornell scored 1.42 points per trip, which is astonishing. That's one of those once a year type things, especially on a solid D.

But that kind of stuff can happen to anyone also; we lost a game in 2009 to Oklahoma because they scored 84 and we couldn't keep up. Carolina scores more points than anyone and had the same kind of thing happen in 08.

So you're saying anything can happen in the tournament?

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

 

[iommi]

Damn, can't slip anything by you, Moqui. You are that damn good.

 

[moqui]

I agree that points per possession > points per game as a measuring stick. Although Wisconsin & Pitt are not great examples of your point as those teams frequently rank highly in offensive ppg (many times better than their defense).

I brought up Wisconsin and Pitt don't score because of their defense first philosophy, but that doesn't seem to help them in March. My point is that the notion that defense alone can carry you to a deep March run is false. I will grant that there are a few exceptions, but overall, you are not going to go deep if you can't score. Consistently and efficiently putting the ball in the hole is the surest measure of success. Anything else is flirting with disaster or, as you called it in Butler's case, counting on finding a luckbox.

 

[Marsh01]

I brought up Wisconsin and Pitt don't score because of their defense first philosophy, but that doesn't seem to help them in March. My point is that the notion that defense alone can carry you to a deep March run is false. I will grant that there are a few exceptions, but overall, you are not going to go deep if you can't score. Consistently and efficiently putting the ball in the hole is the surest measure of success. Anything else is flirting with disaster or, as you called it in Butler's case, counting on finding a luckbox.

I just like the fact that we are actually discussing basketball related x's and o's and not why a player sucks, jb sucks, etc. Almost reminds me of the old boards...

 

[SWC75]

I don't think it's "negative" to asses what it will take to win the national championship and whether we are currently doing it. If you think we can win the national championship you are "all in".

 

[AirForceOrange]

I think most agree that this team plays excellent defense. What gives me hope for this team, is that they would prefer a faster pace game which plays into their strengths. They have proven they can win the slower paced games that expose their weaknesses more. Basically this team's strengths outweigh their weaknesses.

 

[kingtidge]

I really don't know what to think TBH...

28-1 and happy with that... absolutely to be sure...

But the team is playing some wildly inconsistent ball right now... and yes, it is troubling.

We have 5 points 10 minutes in and are down 15... then go on a 24-0 run... it's just odd...

Yesterday was a weird game.

Things I do like:

• 28-1
• Sick depth
• Heel-On-Throat last 4 minutes... with a lead, we seem very capable of closing the game - even if stalling is required - regardless of who we're playing... This has been a big issue in many past JB teams and is actually a strength with this team.
• CJ Fair is slowly morphing into an absolute MONSTER...
• Melo - biggest player turnaround in recent history
• Depth and musical chairs hot-hands...
• Increased effort rebounding and attacking the rim (you saw Scoop and Joseph really lay down the hammer and impose themselves in the paint yesterday in 2nd half and the rebounding effort also increased.) Even Triche took it to the hole twice w/ authority (missed both) but it was aggressive... need more of that ALL Game

Things that concern me:

• Deer-in-the-headlights syndrome: The first 10 mins of yesterday's game - we looked bewildered and not ready to play. We come out like that against a very good team in the tourney and we are likely packing our bags for home... Where is our focus and why does it only appear in spats?
• Effort: So FLA is a big, athletic and good rebounding team. We showed for portions of the 2nd half that we can not only compete for rebounds with them, but actually TAKE the rebounds... Why can't we play with that effort for MOST of the game at least? There's no real excuse given our depth other than effort.

We need to take the good with the bad, I realize... but those last two bullets concern me for sure as we look towards a deep run in the NCAAs...

 

[Alcuse01]

It will be interesting to see where we fall when the Daily News (I think - or it coule be the post) does their tournament breakdown piece. They typically lay out the teams that could win, based on all of the past years... and it takes into account different stats, future nba players, etc... It basically is a piece that helps you picking your brackets, and gives you rules to go by when selecting the winner -such as no team with below this % has ever won, etc. Hopefully the Cuse is in it.

 

[swish7]

You're right. 28-1 is a lot of pressure for fans.

I am sorry, but this is really funny. Well played.