This place is turing into Syracuse.com

[OttoinGrotto]

Year Three. Exactly. 2.5 recuiting classes under Marrone's belt. The upperclass ranks for reasons that were driven into the ground here really don't exist on offense. So we have 2 with an emerging 3rd guy at WR. One guy who is skinnier than Tony Scott. That's it. West, Foster, whomever aren't all there yet. We have a durable QB who really struggles with accuracy issues. The rest are true and rs frosh who clearly are not ready. Now if in time when Marrone has real depth by class and we're seeing the fullback toss as the bread and butter then sure, I get it.

I always thought it was easier to teach and excel at defense at this level anyway.

But see, Marrone made that bed. He chose the roster he had. He could have had more upperclassmen.

This has to cut both ways.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Why pay thousands of dollars to sit at midfield when you can throw a tennisball and hit someone paying $99 for the year?

I'm not disagreeing with you on your post, I'm saying that a more compelling question is why aren't more people ponying up for $99 seasons?

 

[Bayside44]

I think you mean 2001. I don't remember any of these wins to be ugly, the Auburn game in particular

9-22-01 AUBURN WON 31-14
9-29-01 EAST CAROLINA** WON 44-30
10-6-01 at Rutgers WON 24-17
10-13-01 at Pittsburgh WON 42-10
10-20-01 TEMPLE WON 45-3
10-27-01 at Virginia Tech WON 22-14
11-10-01 WEST VIRGINIA (HC) WON 24-13

The other major difference 2001 vs 2011:

We were beating AUBURN AND @VaTech.
Now we are squeezing by RHODE ISLAND at HOME and @Tulane by 3 pts

If you don't understand the difference...not much else to say.

The VT was specials and defense. Auburn wanted out of that Dome fast. And Coach P was in his 10th year with the team then. That's the part that gets left out all the time.

If Marrone in year 5 is boring us to death, then it's a conversation point, but now is really jumping the gun in my opinion.

 

[Bayside44]

But see, Marrone made that bed. He chose the roster he had. He could have had more upperclassmen.

This has to cut both ways.

I wasn't a fan of a lot of that when it happened, but a coach has the choice to pick his players. If biting that bullet meant a better future then so be it.

I don't think there was a page in the binder for Marcus Sales to get picked up with a car full of no good stuff.

 

[Cuse2010]

I wasn't a fan of a lot of that when it happened, but a coach has the choice to pick his players. If biting that bullet meant a better future then so be it.

I don't think there was a page in the binder for Marcus Sales to get picked up with a car full of no good stuff.

I agree completely, best to take the hit short term to improve long term

 

[Chip]

Do you honestly think there is not a talent gap between the offensive players on WVU vs us? Really? If you have talent you can see the improvement but we have average (at best) all around our offensive talent

So if West Virginia kept Stewart as HC and the same OC as last year, they would have the same results this year?

If yes, then I give up. If no, then coaching made a difference.

 

[AZOrange]

The VT was specials and defense. Auburn wanted out of that Dome fast. And Coach P was in his 10th year with the team then. That's the part that gets left out all the time.

If Marrone in year 5 is boring us to death, then it's a conversation point, but now is really jumping the gun in my opinion.

I can agree re timing and I cannot speak as to how the schedule is set, but I think if you want to return to the big time you do it against the USC's of the world and not Rhode Island/Toledo/Tulane, etc. maybe you get pounded into the ground, maybe you dont (see ND wins) but you are never getting on SC against Tulane (no matter how good the game). I would guess those were just last minute schedule fillers though.

Our biggest highlight of the year nationally is a missed xtra point that keeps making SC's Worst Play of the Year contest.

 

[GoSU96]

But see, Marrone made that bed. He chose the roster he had. He could have had more upperclassmen.

This has to cut both ways.

How does any of that impact the choice of offense?

The young kids on the roster that those spots freed up are better than the kids that left. The roster had to be turned over and are still 12-7 the last two years with the turnover.

And as much as some people are offended, that is 12 wins in 1.5 vs 10 in 4.

That's the starting point that you measure against. That's progress, that's improvement.

 

[Czar]

His argument is that SU doesn't have the players to make your video game version of what you want a realistic option if winning games is the goal. So, we are running an offense which the staff feels gives them the best chance to win.

No one is posting that they love the checkdowns, rollouts to the FB, etc...but if you watch the games expecting Air Coryell with this crew isn't realistic.

I'm going to vehemently disagree. We are running the offense that the staff wants to run. It has nothing to do with winning or losing, we are running Marrone's vision for the offense, and that much is very, very clear.

 

[Bayside44]

I'm going to vehemently disagree. We are running the offense that the staff wants to run. It has nothing to do with winning or losing, we are running Marrone's vision for the offense, and that much is very, very clear.

Look at the kids Marrone has since recruited after having time to recruit here for QB. Broyld, Kinder, Hunt, Miller...none of those guys are a continuation of Nassib. Miller maybe Paulus but that's out the window now.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

How does any of that impact the choice of offense?

Elsewhere in this thread I was told that Marrone has chosen this offense because he believes it is the best offense to win with the personnel he had. It seems pretty clear that if true that's how "any of that" impacts the choice of offense.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

What in the name of the Saltine Warrior makes you think you need 5 Megatrons to have a pass happy offense? Who's saying that? I'm not saying that.

No. All you need is a QB who can throw 50-60 times a game.

Of course, if you want to win games, you need WR's that can get open. Because you have to make 50-60 catches a game too.

Unless you want the QB to dink and dunk and throw bubble screens on every play ... in which case you have nothing to complain about.

 

[Czar]

Look at the kids Marrone has since recruited after having time to recruit here for QB. Broyld, Kinder, Hunt, Miller...none of those guys are a continuation of Nassib. Miller maybe Paulus but that's out the window now.

Of course not, but until I see it with them I can't say anything about it. I saw the one read play Nassib ran in for a touchdown, but it's still a question of whether that is just a wrinkle, a primary objective of the playbook going into the future, or he just wants a QB who can run when blocking breaks down.

 

[kingtidge]

I'm not disagreeing with you on your post, I'm saying that a more compelling question is why aren't more people ponying up for $99 seasons?

Because our local fanbase of diehards is too small.

Heck, I have two $99 seasons and I drive from Ballston Spa for each home game...

But at the end of the day, it's all relative.

4 years ago we weren't complaining all that much about paltry attendance... we were in shock and awe over how the worst 4 years in SU history had unfolded...

Yes - we need to get more people there and better product on field/more competitiveness should always be a need.

I think we all need to remember how far we had fallen... and getting out of that hole won't happen overnight...

Can we recruit better? I hope so. We need some real offensive playmakers badly.

Can we call better plays for a more athletically-gifted team with some key playmakers? I'd like to see that too...

Are going to need to grit and gut through some ugly performances until the talent is matched to a more attractive playbook on O? Very much likely.

This is a work in progress for sure... and I understand the mindset of Marrone to a certain degree... A conservative approach predicated on taking care of the football and not killing yourself with turnovers and mistakes - we simply don't have the skill position players to dig out of those holes. In addition, I have a feeling the playbook may open up a bit as the season progresses if we are not inundated with injuries. W/O playmakers, we can't play all our hands now and not expect some of the more talented teams in conference not to be ready for it.

My biggest gripe thus far has been the turnovers, mistakes and awful blocking on KO returns... in the Buttgers game especially.

 

[Cuse2010]

So if West Virginia kept Stewart as HC and the same OC as last year, they would have the same results this year?

If yes, then I give up. If no, then coaching made a difference.

Not what I was saying, I was saying that WVU had the talent to make the jump, SU is still limited on the upside because the talent level is not there yet, If you think our talent can get output like WVU with that coaching than I am wasting my time. Real simple our ceiling with our talent is lower than WVU with their talent. Coaching makes a difference, but you still need the talent for the coaching to have that type impact again you are talking a team WVU with top 25 talent every year compared to us with top 60 talent

 

[Czar]

Not what I was saying, I was saying that WVU had the talent to make the jump, SU is still limited on the upside because the talent level is not there yet, If you think our talent can get output like WVU with that coaching than I am wasting my time. Real simple our ceiling with our talent is lower than WVU with their talent. Coaching makes a difference, but you still need the talent for the coaching to have that type impact again you are talking a team WVU with top 25 talent every year compared to us with top 60 talent

If we're really going to get into semantics, WVU doesn't have Top 25 talent, if we're going by stars and such. And it's been shown in college and in the NFL that the right scheme can make average teams look great.

 

[Cuse2010]

If we're really going to get into semantics, WVU doesn't have Top 25 talent, if we're going by stars and such. And it's been shown in college and in the NFL that the right scheme can make average teams look great.

No you are right we have more talent than WVU

 

[GoSU96]

Elsewhere in this thread I was told that Marrone has chosen this offense because he believes it is the best offense to win with the personnel he had. It seems pretty clear that if true that's how "any of that" impacts the choice of offense.

The game plan and play calls would be a product in part of the personnel and the matchups they see in scouting the opponent. That's obvious.

The choice of offense at a system level has nothing to do with players that left three years ago.

 

[GoSU96]

No you are right we have more talent than WVU

 

[qdawgg]

Please dont interpret this as flippant Q, but what do we need to watch again. The excuse that someone is a first year center doesnt cut it. And a good/average run blocking line can be a bad/below average pass blocking line. You have a chicken and the egg argument going here too with the medium/long range passing game. It is really hard to complete those types of passes if (a) your WRS cannot get open and (b) your line is getting blown up. Of course teams are blitzing us, that is where Cuse if vulnerable. More disturbing that the outside successful rushes are the absolute blow ups in the middle. The DTs are killing the C.

Don't take it that way at all and I wasn't trying to imply people were ed and should go watch tape. The whole offense has a problem BUT if you look at what has prevented the offense from getting 1st downs in any of the last 3 games or beyond, the majority of the reasons have occurred as a result of either; penalty, dropped pass, or bad throw. After that you could throw in curious play calling.

The offense line may not be great but they are not by in large the reason for the lack of 3rd downs and I'm equating 3rd down conversions efficiency to the ability to score more points and increase yardage. How many times has Nassib even been sacked when attempting a 3rd down, or been literally chased from the pocket compared to Paulus 2 years ago. There is pressure but Nassib is able to get through at least 2 reads and many times 3 reads on every play - that is absolutely plenty of time to make plays. There is pressure and pressure that effects the play, right now even with the Rutgers game Nassib is not getting so much pressure that plays aren't there.

As far as the center is concerned, it isn't an excuse that he's a first year center/starter but it is the reality and that is a big deal. He is undersized and he can be prone to being mishandled. However, he is typically not the one making mistakes on the line. He's not being called for holds and not being called for false starts even while being undersized. IMO, he is doing a pretty good job for his 1st year with his lack of size. In a way he is overperformed while most of the rest of the line has underperformed based on expectations of a group with experience. I don't think he is getting blown up the way you think he is though.

I realize we have a chicken/egg issue, I actually just responded to another thread about the issue with not having a stud receiver and all of the other issues that creates. I agree with all of that.

 

[rrlbees]

The young kids on the roster that those spots freed up are better than the kids that left.

Not completely true in the least.

 

[AZOrange]

As far as the center is concerned, it isn't an excuse that he's a first year center/starter but it is the reality and that is a big deal. He is undersized and he can be prone to being mishandled. However, he is typically not the one making mistakes on the line. He's not being called for holds and not being called for false starts even while being undersized. IMO, he is doing a pretty good job for his 1st year with his lack of size. In a way he is overperformed while most of the rest of the line has underperformed based on expectations of a group with experience. I don't think he is getting blown up the way you think he is though.

I have no desire to continue to bash Cuse players (even if they are at fault), so I will just say that I think most of the line problems start inside and work themselves outside. Watch how many times the D-line push comes right up the middle. I hope he gets better, I really do. Then you will see Nassib play more like the QB in my avatar. Eyes downfield...

 

[qdawgg]

I have no desire to continue to bash Cuse players (even if they are at fault), so I will just say that I think most of the line problems start inside and work themselves outside. Watch how many times the D-line push comes right up the middle. I hope he gets better, I really do. Then you will see Nassib play more like the QB in my avatar. Eyes downfield...

I'm just saying as far as viewing the games multiple times, I don't think that is where all the problems are occurring. Multiple guys are making multiple mistakes throughout the game. Many times if there is an issue in the middle of the line it's usually not Mackey - just what I'm seeing. I'm in no way implying he's perfect just because I'm defending him but he's the youngest most inexperienced guy on the line and from what I'm seeing he's making the least or close to the least amount of mistakes then the rest of the line. In a way I think we have most of the same opinions about the offense overall, we are just looking at 1 thing in different ways and I don't think your bashing the players at all.

 

[Chip]

Not what I was saying, I was saying that WVU had the talent to make the jump, SU is still limited on the upside because the talent level is not there yet, If you think our talent can get output like WVU with that coaching than I am wasting my time. Real simple our ceiling with our talent is lower than WVU with their talent. Coaching makes a difference, but you still need the talent for the coaching to have that type impact again you are talking a team WVU with top 25 talent every year compared to us with top 60 talent

My point was more to the coaching doesn't matter, it's the talent dummy mentality. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but if a Holgerson is here, do we get more output, or just the same, if not worse.

I know this is all kind of a dumb discussion, not like we'd be firing Marrone for a Leach disciple, nor should we. But it could come into play if we decide to use our increased conference $ (and my assumption of an increased coaching staff budget) to go out and get a proven OC. Or do we feel that we have the best offensive minds here now, they are just handcuffed by the talent and we need to be patient while it develops. It's going to be a pretty big question to answer if the offense doesn't get much better and our some of our scoreboard fortune should start running out. It's going to be THE question if we don't find 2 more wins, or if we only find 2 more wins and ND's bowl inclusion keeps us out. For the record, I don't think that will happen, but it's certainly a possibility.

 

[SWC75]

If coaches make no difference, what's the point in defending them? Or criticizing them? Or even discussing them?

The fact is, both coaches and talent matter. But talent doesn't mean you can't use various strategical options. Teams at all levels play up-tempo offenses and use the pass to set up the run rather than the other way around. Trying to build your offense around a power running game with no power running back makes less sense than building it around the passing game when you have a good quarterback, a good set of receivers and a back who can catch passes and needs to be in space.