This program needs talent

[TheCusian]

So either I'm getting posts/posters messed up or idk but at one point somebody stated that they were better than us at almost every position, i thought it was you. I don't see that claim anymore and many posts have been edited, if you think they are better at a few key positions then that is indeed a different argument. But I take issue with the person who claimed they were more talented than us up and down the entire roster. It's a blanket excuse, puts all the blame on the previous staff, and is the main issue I've been trying to take up here all week. Dino right now is hype. His stuff worked before. We've seen flashes. We've also seen disasters. The fanbase needs to stop the hand-holding around the fireplace and evaluate this thing honestly. We are barely sputtering along, this year might be worse than last.

I don't think anyone has said that.

 

[Pyle]

I'm only going to say this a few more times, because it seems to not sink in. When we say "they had more talent at a couple of skill positions" we're not saying its THE reason we lost. It was one of the reasons.

The coaching contributed too. But just like it wasn't just talent or refs or bad luck or mental hang ups - it wasn't all coaching. It's literally all of those things.

This isn't First Take, no need to be Skip Bayless. We can have nuance.

You and I have crossed paths a few times during these exchanges but for the most part, I do get what you're saying. In the midst of that, there are in fact people saying we have no talent, that Saban himself couldn't fix the team, etc. What a complete crock of poppy. Saban would evaluate the team, figure out the biggest weaknesses, scheme around them, and minimize the other team's offensive opportunities utilizing everything he had available.

Dino is forcing guys into a system they don't fit into. There is some highly selective memory around here because when Grob tried to do the exact same thing, all we heard about for 2 years was how we needed a coach who could work with what he already had. This whole thing is like watching the twilight zone to me. P had a boring offense. We bring in Gross who promises USC of the East and to light up the Dome. Brings in Robinson and WCO, we stink, 4 years later all I hear about is how we are a Northeast team and that crap doesn't work around here. We play smashmouth football, etc. We bring in DM who does exactly that, brings us back to bluecollar football with a hackett's good offense. Shafer takes over, has boring offense. He gets fired to bring in Dino, who doesn't have talent to run his system, which...wash, rinse, repeat. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Just because Dino's stuff worked at an FCS school, and at BG for 2 seasons with an NFL QB doesn't mean it will work here. I want it to. We all want it to. But we need to be aware if it really isn't. Blaming Shafer for losses in year 2 of Dino against a mid-major is just making excuses and buring heads in the sand.

 

[TheCusian]

You and I have crossed paths a few times during these exchanges but for the most part, I do get what you're saying. In the midst of that, there are in fact people saying we have no talent, that Saban himself couldn't fix the team, etc. What a complete crock of poppy. Saban would evaluate the team, figure out the biggest weaknesses, scheme around them, and minimize the other team's offensive opportunities utilizing everything he had available.

Dino is forcing guys into a system they don't fit into. There is some highly selective memory around here because when Grob tried to do the exact same thing, all we heard about for 2 years was how we needed a coach who could work with what he already had. This whole thing is like watching the twilight zone to me. P had a boring offense. We bring in Gross who promises USC of the East and to light up the Dome. Brings in Robinson and WCO, we stink, 4 years later all I hear about is how we are a Northeast team and that crap doesn't work around here. We play smashmouth football, etc. We bring in DM who does exactly that, brings us back to bluecollar football with a hackett's good offense. Shafer takes over, has boring offense. He gets fired to bring in Dino, who doesn't have talent to run his system, which...wash, rinse, repeat. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Just because Dino's stuff worked at an FCS school, and at BG for 2 seasons with an NFL QB doesn't mean it will work here. I want it to. We all want it to. But we need to be aware if it really isn't. Blaming Shafer for losses in year 2 of Dino against a mid-major is just making excuses and buring heads in the sand.

I hear you. But the difference esp on O, is that the system is more defined under Babers. He's been a HC. He comes in with a plan.

And I'd bet my house he's already adapted is from what he envisions that what the players he has can do.

 

[Pyle]

I hear you. But the difference esp on O, is that the system is more defined under Babers. He's been a HC. He comes in with a plan.

And I'd bet my house he's already adapted is from what he envisions that what the players he has can do.

I'm was honestly talking about the defense. We don't have the guys to run a T-2. They were brought here to be blitzers, they are slightly undersized, and over-mean. They aren't sit on their heels defenders. Franklin is being wasted.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm was honestly talking about the defense. We don't have the guys to run a T-2. They were brought here to be blitzers, they are slightly undersized, and over-mean. They aren't sit on their heels defenders. Franklin is being wasted.

I always wonder if it's worse to have a coach not coaching a system he believes in or players ill-suited to the system.

Remember when Lester ran McFu**it's system?

 

[Ish88888]

I'm was honestly talking about the defense. We don't have the guys to run a T-2. They were brought here to be blitzers, they are slightly undersized, and over-mean. They aren't sit on their heels defenders. Franklin is being wasted.

Yup, we need stud DEs and CBs to run an effective T2. also, throw in the fact that backers need to run and cover in space; it asks alot! Need amazing athletes all over the place. Problem with the T2, the scheme puts some of our very good defensive football players in a position to to get beat by lesser talent. The T2 is unproven at the P5 level, hopefully this changes.

 

[RoatanCuse]

Talent argument is fine against Clemson, FSU, Ville, etc. MTSU? I smell male cow dung.

2015 recruiting rankings: SU - 57 per Scout, MTSU 86
2014 recruiting rankings: SU - 51, MTSU 85

Anyone claiming that MTSU was a more talented team doesn't know their elbow from a blow hole. They were coached better, and put in better positions to win, and executed better, no doubt. But they do not have more raw talent. That is complete nonsense.

Good information and good assessment, Pyle. Aside from the fake injuries, we were simply outcoached. It was their super bowl and we were not prepared. That is my take, anyway.

 

[nzm136]

I'll be OK w/ stupid losses as long as it gets us to the point where we have a defined identity sooner.

We've been in 13+ years of turmoil. It's not that we're recruiting bad players. It's that we keep changing systems on them. How much are you realistically going to develop if you have a new coach every year? What are the odds of you having the right body type of you are trying to change to fit a new system every year?

I'm not the biggest fan of Dino's system, and I never have been, but we need to stick w/ it and have players try to play in it for at least 2 more years.

That consistency will make us better in and of itself. And it's not like Dino is a GRob train wreck. He's won before. He's worth the bet in my book.

 

[nzm136]

Good information and good assessment, Pyle. Aside from the fake injuries, we were simply outcoached. It was their super bowl and we were not prepared. That is my take, anyway.

SS isn't liked on this site right now, but the guy is a great DC. Look at our D when he was our DC. Look at Stanford's when he was there.

 

[TheCusian]

Yup, we need stud DEs and CBs to run an effective T2. also, throw in the fact that backers need to run and cover in space; it asks alot! Need amazing athletes all over the place. Problem with the T2, the scheme puts some of our very good defensive football players in a position to to get beat by lesser talent. The T2 is unproven at the P5 level, hopefully this changes.

You keep saying this and it's not true. It's a base system - lots of schools play elements of it. It's like West Coast offense and Spread and Air Raid. It starts as something new, coaches take what they want and riff on it depending on talent and what works for them. What we play isn't a strict Tampa 2 like what we play isn't a strict Spread O.

VaTech and Bud Foster have played their version of the "Tampa 2" forever. It's not pure, but a riff on it. You're right in that the defense we want to play requires different kinds of players that what SS employed. We have taken positive steps already (Martin, Frederick, Butler, Berry).

I think we need to see more. They did a nice job in the first half vs MTSU.

And there was not a whole lot of proof SS D would work against the best ACC teams either and we have more actual game tape.

 

[RICuse44]

I always wonder if it's worse to have a coach not coaching a system he believes in or players ill-suited to the system.

Remember when Lester ran McFu**it's system?

I think what is the worst is not having a defined system at all. Or in other word Syracuse football for the past 15 years. Over that span the only time a system was even close to being implemented for multiple years was the pressure defense of Shafer. Marrone scraped his entire offensive system just before his last season

 

[Ish88888]

You keep saying this and it's not true. It's a base system - lots of schools play elements of it. It's like West Coast offense and Spread and Air Raid. It starts as something new, coaches take what they want and riff on it depending on talent and what works for them. What we play isn't a strict Tampa 2 like what we play isn't a strict Spread O.

VaTech and Bud Foster have played their version of the "Tampa 2" forever. It's not pure, but a riff on it. You're right in that the defense we want to play requires different kinds of players that what SS employed. We have taken positive steps already (Martin, Frederick, Butler, Berry).

I think we need to see more. They did a nice job in the first half vs MTSU.

And there was not a whole lot of proof SS D would work against the best ACC teams either and we have more actual game tape.

Great insight and thank you. Yes, Bud Foster has used this defense. You stated he used it for years!

 

[corpjet]

Why is it that every new coach purges 20 players from the previous coach's roster? Shafer obviously didn't do that, but Marrone and Dino did, and where did it get them? An undermanned roster, forcing you to play players who are too young, especially in the lines. I can understand if you don't think a player is talented enough, but you can only bring in 25 guys per year anyway. I completely fail to understand why you chase off 15-20 guys, like Marrone and Babers both did in year one, when it leaves you without a full roster for a couple years after. Why not let other players outperform those you deem expendable until you can get a couple classes in?

Lets say you were handed the keys to be the General Manager of a new car dealership. You quickly find that out of the 25 employees under you, 10 are rock stars, 5 are average who can get better, 5 dont care and 5 dont deserve the jobs they have.

Most people would trim the excess baggage first, regroup their rock stars and push the average. More work would be required of who's left but there would be a lot less distractions, negativity and overall moral would be up. This is what Dino and Doug did and quite honestly what most quality D1 coaches would do. With that being said they need/should get creative on how to fill the void(s), whether thats walk ons, partial scholarships, etc. But if you have dead weight, get rid of it!

 

[Pyle]

Lets say you were handed the keys to be the General Manager of a new car dealership. You quickly find that out of the 25 employees under you, 10 are rock stars, 5 are average who can get better, 5 dont care and 5 dont deserve the jobs they have.

Most people would trim the excess baggage first, regroup their rock stars and push the average. More work would be required of who's left but there would be a lot less distractions, negativity and overall moral would be up. This is what Dino and Doug did and quite honestly what most quality D1 coaches would do. With that being said they need/should get creative on how to fill the void(s), whether thats walk ons, partial scholarships, etc. But if you have dead weight, get rid of it!

Simplistic nonsense. What about a guy like Fredricks. Basically in your scenario, you're firing one of your top 3 salesmen because they come to work unkempt compared to the others. They might not iron, might not shave as close, but they have the best truck sales in the company. You make an example of them. Now you've got the guys out in the repair shop wondering what the hell is going on. You haven't sold more than a few trucks in the past few months. None of the other guys can sell trucks and you forced your best truck guy out the door. What do you do now? That is what Babers did with Fredricks. He made an example out of our best RB, guy left, and now we have no one that can back fill that spot nearly as well.

 

[TheCusian]

Simplistic nonsense. What about a guy like Fredricks. Basically in your scenario, you're firing one of your top 3 salesmen because they come to work unkempt compared to the others. They might not iron, might not shave as close, but they have the best truck sales in the company. You make an example of them. Now you've got the guys out in the repair shop wondering what the hell is going on. You haven't sold more than a few trucks in the past few months. None of the other guys can sell trucks and you forced your best truck guy out the door. What do you do now? That is what Babers did with Fredricks. He made an example out of our best RB, guy left, and now we have no one that can back fill that spot nearly as well.

Had you held Fredricks to a different standard you hold the rest of the guys to, you lose the whole team before you even get going. The boss says "you're great, but we need you to be this if you're selling trucks for us. It's important" - the guy says "no way" ... So you demote him and tell him he's not keeping the best office. He chooses to leave.

 

[Orangello]

Had you held Fredricks to a different standard you hold the rest of the guys to, you lose the whole team before you even get going. The boss says "you're great, but we need you to be this if you're selling trucks for us. It's important" - the guy says "no way" ... So you demote him and tell him he's not keeping the best office. He chooses to leave.

Don't be that guy

 

[Pyle]

Had you held Fredricks to a different standard you hold the rest of the guys to, you lose the whole team before you even get going. The boss says "you're great, but we need you to be this if you're selling trucks for us. It's important" - the guy says "no way" ... So you demote him and tell him he's not keeping the best office. He chooses to leave.

And your division's sales plummet and you go bankrupt.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Lets say you were handed the keys to be the General Manager of a new car dealership. You quickly find that out of the 25 employees under you, 10 are rock stars, 5 are average who can get better, 5 dont care and 5 dont deserve the jobs they have.

Most people would trim the excess baggage first, regroup their rock stars and push the average. More work would be required of who's left but there would be a lot less distractions, negativity and overall moral would be up. This is what Dino and Doug did and quite honestly what most quality D1 coaches would do. With that being said they need/should get creative on how to fill the void(s), whether thats walk ons, partial scholarships, etc. But if you have dead weight, get rid of it!

I understand what you're saying, and you presented the logic of it well. But on the other hand, football is a game of numbers, and you can' really compete with too few players. So, sure, cut the dead wood.

But are there really 15 to 20 guys who can't contribute to your new style of play? That seems a bit knee jerk, to me. Guys might lose their starting positions, but still be valuable subs. I think Marrone and Dino both overdid it a bit, and then you add in our trigger-happy team doctor with his player DQ's, and then, as you saw, we were screwed.

 

[Chip]

Too bad he had Bullough running his D

Agree, there was definitely a drop off.

My guess, given upcoming opponents, is that we'll have plenty of time to complain about our D. But I don't really know why people are right now. If not for Riley's muffed punt, we get through 3 quarters of that game having only given up 7 points. MTSU may be, well, MTSU, but there are some good offensive players on that team.

Momentum changed, and our D just looked like they ran out of gas on those last 2 4th quarter drives.

So far, I'm not seeing the same undersized defense as we saw get pushed around most of last year. I would like to assume I'll be saying the same thing on Sunday.

 

[Trueblue25]

Talent is coming.

In the meantime, when we have minimal talent, we need to open the playbook and show the talent why the need to come here. At this moment WE ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH to be conservative. Not against middle tennessee state, not again cmu and not against the ACC. We gotta come guns a blazing every game. I dont care if we show clemson a play, we'd save for then, during our CMU game. We need wins and points on the board now.

 

[TheCusian]

And your division's sales plummet and you go bankrupt.

I'd rather have a good coach with a bunch of good players than 1 good player.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Agree, there was definitely a drop off.

My guess, given upcoming opponents, is that we'll have plenty of time to complain about our D. But I don't really know why people are right now. If not for Riley's muffed punt, we get through 3 quarters of that game having only given up 7 points. MTSU may be, well, MTSU, but there are some good offensive players on that team.

Momentum changed, and our D just looked like they ran out of gas on those last 2 4th quarter drives.

So far, I'm not seeing the same undersized defense as we saw get pushed around most of last year. I would like to assume I'll be saying the same thing on Sunday.

Yeah seems to be confusion with Shafer the DC and Shafer the HC, one was very good one was very bad. Countless examples of this. Shafer wasn't hired immediately as the DC at Maryland for no reason. He was also the DC at Stanford that beat USC as a 40 point underdog, he's a quality DC but again was a terrible HC

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Simplistic nonsense. What about a guy like Fredricks. Basically in your scenario, you're firing one of your top 3 salesmen because they come to work unkempt compared to the others. They might not iron, might not shave as close, but they have the best truck sales in the company. You make an example of them. Now you've got the guys out in the repair shop wondering what the hell is going on. You haven't sold more than a few trucks in the past few months. None of the other guys can sell trucks and you forced your best truck guy out the door. What do you do now? That is what Babers did with Fredricks. He made an example out of our best RB, guy left, and now we have no one that can back fill that spot nearly as well.

Sometimes you take a step back so that you can take two steps forward.

I don't get the infatuation with Fredericks. He had a good freshman year. He looked like he would be a good four year player for us.

But he didn't do what he was asked to do. So he's not a part of it anymore.

What Babers is going to accomplish is bigger than Fredericks.

 

[Pyle]

Sometimes you take a step back so that you can take two steps forward.

I don't get the infatuation with Fredericks. He had a good freshman year. He looked like he would be a good four year player for us.

But he didn't do what he was asked to do. So he's not a part of it anymore.

What Babers is going to accomplish is bigger than Fredericks.

The loss of Fredricks when it happened, wasn't a big deal to me either. I basically took your stance. After seeing what Strickland brings to the table though, it's become a major concern.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The loss of Fredricks when it happened, wasn't a big deal to me either. I basically took your stance. After seeing what Strickland brings to the table though, it's become a major concern.

I'm still in favor of riding it out. The incoming running back talent looks really promising.