We hate Notre Dame - let's unpack that

[bevosu]

1961, my brother brings it up every time we play them. Notre Dame can go themselves.

Notre Dame vs. Syracuse, 11/18/1961 - Notre Dame Archives News & Notes

I feel the same way for the same reason.

 

[adk(roc)CUSE]

 

[raf4488]

View attachment 144079

1 title in 40 years. Notre Dame is for the elderly

 

[sufandu]

Actually, he finished 5th. if it hadn't gone to Hornung it probably would have gone to Johnny Majors, which I probably would have less of an objection to, (Tennessee was 10-0-0 that year and ranked #2 and he was their star tailback.)

1956 college football season - Wikipedia

Paul Hornung College Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Johnny Majors College Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Jim Brown College Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

I know. Doesn't mean it wasn't stolen from him. Here is a cool article explaining why he deserved it. Written by a Penn Stater, no less.

A History Lesson: Jim Brown Deserved The Heisman

 

[SWC75]

I know. Doesn't mean it wasn't stolen from him. Here is a cool article explaining why he deserved it. Written by a Penn Stater, no less.

A History Lesson: Jim Brown Deserved The Heisman

Not a great article. Johnny Majors was not a "running back". he was a single-wing tailback, a combination running back and quarterback. (Eric Dungey would have been an all-American in the single wing days.) Everybody played two ways. Jerry Tubbs was not just an "offensive lineman". He played linebacker for the Sooners, as he did for the Dallas Cowboys in the pros.

And I don't understand this statement: "Five years after Brown's stellar season, the Heisman would be given to a black player for the first time when it went to Ernie Davis, also a Syracuse running back, so race could not have been a prevailing, "stuck in the mud" type of thought."

 

[sufandu]

Not a great article. Johnny Majors was not a "running back". he was a single-wing tailback, a combination running back and quarterback. (Eric Dungey would have been an all-American in the single wing days.) Everybody played two ways. Jerry Tubbs was not just an "offensive lineman". He played linebacker for the Sooners, as he did for the Dallas Cowboys in the pros.

And I don't understand this statement: "Five years after Brown's stellar season, the Heisman would be given to a black player for the first time when it went to Ernie Davis, also a Syracuse running back, so race could not have been a prevailing, "stuck in the mud" type of thought."

Your criticisms of the article are fair. So was Dick Schapp wrong when he said Brown should have won it, and vowed to never vote for the Heisman again?

 

[SWC75]

Your criticisms of the article are fair. So was Dick Schapp wrong when he said Brown should have won it, and vowed to never vote for the Heisman again?

I think Brown should have won it because he meant more to his team than the other candidates did to theirs, valuable as they were. Schaap's reaction is his own business.

 

[CousCuse]

I think Brown should have won it because he meant more to his team than the other candidates did to theirs, valuable as they were. Schaap's reaction is his own business.

When I was growing up, and all the way thru the 80's and 90's, the consensus was that Jim Brown was the greatest running back of all-time. He rampaged the NFL and one season averaged 6.4 ypc. In college he was an all-american in 3 sports, and also averaged 15 points a game as a soph in basketball. Everyone with any clue knew how great of an athlete he was and the only reason they didn't give him the honor of the Heisman was because hard feelings from the past.

 

[SmilinBob]

ND only wins things that committees/writers vote for, not on the field.

 

[SmilinBob]

I think Brown should have won it because he meant more to his team than the other candidates did to theirs, valuable as they were. Schaap's reaction is his own business.

Maybe but Tommy McDonald from Mississippi had a heck of a year as well. When people say Brown didn't win because of his color that may be true with X amount of the voters but McDonald was white and he got shafted as well. This Horning thing was rigged from the beginning.

 

[CousCuse]

I hate to think of how the refs are going to call the game Saturday. The team will have to overcome that too if they want to get a W.

 

[SWC75]

Maybe but Tommy McDonald from Mississippi had a heck of a year as well. When people say Brown didn't win because of his color that may be true with X amount of the voters but McDonald was white and he got shafted as well. This Horning thing was rigged from the beginning.

Tommy was from New Mexico

Tommy McDonald (American football) - Wikipedia

 

[SWC75]

ND only wins things that committees/writers vote for, not on the field.

Well they are 10-0.

 

[SmilinBob]

Tommy was from New Mexico

Tommy McDonald (American football) - Wikipedia

I meant Oklahoma as his college football team

 

[SmilinBob]

Well they are 10-0.

True and since this was a hate ND thread that's why I wrote it.

 

[Cuse1985]

 

[zona]

I know. Doesn't mean it wasn't stolen from him. Here is a cool article explaining why he deserved it. Written by a Penn Stater, no less.

A History Lesson: Jim Brown Deserved The Heisman

Agree that Paul H did not deserve the Heisman however, how it happened had nothing to do with a bias toward ND. It had more to do with the division of votes and how they did it. Basically the top 2 players votes were divided and because of that Paul H won.

 

[zona]

I hate to think of how the refs are going to call the game Saturday. The team will have to overcome that too if they want to get a W.

They are using ACC refs

 

[zona]

1 title in 40 years. Notre Dame is for the elderly

How many has Cuse had?

 

[CousCuse]

They are using ACC refs

Don't matter. Their cooking up a deal with the ratings they will bring to the playoffs. Clemson/Notre Dame, crazy money.

 

[zona]

Don't matter. Their cooking up a deal with the ratings they will bring to the playoffs. Clemson/Notre Dame, crazy money.

Refs hopefully will not interfere with an outcome. I do get people are worried about individual calls

 

[Cuse1985]

They are using ACC refs

this isnt good for either team. ACC refs are awful

 

[CousCuse]

Refs hopefully will not interfere with an outcome. I do get people are worried about individual calls

When big plays or points are negated, that's a red flag.

 

[Townie72]

Not a great article. Johnny Majors was not a "running back". he was a single-wing tailback, a combination running back and quarterback. (Eric Dungey would have been an all-American in the single wing days.) Everybody played two ways. Jerry Tubbs was not just an "offensive lineman". He played linebacker for the Sooners, as he did for the Dallas Cowboys in the pros.

And I don't understand this statement: "Five years after Brown's stellar season, the Heisman would be given to a black player for the first time when it went to Ernie Davis, also a Syracuse running back, so race could not have been a prevailing, "stuck in the mud" type of thought."

What a great observation! TD would have been a great TB in the single-wing. That position was actually called halfback in spite of it lining up alongside or slightly behind the fullback.

Princeton University under Charlie Caldwell was the last team to employ the formation full time up until the mid-1960’s. Heisman Trophy winner Dick Kazmier played TB or HB. And because the University played the single wing, the high school did too. It was highly effective at grinding opponents down 4 yards at a time. All 2 on 1 blocking at the point of attack including lots of high-low blocks.

 

[sufandu]

Agree that Paul H did not deserve the Heisman however, how it happened had nothing to do with a bias toward ND. It had more to do with the division of votes and how they did it. Basically the top 2 players votes were divided and because of that Paul H won.

How did he get any votes at all? ND was 2-8 and there were a number of players with more impressive numbers. John Brodie from Stanford had 12 tds to 14 int with nearly twice the yards and his team beat USC who beat ND. None of Hornung's stats were Heisman worthy that year and the team was bad.