We're still a very good program

[Millhouse]

“They made shots, we didn’t make shots” isn’t making me feel fuzzy inside.



They shot 54 Percent..what did you want them to rebound.

We shot 41 and we had 2 more. Whoop de damn doo

they had 24 misses and offensive 9 boards. 37.5%
we had 30 misses and 11 boards. 36.7%

why are the halftime guys fixated on defensive rebounding? because they're unprepared and biased against zones because they're NBA guys

 

[Millhouse]

The biggest problem is JB is still here, and should have been gone. The Administration should have stuck with the original plan. JB is to stubborn to retire gracefully, and they won't fire him. We are stuck with another situation like Paul and George where the game has passed us by.

it's remarkable that we're in such a small group of schools with consistent decent results and occasional tournament runs considering the game has passed them by.

 

[Townie72]

I can see the highly likely future in front of me.

2019/20 - Boeheim will coach.
2020/21 - Boeheim will coach
2021/22 - Boeheim will coach
2022/23 - Boeheim's Replacement will coach players recruited by the Boeheim's staff
2023/24 - Boeheim's Replacement will have first of his recruits, but they will be freshmen.
2024/25 - The critics of Boeheim, those who still remain interested in SU basketball, start whining about the "good old days". (Because that's what they do!)

 

[ForCuseSake]

Agree with everything, but this the most. Gave up 18- 3's vs. Virgina, 16 vs. Baylor, we don't change anything. Baylor went from zone to man, look what happened. I'm not saying we should have played man all game, I know we had depth issues, I'm saying you have to have more than one tool in your arsenal. Last night was a microcosm of the season in a nutshell.

We've had this debate before...

The team did change defense last night (and not just changing from zone to press).

We started out covering the ball when it went to the high post. This wasn't working because the ensuing rotation left perimeter guys wide open for 3s that they were hitting.

Then we (finally) started to leave the high post guy uncovered and let him drive or shoot. Baylor responded by putting Mason in the high post to force the defense to cover/rotate, so we went back to covering the high post.

Then they switched Mason out back to the perimeter.

Anyone who thinks switching to M2M with freshman Buddy having to play so many minutes wasn't paying attention (not saying that's you).

It just smacks of an irrational "DO SOMETHING!!" knee jerk rather than a legitimate criticism.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I can see the highly likely future in front of me.

2019/20 - Boeheim will coach.
2020/21 - Boeheim will coach
2021/22 - Boeheim will coach
2022/23 - Boeheim's Replacement will coach players recruited by the Boeheim's staff
2023/24 - Boeheim's Replacement will have first of his recruits, but they will be freshmen.
2024/25 - The critics of Boeheim, those who still remain interested in SU basketball, start whining about the "good old days". (Because that's what they do!)

2019/20 - People will be unhappy with Boeheim.
2020/21 - People will be unhappy with Boeheim.
2021/22 - People will be unhappy with Boeheim.
2022/23 - People will be unhappy with Boeheim's Replacement.
2023/24 - People will be unhappy with Boeheim's Replacement.
2024/25 - People will be unhappy with Boeheim's Replacement's Replacement.

 

[tbonezone]

the succession plan came and went. now you drive this same 40 plus year old junker til it don't start and won't pass inspection and then complain about the price of new cars but now with zero trade in value to boot. enjoy the long walk to the next exit.

 

[FrancoPizza]

the zone is now stitched to the collar of his legacy and he'll never let go or admit it's flaws.

The zone is becoming a scapegoat for a much more fundamental problem. It's his utter refusal to adapt to the changing basketball landscape. But how many 75 year olds adapt? Who are we kidding?

Wildhack's legacy is going to hinge on how he handles this transition. He's already got strike one for taking the easy way out when Hop left. If he thinks JB is untouchable then the new coach is going to be little Gerry.

 

[djorange1989]

you can make any list you want, but for a program that has been as good as ours has been for a long time, this 5 year stretch stinks. 2 outright tourney misses(I am counting the tourney ban season because that was an NIT team when we self imposed the ban), a third year where we were one stolen bid away from missing out for the 3rd time, and a first round exit as an 8 seed when preseason expectations(probably unrealistic) were of a darkhorse final 4 team. and, oh yeah, that 8 seed team lost 4 non-conference games, 2 of which were pathetic. That leaves one really fun Final 4 run, greatly aided by playing a stiff of a 7 seed, a 15 and an 11. so basically, one great 6 minute stretch against UVA is supposed to wipe out the fact that beyond that we have been nothing more than Virginia Tech under Seth Greenberg. Then add in the fact that even though we are now done with sanctions(yes, there is no doubt they contributed to what I describe above), recruiting hasn't really picked up at all. our program doesn't stink but this 5 year stretch does, and Syracuse shouldn't be satisfied with mediocrity

 

[Ryand877]

We've had this debate before...

The team did change defense last night (and not just changing from zone to press).

We started out covering the ball when it went to the high post. This wasn't working because the ensuing rotation left perimeter guys wide open for 3s that they were hitting.

Then we (finally) started to leave the high post guy uncovered and let him drive or shoot. Baylor responded by putting Mason in the high post to force the defense to cover/rotate, so we went back to covering the high post.

Then they switched Mason out back to the perimeter.

Anyone who thinks switching to M2M with freshman Buddy having to play so many minutes wasn't paying attention (not saying that's you).

It just smacks of an irrational "DO SOMETHING!!" knee jerk rather than a legitimate criticism.

I always try to be objective. Perhaps some criticism from me for this game specifically is a knee jerk reaction, but as I said above, I know we had depth issues. No way you can play man all game, none, I would have liked to try it for a couple. They hit 16 threes, SIXTEEN-not to say they wouldn't hit any with man to man. I don't think there is any debate saying Baylor adjusted defensively better than we did. I think what gets me the most, in general, not this game specifically, is the unwillingness to even consider trying to go man to man, its not even a consideration.

 

[longislandcuse]

We've had this debate before...

The team did change defense last night (and not just changing from zone to press).

We started out covering the ball when it went to the high post. This wasn't working because the ensuing rotation left perimeter guys wide open for 3s that they were hitting.

Then we (finally) started to leave the high post guy uncovered and let him drive or shoot. Baylor responded by putting Mason in the high post to force the defense to cover/rotate, so we went back to covering the high post.

Then they switched Mason out back to the perimeter.

Anyone who thinks switching to M2M with freshman Buddy having to play so many minutes wasn't paying attention (not saying that's you).

It just smacks of an irrational "DO SOMETHING!!" knee jerk rather than a legitimate criticism.

Drew must be a wizard then because when they switched to m2m, we suddenly stopped getting wide open looks and Buddy might as well have been tethered to Mason when trying to get open.

 

[ForCuseSake]

I always try to be objective. Perhaps some criticism from me for this game specifically is a knee jerk reaction, but as I said above, I know we had depth issues. No way you can play man all game, none, I would have liked to try it for a couple. They hit 16 threes, SIXTEEN-not to say they wouldn't hit any with man to man. I don't think there is any debate saying Baylor adjusted defensively better than we did. I think what gets me the most, in general, not this game specifically, is the unwillingness to even consider trying to go man to man, its not even a consideration.

Buddy tried hard to stay with Mason and the rest of the team clearly shaded toward Mason in the second half.
There was one instance where Buddy made the freshman mistake of going under a screen while Mason drained a 3 (he had consistently fought above screens prior to this possession).

I understand your desire to see M2M and I agree that it'd be great to have it as an option.

I don't think Coach Boeheim likes to make that switch during games so I get aggravated reading other people who make "DO SOMETHING!!" posts (not you).

 

[ForCuseSake]

Drew must be a wizard then because when they switched to m2m, we suddenly stopped getting wide open looks and Buddy might as well have been tethered to Mason when trying to get open.

He is a wizard. I know because I asked Chip to confirm Drew has crystal balls.

 

[Finwad32]

We are very nearly the same program we’ve always been. A handful of elite years - mediocre to good years to follow.

There’s been an ebb & flow consistently. Coincidentally, we had really elite teams / year’s capped with sanctions.

After 2014ish - some early departures and sanctions banged us up. Now we’re working through that next period.

The only variable is the mortality of our head man, who’s been here to see it all.

The knock on Boeheim was the inability to win the big one, 2003 quieted that. Other than that, we’ve been almost eerily consistent.

I mean look at our results after 2003... we had 4 years of basically nothing in what should’ve been a launch pad situation.

Cry deterioration all you want, but we are who we’ve always been.

 

[longislandcuse]

We are very nearly the same program we’ve always been. A handful of elite years - mediocre to good years to follow.

There’s been an ebb & flow consistently. Coincidentally, we had really elite teams / year’s capped with sanctions.

After 2014ish - some early departures and sanctions banged us up. Now we’re working through that next period.

The only variable is the mortality of our head man, who’s been here to see it all.

The knock on Boeheim was the inability to win the big one, 2003 quieted that. Other than that, we’ve been almost eerily consistent.

I mean look at our results after 2003... we had 4 years of basically nothing in what should’ve been a launch pad situation.

Cry deterioration all you want, but we are who we’ve always been.

View attachment 157167View attachment 157167
View attachment 157168

That’s honestly pretty interesting.

I’d say we have new concerns though:

-JB will be retiring soon
-He seems aggressively stubborn re zone
-We’re not recruiting very well
-Our player development is nonexistent

Hopkins success on the court, and in recruiting, just exacerbates all of this.

 

[721Comstock]

That’s honestly pretty interesting.

I’d say we have new concerns though:

-JB will be retiring soon
-He seems aggressively stubborn re zone
-We’re not recruiting very well
-Our player development is nonexistent

Hopkins success on the court, and in recruiting, just exacerbates all of this.

Hop was the tallest midget in the Pac12 this year.

He's pulled a few nice recruits (Zay) due to the relationships built while at SU.
Let's see if/how that continues now that he's been out West for a few years, and doesn't have those links to the East anymore.

UW pretty much sucked the last 1/3 of the season.
You might say we did too - but, the difference is, our L's were to Duke (x2), UNC, UVA.

I'll bet you a C-note that one of:
K
Leonard Hamilton
Ol Cryin' Roy
Laranaga

retires/departs before Boeheim does.

 

[Millhouse]

you can make any list you want, but for a program that has been as good as ours has been for a long time, this 5 year stretch stinks. 2 outright tourney misses(I am counting the tourney ban season because that was an NIT team when we self imposed the ban), a third year where we were one stolen bid away from missing out for the 3rd time, and a first round exit as an 8 seed when preseason expectations(probably unrealistic) were of a darkhorse final 4 team. and, oh yeah, that 8 seed team lost 4 non-conference games, 2 of which were pathetic. That leaves one really fun Final 4 run, greatly aided by playing a stiff of a 7 seed, a 15 and an 11. so basically, one great 6 minute stretch against UVA is supposed to wipe out the fact that beyond that we have been nothing more than Virginia Tech under Seth Greenberg. Then add in the fact that even though we are now done with sanctions(yes, there is no doubt they contributed to what I describe above), recruiting hasn't really picked up at all. our program doesn't stink but this 5 year stretch does, and Syracuse shouldn't be satisfied with mediocrity

throw out the tournament, chalk it all up to luck, whatever. 23 teams that have been top 60 each year. 15 teams that are top 50 each year. 12 teams better than our lowest ranking (top 43) each year

 

[phil77]

I think the major issues is the game has changed and we haven't changed with it. We run a dated offense and a stale defense. Both of those are hurting us in recruiting. I also think our player development has really fallen off it maybe me but I remember our players getting better year to year it seems like our players stopped doing that in some cases it seems players are getting worse. People were excited for this season because we have a bunch of upper classmen and in that past that usually leads to tournament success. I just think the product on and off the floor has become stale and is in need of change. Does JB need to go to make that change happen? I don't know only JB can answer that.

 

[Millhouse]

We are very nearly the same program we’ve always been. A handful of elite years - mediocre to good years to follow.

There’s been an ebb & flow consistently. Coincidentally, we had really elite teams / year’s capped with sanctions.

After 2014ish - some early departures and sanctions banged us up. Now we’re working through that next period.

The only variable is the mortality of our head man, who’s been here to see it all.

The knock on Boeheim was the inability to win the big one, 2003 quieted that. Other than that, we’ve been almost eerily consistent.

I mean look at our results after 2003... we had 4 years of basically nothing in what should’ve been a launch pad situation.

Cry deterioration all you want, but we are who we’ve always been.

View attachment 157167
View attachment 157168

i'm still pissed about that nichols year - that was a horrible snub

 

[Finwad32]

i'm still pissed about that nichols year - that was a horrible snub

Might’ve been our greatest snub ever. 10-6 in a strong Big East - 24-11.

 

[djorange1989]

i'm still pissed about that nichols year - that was a horrible snub

yeah, but Gottlieb thought we deserved to be snubbed because of our OOC schedule, and he is an unbiased genius.

 

[miamicuse]

I think one can use statistics so many different ways to get the narratives they are looking for.

We are not Duke, Kentucky, UNC...not on that tier. Doesn't matter what stats say.

Isn't this year the first time ever the cuse won an ACC tournament game since joining the ACC?

We were definitely negatively impacted from the NCAA sanctions, then Hopkins departure. Yes I do believe if Hopkins had stayed, Quade Green most likely wouldn't have switched his commitment, Hopkins was the one with a relationship with Green, not JB. K, Roy Williams, and Izzo develop a bond with their players, they are father figures. From the outside looking in I see Autry, Griffen, Macamara being those father figures, where JB is the overlording grandfather. He doesn't seem to have a deep bond with his current players, may be he did in the 80s and 90s? Recruiting wise we are certainly always seem to be on the top 3, top 5, top 8 "lists" of many five star recruits but we kind of know we are most likely plan Bs and playing bridesmaids. Brazley may have made an impact but we know what happened there.

We just don't have the athletes that we used to have that make those high flying transition games Thompson, Coleman, Douglas, Owens had back then, way back then.

Hey but on the positive side, we are shooting free throws way better now then before. Remember we couldn't make any free throws at the end of the games? They just keep fouling us to narrow the gap? We are much better in that department, Chukwu made his yesterday except one.

It's not the end if the world, look at all the other old Big East powerhouse programs, where they are now. I mean other than Villanova.

 

[Ryand877]

yeah, but Gottlieb thought we deserved to be snubbed because of our OOC schedule, and he is an unbiased genius.

To be fair, I think our toughest OOC road team that year was Canisius.

 

[samspann1]

What's this team look like with one of Lydon, Richardson, Thompson, or Bazley on it?

Much better with either Lydon or Richardson. But they're not on the squad, so I'm not sure of your point.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

He is a great example of why that stat isn’t a great guide.

Which would you rather have?

Wisconsin
2019 Top 25 season with a 5 seed
2018 a losing record
2017 Top 25 with a Sweet 16
2016 Sweet 16
2015 Conference regular and tourney champs,1 seed, national title game

Or SU?

I don’t care about being Top 50 every year if we also aren’t Top 25 every year. I rather have a 75 season and four 25s.

 

[GardenOrange]

I know people are upset that we haven't been great the last 5 years but here is the list of teams that have an SRS rating (schedule adjusted point differential) of 44 or better the last 5 years that have also made a final 4 in that time

Duke
Gonzaga
Michigan State
Kentucky
Kansas
Villanova
Syracuse
UNC (EDIT i missed them)

That's good company. That's a bad stretch for Boeheim and it's still something that most schools can't accomplish. Stop being babies.

Boeheim knows the zone gives us a high floor and that does count for something and it doesn't stop us from sweet 16s and final 4s. People are making it out like this is some dragged out sucky period where we have to indulge the old man. Temple comparisons? Cheney couldn't win 20 in the A10 those late years

I think it is just like Paterno and Bowden. Change happens fast and todays game flew by Boeheim while he was cruising at 58 mpg in the passing lane.