What is Marrone's ceiling as a coach?

[rrlbees]

Exactly, his ceiling is only as high as the university is willing to spend on football. There is no doubt in my mind that UCONN for example who spent a great deal of money on resources were affected in a positive way by the money they spent.

UConn has less talent on their roster right now than we do.

 

[rrlbees]

What does "dedicated to football" mean? UVa has really nice facilities, UNC just dumped a bunch into theirs, TOB left BC because NCSU has a far superior infrastructure...

UVa has been a bottom 1/3 program or worse for a long time now. UNC always underachieves and NCSt sucks. So I'm not sure what the facilities have gotten them.

 

[tipphill]

I don't think that there is a real Syracuse fan out there who thinks that Marrone should be fired today, this year or even next year. However I think there is enough evidence in year three of Marrone's regime to worry about what his ceiling as a coach is. Is he a 7 win coach who every grinds out enough wins to barely qualify for a bowl game or is he a coach who 8 or 9 wins is a minimum and in a good year 11 or 12 wins and a BCS game is in play?

Positives of Marrone-ball:
- He has brought Syracuse football back to respectability
- His teams never ever give up
- His Defenses are fun to watch and play like they were shot out of a cannon (how much of this is Schafer?)
- He has shown the ability to identify good talent on defense

Negatives of Marrone-ball
- Pretty piss poor game day management at critical points of the game, Marrone doesn't seem to have great feel for it yet
- A terrible offensive line for three years running from a guy who is supposed to be a great line coach
- A very stubborn streak where we will no change what we are doing - see our starting center or the pound the ball efforts
- A terrible and pretty unimaginative offense overall. See the struggle against RI, Wake or any BE team
- A tendency to play not to lose rather than playing to win
- No discipline on either of the ball or special teams
- Terrible special teams
- Zero playmakers on offense

I don't know what the answer is and I'm sure that there are more positives and negatives but to me I smell a 7 win grind out a bowl game each year coach.

i cannot believe any one is even talking about firing marrone? agree he plays not to lose,agree s/t are a disaster,agree he does not like to take chances -----however he as done MIRACLES, with average talent and i now believe he can evaluate talent.i also am worried about recruiting, and we just lost one of those games. he needs to re-assess his position on some of the calls he makes---and he will.i trust he will grow in that area. the offense blew the game yesterday not marrone or shafer. well, i'll get over it and move on. the only thing that really concerned me this week was his demeanor, that was scary as it has to translate to the players and create a "sitting on pins and needles feeling"which effects the ability to play relaxed. he is fighting an uphill battle facility wise and until that is remedied---he does what he can do with the resources he has. imho---he will look at his issues-----he looks 10yrs older since he took this job---that bothers me--

 

[Cuseman78]

UVa has been a bottom 1/3 program or worse for a long time now. UNC always underachieves and NCSt sucks. So I'm not sure what the facilities have gotten them.

Your stance can't really be that facilities don't matter, can it?

 

[Bayside44]

UVa has been a bottom 1/3 program or worse for a long time now. UNC always underachieves and NCSt sucks. So I'm not sure what the facilities have gotten them.

So our kids should just run in the snow with weights on their back?

It's gotten them some really good kids that either have been poorly coached or gotten themselves in trouble (but that's a different story).

 

[bnoro]

out of all the color choices we have,you had to pick scarlet red...couldn't stomach the thought of reading it

the nightmares are coming tonight

My fault, i picked the first color. I'll edit it to blue for you, Retro.

 

[rrlbees]

Your stance can't really be that facilities don't matter, can it?

Nope. My stance is a lot of things matter. Some schools have great facilities and their programs suck, so it must be other things also.

It's also amusing that during the final P years it was used as a crutch and now once again it is. Sticking to just recruiting, I don't think I remember a single person saying facilities were the reason for GRob's recruiting or any lack thereof.

 

[kingottoiii]

What does "dedicated to football" mean? UVa has really nice facilities, UNC just dumped a bunch into theirs, TOB left BC because NCSU has a far superior infrastructure...

The FB culture at those schools is far from real FB schools. There is a reason why UVA hasn't finished Top 20 since 1998 (Top 15 since 1994), UNC since 1997 (for both), and NC St 2002 (for both).

 

[rrlbees]

So our kids should just run in the snow with weights on their back?

It's gotten them some really good kids that either have been poorly coached or gotten themselves in trouble (but that's a different story).

Don't think I said that.

 

[cusefanpa]

Facilities play a role, along with conference, location, being in tv, and winning. I think those complaining about recruiting are being a little bit picky. Rutgers has supposedly out recruited us every year yet we arguably have more talent. What about uconn? we are in year 3 of marrone's term. It takes time to change perception of the program to recruits. I am sure no one is complaining about the thomas's, cam lynch, crume, dy davis, Keon lyn, jarrod west, etc. Marrone has actually done a good job in identifying athletic talent that can grow into the top players we need. The only place in recruiting people may have is the lack of a playmaker on offense. But will be interested in what kobena does as he evolves as well as foster and hale.

 

[memcorsu]

In Doug's tenor weh have:

• We have had our first winning season in a long time.
• Won our first bowl in a long time.
• Put more money into football then in the past.
• Made in roads to many recruiting areas, both old and new.
• Change the atmosphere on the hill.
• Seen a major effort to target the fans.
• Been in the mix with recruits that, "a team like Syracuse" should never be in
• Watch the game with the attitude that we could win instead of hoping that we don't lose badly
• Seen the growth of players as, not only players, but men (including some road bumps)
• Put our sports program into a conference that will give us more money and a more firm footing
• Such a move will support upgrades
• Have Syracuse talked about in the media in a postive way and not on the "Bottom 10" list
• Seen Manley go from a forgotten janitor closet to a legit resource for all sports
• Recieved a vision for success with the goals to achieve that success
• Upgrade in talent of the recruits (size, speed, measurables)
• See players achieving in the classroom
• Seen season ticket sales and ticket sales go up
• Have a coach that can speak coherently in public
• etc...

We do have a long way to go, and it will take sometime. Sure there are some things that I would like to see differently, but I think DM is doing a fine job. I was at the game yesterday and could have sworn it was not DM or the staff that dropped passes, threw int's, dropped at least 3 int's for pick 6, or allowed players through the line to block kicks. DM and staff have but the players in the postion to make plays, and it will click eventually. I also have seen some kids that are very "green" and will be studs in the next few seasons.

 

[Bayside44]

The FB culture at those schools is far from real FB schools. There is a reason why UVA hasn't finished Top 20 since 1998 (Top 15 since 1994), UNC since 1997 (for both), and NC St 2002 (for both).

Ever been behind the curtain at any of them? Pretty nice places. Stadium upgrades, nice crowds, fair amount of corporate cash.

It's going to be a lot different to compete against them than a lot the NBE schools.

 

[Bayside44]

Don't think I said that.

You downgrade the facilities argument. So I figured you just think we should take advantage of our built in advantages.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Everyone seems to have landed on facilities and recruiting as what will decide the ceiling for Marrone. What I find ironic is that I think this team has a lot of talent when they are allowed to play fast and loose. I go back to the USC game where for a half or so we saw a pretty dynamic and fluid offense that had no problem moving the ball against a team full of future NFL players. What I want to know is what the hell happened to that offense?

My biggest beef with Marrone is that he only wants to open it up when there is nothing on the line (ie USC where we are not expected to win) or when we are behind. Against the Rutgers of the world he seems pretty happy to keep it close and grind out a win ie he plays to not lose. This is the same thing he did last year. I'm not saying the spread is a cure-all for everything but I've seen way too many teams overcome huge talent disparities by spreading it out, this is what Toledo and Rhode Island both did to us. I think it's telling that we very rarely ever blow anyone out or get blown out regardless of talent and that's because we play to keep it close and we have no idea what to do with a lead. This mentality is why I think Marrone is going to be a 7 win a year grind it out coach like Edsall or Coach P in the latter years, my opinion really has very little to do with his recruiting.

 

[rrlbees]

You downgrade the facilities argument. So I figured you just think we should take advantage of our built in advantages.

I do downgrade it from the standpoint that some take, which is that it is all about facilities. It's an excuse when people say..."well if we just had better facilities". We've been down this road several times and except for some bigger hot tubs and some games in the lockeroom, we still have a fairly new and nice weight room, several outdoor turfed fields, and the largest and best indoor practice facility in the country.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Everyone seems to have landed on facilities and recruiting as what will decide the ceiling for Marrone. What I find ironic is that I think this team has a lot of talent when they are allowed to play fast and loose. I go back to the USC game where for a half or so we saw a pretty dynamic and fluid offense that had no problem moving the ball against a team full of future NFL players. What I want to know is what the hell happened to that offense?

My biggest beef with Marrone is that he only wants to open it up when there is nothing on the line (ie USC where we are not expected to win) or when we are behind. Against the Rutgers of the world he seems pretty happy to keep it close and grind out a win ie he plays to not lose. This is the same thing he did last year. I'm not saying the spread is a cure-all for everything but I've seen way too many teams overcome huge talent disparities by spreading it out, this is what Toledo and Rhode Island both did to us. I think it's telling that we very rarely ever blow anyone out or get blown out regardless of talent and that's because we play to keep it close and we have no idea what to do with a lead. This mentality is why I think Marrone is going to be a 7 win a year grind it out coach like Edsall or Coach P in the latter years, my opinion really has very little to do with his recruiting.

 

[omniorange]

Once we are in the ACC, I believe ACC monies will improve both the facilities and the supporting coaching staff - particularly at OC and ST. But we will still need to improve our recruiting. Hopefully playing more games in the south will help with that, but I'm skeptical on it.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Bayside44]

I do downgrade it from the standpoint that some take, which is that it is all about facilities. It's an excuse when people say..."well if we just had better facilities". We've been down this road several times and except for some bigger hot tubs and some games in the lockeroom, we still have a fairly new and nice weight room, several outdoor turfed fields, and the largest and best indoor practice facility in the country.

We don't have a 120 yard indoor field. The locker room is old school with all the aisles where everyone else has the big open room thing happening, but really most importantly the medical stuff doesn't measure up to what is over at Melo. And the rec area stuff looks like my Sadler Hall lounge from 1989.

 

[dash-30-dash]

bayside, you were in school as late as '89. I hate you.

 

[rrlbees]

We don't have a 120 yard indoor field.

I thought the Dome was 120 yards?

 

[IthacaMatt]

I don't think that there is a real Syracuse fan out there who thinks that Marrone should be fired today, this year or even next year. However I think there is enough evidence in year three of Marrone's regime to worry about what his ceiling as a coach is. Is he a 7 win coach who every grinds out enough wins to barely qualify for a bowl game or is he a coach who 8 or 9 wins is a minimum and in a good year 11 or 12 wins and a BCS game is in play?

Positives of Marrone-ball:
- He has brought Syracuse football back to respectability
- His teams never ever give up
- His Defenses are fun to watch and play like they were shot out of a cannon (how much of this is Schafer?)
- He has shown the ability to identify good talent on defense

Negatives of Marrone-ball
- Pretty piss poor game day management at critical points of the game, Marrone doesn't seem to have great feel for it yet
- A terrible offensive line for three years running from a guy who is supposed to be a great line coach
- A very stubborn streak where we will no change what we are doing - see our starting center or the pound the ball efforts
- A terrible and pretty unimaginative offense overall. See the struggle against RI, Wake or any BE team
- A tendency to play not to lose rather than playing to win
- No discipline on either of the ball or special teams
- Terrible special teams
- Zero playmakers on offense

I don't know what the answer is and I'm sure that there are more positives and negatives but to me I smell a 7 win grind out a bowl game each year coach.

You know, we've lost 20 - 30 kids out of the program as he's changed the culture in his first couple years. This is his third year, and his earlier recruits are sophs and redshirt freshman, and a few JUCOs. Overall, Shafer has been a key. We have not been able to produce a good offensive line yet, which is a little troubling. At least Pasqualoni and DeLeone could fashion an offensive line that could run the ball. They were very competent at that. Marrone has done better than Greg Robinson, but not by much, yet. The line play has to get better. We have tried to upgrade the talent at the perimeter, but we've lost a couple kids who could have had an impact to eligibility and rules violations.

I like the tradition and the values he emphasizes. I hope he can loosen up just a bit, though. He wants it so bad, and I think that made the kids play tight against Rutgers on Saturday - first time I've felt that about Doug. Hackett has to step up. Too conservative. Gotta throw the ball a little further downfield. Over the middle is open with most defenses who press cover on the corners and blitz. We've got to go a little further downfield, past the 1st down marker. Ryan is turning into a very good QB, but the calls and the line play have to be better. We really needed this win. This is a tough one to let get away, and might mean the difference between making a bowl and not, unless some people get healthy and start playing better by the time of the next conference game. Tulane then an off week to heal and practice and improve.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Everyone seems to have landed on facilities and recruiting as what will decide the ceiling for Marrone. What I find ironic is that I think this team has a lot of talent when they are allowed to play fast and loose. I go back to the USC game where for a half or so we saw a pretty dynamic and fluid offense that had no problem moving the ball against a team full of future NFL players. What I want to know is what the hell happened to that offense?

My biggest beef with Marrone is that he only wants to open it up when there is nothing on the line (ie USC where we are not expected to win) or when we are behind. Against the Rutgers of the world he seems pretty happy to keep it close and grind out a win ie he plays to not lose. This is the same thing he did last year. I'm not saying the spread is a cure-all for everything but I've seen way too many teams overcome huge talent disparities by spreading it out, this is what Toledo and Rhode Island both did to us. I think it's telling that we very rarely ever blow anyone out or get blown out regardless of talent and that's because we play to keep it close and we have no idea what to do with a lead. This mentality is why I think Marrone is going to be a 7 win a year grind it out coach like Edsall or Coach P in the latter years, my opinion really has very little to do with his recruiting.

This is an excellent post.

 

[cmr27]

But does the university expect Marrone/Gross to show a defined period of consistent success first before it will upgrade the facilities or is it willing to go all-in on new spending specifially for football as soon as the ACC dollars start flowing?

This is a variation on the basic question every expanding business faces - Do you go with a "Build it and they will come" model or demand to see the results before you commit the capex?

Personally, I think Marrone's shown more than enough to be worth taking a flier on, last weekend aside. The guys play hard for him (I sometimes wondered about that during the G-Rob Era). Mac didn't get his breakthrough right away. This is like turning around a ship. It takes time. He deserves five years, no question about it, before the verdict comes in.

 

[cmr27]

You know, we've lost 20 - 30 kids out of the program as he's changed the culture in his first couple years. This is his third year, and his earlier recruits are sophs and redshirt freshman, and a few JUCOs. Overall, Shafer has been a key. We have not been able to produce a good offensive line yet, which is a little troubling. At least Pasqualoni and DeLeone could fashion an offensive line that could run the ball. They were very competent at that. Marrone has done better than Greg Robinson, but not by much, yet. The line play has to get better. We have tried to upgrade the talent at the perimeter, but we've lost a couple kids who could have had an impact to eligibility and rules violations.

I like the tradition and the values he emphasizes. I hope he can loosen up just a bit, though. He wants it so bad, and I think that made the kids play tight against Rutgers on Saturday - first time I've felt that about Doug. Hackett has to step up. Too conservative. Gotta throw the ball a little further downfield. Over the middle is open with most defenses who press cover on the corners and blitz. We've got to go a little further downfield, past the 1st down marker. Ryan is turning into a very good QB, but the calls and the line play have to be better. We really needed this win. This is a tough one to let get away, and might mean the difference between making a bowl and not, unless some people get healthy and start playing better by the time of the next conference game. Tulane then an off week to heal and practice and improve.

The fact that this debate -- which pretty much happens on every fan message board where the coach is not undefeated -- has started only now is a step forward in an odd way. By this time in the G-Rob Era, it had been pretty obvious for a while that he was a dud.

 

[SmilinBob]

You downgrade the facilities argument. So I figured you just think we should take advantage of our built in advantages.

Yep, it's too bad Jack Lalane died because he's the only one that knows how to correctly use these weights!

I agree with the 13-0 thing along with a NC. I like this staff and I think Marrone is a good thing for Syracuse University.