What is Marrone's ceiling as a coach?

[IthacaBarrel]

The bottomline is Syracuse needs to improve their facilities for football not to get ahead but just to keep their head above water.. That is the difference. people can dispute this all they want but if facilities weren't a huge driving factor in recruiting then why is there such an arms race in that area. It makes a huge difference, huge. Like I said, get out, look around, I was just down at State College a few weeks ago, its a different world. Hell we just upgraded locker rooms for Ithaca College and I am hear to tell you they are nicer than anything our football team has for practice or games.. That is the truth but if people want to bury their head in the sand and ignore it then so be it. This is a bigger issue than the attendance. If you are a recruit, you want to see where you will live, go to school, practice/ train everyday and where you will play games. Syracuse doesn't show well right now in a few of these areas... Biggest weakness is practice/ training facilities

As far as UCONN, well they have to have great facilities because they had no history or anything to draw upon and Edsall isn't a very recruiter but somehow he seemed to be sending a few kids to the NFL every year.

I don't get is that people talk about increases athletic ability on our team which would manifest itself in the skill guys be recruited over, yet we still have all GROB's guys there in year 3 crazy.

 

[Bayside44]

I thought the Dome was 120 yards?

A dedicated football facility. Hard to have the players scrimmage on their own with a basketball court and tables on the field.

 

[rrlbees]

As far as UCONN, well they have to have great facilities because they had no history or anything to draw upon and Edsall isn't a very recruiter but somehow he seemed to be sending a few kids to the NFL every year.

Go look at Edsall's recruiting at UConn. Mostly 2 and 3 stars. He developed those under the radar guys into NFL players. He wasn't raking in the 4 and 5 stars because of facilities. Bad example. Think about this. Edsall the coach with a decent record and all the glitzy facilities vs. GRob the coach with a lousy record every single year and crap for facilities. GRob out recruited him every single year. It's a lot more than flash.

 

[SmilinBob]

I want Marrone to increase his targeted recruit percentage each year until we get to be selectors like we are in basketball. I don't know how long this will take but I like the way he evaluates players and once he starts to get more and more targeted recruits to come here, the better SU will be. Mining for players is difficult and very very time consuming.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Go look at Edsall's recruiting at UConn. Mostly 2 and 3 stars. He developed those under the radar guys into NFL players. He wasn't raking in the 4 and 5 stars because of facilities. Bad example. Think about this. Edsall the coach with a decent record and all the glitzy facilities vs. GRob the coach with a lousy record every single year and crap for facilities. GRob out recruited him every single year. It's a lot more than flash.

So you admit that we have crap facilities? I thought GROB was a decent recruiter for how bad we were on the field. Marrone certainly hasn't been lights out here. Edsall and he admits it himself doesn't enjoy recruiting or deal with the BS that goes along with it. My point was Edsall was getting more talent than people thought he was and it showed with what they sent to the NFL. You may say GROB outrecruited him but I think the end product would prove otherwise, how many kids did we compete with UCONN for? very few, that is because Edsall didnt recruit as hard as many. You can't use Edsall as the barometer for recruiting because he didn't work at it that hard and admitted it. MY point was they have decent facilities because they had or had nothing else. How many kids are going to the NFL that GROB recruited even after playing for Marrone. If you are going to really take the next step you need to recruit with the big boys for 3-5 kids a year, we can fill in with the plan everywhere else or we can be like UCONN with Edsall, and for that (Better than Edsall's UCONN) we need facilities

I think Marrone needs to and is following in Edsall's footsteps in a few ways but he needs to get a few higher end skill guys every year , somehow someway. I like the NYS kids and the FL kids but they are going to be very raw. The issue is where we need the most help, wr/rb we should be able to find kids that could make an immediate impact, which comes back to my original post what is Marrone's ceiling? Whatever the university wants it to be, IMO. Keep putting lipstick on a pig and you will have Randy Edsall's UCONN, not the worset thing in the world but not a Top 20 program. You need steak and potatoes but you also need a little bit of glitz this day and age. Just the world we live in.

 

[rrlbees]

So you admit that we have crap facilities? I thought GROB was a decent recruiter for how bad we were on the field. Marrone certainly hasn't been lights out here. Edsall and he admits it himself doesn't enjoy recruiting or deal with the BS that goes along with it. My point was Edsall was getting more talent than people thought he was and it showed with what they sent to the NFL. You may say GROB outrecruited him but I think the end product would prove otherwise, how many kids did we compete with UCONN for? very few, that is because Edsall didnt recruit as hard as many. You can't use Edsall as the barometer for recruiting because he didn't work at it that hard and admitted it. MY point was they have decent facilities because they had or had nothing else. How many kids are going to the NFL that GROB recruited even after playing for Marrone. If you are going to really take the next step you need to recruit with the big boys for 3-5 kids a year, we can fill in with the plan everywhere else or we can be like UCONN with Edsall, and for that (Better than Edsall's UCONN) we need facilities

Leaving UCONN out of it, I think Marrone needs to and is following in Edsall's footsteps but he needs to get a few higher end skill guys every year , somehow someway. I like the NYS kids and the FL kids but they are going to be very raw. The issue is where we need the most help, wr/rb we should be able to find kids that could make an immediate impact, which comes back to my original post what is Marrone's ceiling? Whatever the university wants it to be, IMO. Keep putting lipstick on a pig and you will have Randy Edsall's UCONN, not the worset thing in the world but not a Top 20 program

One, I don't think we have "crap" facilities. I was using what everyone else says is the reason for our so so recruiting. Two, you really confuse recruiting with development with regards to Edsall and UConn and GRob. You keep mixing them up.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

You recruit to have a kid for 4-5 years.. develpoment is all part of the process. Obviously, some coaches are better development guys. Edsall did a great job here and probably felt he could get away with it. GROB's guys have now been developed for 3 years by Marrone and guess what they still aren't going to the NFL. C Jones and that is all that is left. You want to win 8-10 games a year, we need to spend and spend big. Yeah, you may have a great year every 6-7 years but if you want consistent 8-10 wins a year, we need to upgrade and upgrade big. We won't win consistently, not talking 5-7 wins a year, talking 7-9/10 with the current set up for Syracuse, this isn't 1990 and I think that is what many surrounding this program want to believe.

They need to open that wallet, plain and simple. Facilities, coaches salaries, whole nine yards. If they dont we are Duke or Wake. We were lucky back in the day with Mac/ and early P years, we had an innovative system and recruited great athletes, nobody cares about that anymore, we need to look forward not back. They need a HUGE fundrasing effort, everywhere in the community, everywhere anywhere

I think you are confusing athleticism with recruiting...

 

[Chip]

I think it's telling that we very rarely ever blow anyone out .

It would be impossible. Anytime we have some momentum in a game, someone in this program (either player or coach) pulls out a gun and shoots themselves in the foot.

 

[Cuseman78]

One, I don't think we have "crap" facilities. I was using what everyone else says is the reason for our so so recruiting. Two, you really confuse recruiting with development with regards to Edsall and UConn and GRob. You keep mixing them up.

As I said yesterday, straight from a Grob era player, they are "crap". If we are expected to compete in the ACC, we'll need a signifcant upgrade. Obviously, having great facilities does not guarantee results. That, I completely agree with. However, its imperative to be on an equal playing field with our new conference peers. If everyone has equal facilities, someone is still going to finish last. That's sports for you. But then it comes down to who your head coach is. Someone mentioned how UVA and UNC had great facilities etc. Who in the ACC doesn't have great facilities. Someone still needs to finish last though. But if we are to fairly compete with the rest of the ACC, we can't go in there with FCS level facilities when everyone else blows us away.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

As I said yesterday, straight from a Grob era player, they are "crap". If we are expected to compete in the ACC, we'll need a signifcant upgrade. Obviously, having great facilities does not guarantee results. That, I completely agree with. However, its imperative to be on an equal playing field with our new conference peers. If everyone has equal facilities, someone is still going to finish last. That's sports for you. But then it comes down to who your head coach is. Someone mentioned how UVA and UNC had great facilities etc. Who in the ACC doesn't have great facilities. Someone still needs to finish last though. But if we are to fairly compete with the rest of the ACC, we can't go in there with FCS level facilities when everyone else blows us away.

Exactly, they suck and everybody knows it, it's like trying to hide a 10,000 pound elephant in a Yugo. Yet people here think they aren't a big issue. Not sayint it will be the end all be all but it needs to be done to continue and try to get better as a program as a whole, denying that is accepting mediocrity. I am not worried because I know Gross understands this for sure as does Marrone. Consistency as a program is what we need, this doesn't exclude you from games like Saturday, VT lost to a 1AA last year but you cant argue with their consistency.

 

[Cuseman78]

Exactly, they suck and everybody knows it, it's like trying to hide a 10,000 pound elephant in a Yugo. Yet people here think they aren't a big issue. Not sayint it will be the end all be all but it needs to be done to continue and try to get better as a program as a whole, denying that is accepting mediocrity. I am not worried because I know Gross understands this for sure as does Marrone. Consistency as a program is what we need, this doesn't exclude you from games like Saturday, **** VT lost to a 1AA last year but you cant argue with their consistency.

Agreed, Gross knows this more than anybody. He has already got the $15mil ACC check spent on a new practice facility or players lounge etc.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Agreed, Gross knows this more than anybody. He has already got the $15mil ACC check spent on a new practice facility or players lounge etc.

it needs to be done, plain and simple

 

[MikeSU02]

I don't think that there is a real Syracuse fan out there who thinks that Marrone should be fired today, this year or even next year. However I think there is enough evidence in year three of Marrone's regime to worry about what his ceiling as a coach is. Is he a 7 win coach who every grinds out enough wins to barely qualify for a bowl game or is he a coach who 8 or 9 wins is a minimum and in a good year 11 or 12 wins and a BCS game is in play?

Positives of Marrone-ball:
- He has brought Syracuse football back to respectability
- His teams never ever give up
- His Defenses are fun to watch and play like they were shot out of a cannon (how much of this is Schafer?)
- He has shown the ability to identify good talent on defense

Negatives of Marrone-ball
- Pretty piss poor game day management at critical points of the game, Marrone doesn't seem to have great feel for it yet
- A terrible offensive line for three years running from a guy who is supposed to be a great line coach
- A very stubborn streak where we will no change what we are doing - see our starting center or the pound the ball efforts
- A terrible and pretty unimaginative offense overall. See the struggle against RI, Wake or any BE team
- A tendency to play not to lose rather than playing to win
- No discipline on either of the ball or special teams
- Terrible special teams
- Zero playmakers on offense

I don't know what the answer is and I'm sure that there are more positives and negatives but to me I smell a 7 win grind out a bowl game each year coach.

I'll take the bait but I'm making two assumptions:

[ ] We start our ACC membership immediately.
[ ] We use some, if not most, of the additional revenue to upgrade facilities.

Prediction: We will average 7 - 8 wins our first five years in the ACC. I don't think we can get to a Virginia Tech level (I know, I know - empty trophy case). I think Marrone can get us to second tier in the ACC.

I don't think we can make the next jump, however. At least not right now. That isn't to say I think it's impossible, but I just don't see the flashes of elite play at all to make me think that we could become a top level team.

 

[Avatusstone28]

They need to open that wallet, plain and simple. Facilities, coaches salaries, whole nine yards. If they dont we are Duke or Wake. We were lucky back in the day with Mac/ and early P years, we had an innovative system and recruited great athletes, nobody cares about that anymore, we need to look forward not back. They need a HUGE fundrasing effort, everywhere in the community, everywhere anywhere

.

I completely agree. We are never going to be able to complete with ND, Penn State, or any other selector school for blue chip recruits, until the facilities are on par with theirs.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I'll take the bait but I'm making two assumptions:

[ ] We start our ACC membership immediately.
[ ] We use some, if not most, of the additional revenue to upgrade facilities.

Prediction: We will average 7 - 8 wins our first five years in the ACC. I don't think we can get to a Virginia Tech level (I know, I know - empty trophy case). I think Marron can get us to second tier in the ACC.

I don't think we can make the next jump, however. At least not right now. That isn't to say I think it's impossible, but I just don't see the flashes of elite play at all to make me think that we could become a top level team.

certainly reasonable and I agree with you. 7-8 is OK for now if we continue to build but this menatality of white knuckling ore way into bowl games needs to end and end soon, that is the next step, beat inferior opponents for the most part and compete with the tougher teams where we can win a few, not all but a few. In the ACC, we are going to need to win 4-5 conf games a year to do anything and don't look now because Wake is looking like they will do that this year

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I completely agree. We are never going to be able to complete with ND, Penn State, or any other selector school for blue chip recruits, until the facilities are on par with theirs.

or at least a notch or two below, that is more realistic

 

[rrlbees]

Obviously, having great facilities does not guarantee results. That, I completely agree with.

And that's pretty much my point. Great facilities doesn't get you great recruits without a whole host of other things. IMO, facilities is not #1 in getting great recruits. At best it is #3 behind winning and relationships and maybe other things. BTW, I have said on numerous occasions that we need to upgrade things like the locker room and mdical items. I even gave some suggestions several months ago. So yes, we do need some upgrades and show a commitment to "keeping up with the Joneses". It's just that every time we lose and people point to talent, the first thing everyone wants to point to is facilities and it is almost like they are saying "put millions into facilities and we will be top 20". It's been said and used for about 10 years now under P and Marrone (never heard it said under GRob).

BTW, where will the millions come from that so many people want to put into facilities? A donor may provide seed money like Melo did for the Melo Center but the things that people want for football will take a lot more than the $19M the Melo Center cost. Has a fund been started? Will ticket prices and donations go up at a time people are trying to figure out to get more people in the Dome and suggesting cuts in those areas?

 

[BlueCurtain]

Negatives of Marrone-ball
- A tendency to play not to lose rather than playing to win
I guess? Is this only because they didn't go for it on 4th and 1 in OT? Because taking the points there is a pretty good idea.

It was 4th and inches. There is a HUGE difference between a yard and a few inches. If you can't get the inches, you shouldn't be playing Division 1. Not to mention, the degree of difficulty for that kick, combined with our stuffty snap, hold, and protection issues - makes going for it a no-brainer.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

And that's pretty much my point. Great facilities doesn't get you great recruits without a whole host of other things. IMO, facilities is not #1 in getting great recruits. At best it is #3 behind winning and relationships and maybe other things. BTW, I have said on numerous occasions that we need to upgrade things like the locker room and mdical items. I even gave some suggestions several months ago. So yes, we do need some upgrades and show a commitment to "keeping up with the Joneses". It's just that every time we lose and people point to talent, the first thing everyone wants to point to is facilities and it is almost like they are saying "put millions into facilities and we will be top 20". It's been said and used for about 10 years now under P and Marrone (never heard it said under GRob).

BTW, where will the millions come from that so many people want to put into facilities? A donor may provide seed money like Melo did for the Melo Center but the things that people want for football will take a lot more than the $19M the Melo Center cost. Has a fund been started? Will ticket prices and donations go up at a time people are trying to figure out to get more people in the Dome and suggesting cuts in those areas?

I agree Bees there are no guarantees but it still needs to be done regardless. The funding is obviously the issue but it needs to be done

 

[rrlbees]

I agree Bees there are no guarantees but it still needs to be done regardless. The funding is obviously the issue but it needs to be done

Sure, something needs to be done but so does many other things. It's not the end all or the solution to everything. In fact, I will say that better attendance is more important than facilities to the health of this program. Marrone was step 1 in getting the program healthier, step 2 is attendance.

 

[OrangePA]

Different eras. Other schools have ramped up, we haven't done a thing but build a bare bones weight room about 6 years back. Apples to Oranges

Well, not really.

The facility wars have been ongoing.

By the mid-1990s SU was behind.

And by 2000 SU was way behind.

Dr. Gross fixed some basic deficiencies in 2005 - removal of astroturf - but the damage had already been done by that point.

Much needs to be done.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Well, not really.

The facility wars have been ongoing.

By the mid-1990s SU was behind.

And by 2000 SU was way behind.

Dr. Gross fixed some basic deficiencies in 2005 - removal of astroturf - but the damage had already been done by that point.

Much needs to be done.

I agree, there is a massive upgrade needed

 

[Cuseman78]

And that's pretty much my point. Great facilities doesn't get you great recruits without a whole host of other things. IMO, facilities is not #1 in getting great recruits. At best it is #3 behind winning and relationships and maybe other things. BTW, I have said on numerous occasions that we need to upgrade things like the locker room and mdical items. I even gave some suggestions several months ago. So yes, we do need some upgrades and show a commitment to "keeping up with the Joneses". It's just that every time we lose and people point to talent, the first thing everyone wants to point to is facilities and it is almost like they are saying "put millions into facilities and we will be top 20". It's been said and used for about 10 years now under P and Marrone (never heard it said under GRob).

BTW, where will the millions come from that so many people want to put into facilities? A donor may provide seed money like Melo did for the Melo Center but the things that people want for football will take a lot more than the $19M the Melo Center cost. Has a fund been started? Will ticket prices and donations go up at a time people are trying to figure out to get more people in the Dome and suggesting cuts in those areas?

I'm assuming our cut of the ACC monies ($15mil/yr) as opposed to the old Big East cut ($3.9mil/year) will certainly go a long way in getting us some better facilities. I certainly understand that facilities aren't the be all, end all. The point is that we need to atleast upgrade to the level of our new conference brethren to allow our program to compete on even ground. At that point, then its completely on our head coach to outcoach the Tom Obrien's and Dabo Swinney's and Jim Grobe's. But I certainly want him and our program to have the opportunity to do so from a level playing field.

 

[PoppyHart]

I would give him four years. If at the end of that period the team has not been ranked in the top 25 for at least one week, fire him.

 

[rrlbees]

I would give him four years. If at the end of that period the team has not been ranked in the top 25 for at least one week, fire him.

Hope you are joking.