Why can't SU recruit guards who can shoot?

[Melancer46]

This is just such a strange year to bring this up. The first time in what feels like forever that we have multiple players that can shoot, and we've become a team that lives and dies by the 3 and people choose to complain about a lack of shooting ability this year? Lol

I think people need to take a deep breath; this team just screams inconsistency, and the season is way too young to make any declarative statements about Malachi's shooting ability. His shot selection is pretty clearly bad, but the kid was shooting nearly 40% from 3 up until the Wisconsin game. He's had a few bad games in a row and he kept trying to shoot his way out of it like shooters are taught to. All we can really go on is that he was recruited as a shooter.

I mean seriously... a few games ago you had all the commentators talking about how great Syracuse's offense can be due to how many good shooters we have. I would have understood this argument a few years ago, but it just seems weird to harp on this after we clearly targeted shooting with our most recent recruiting class by bringing in Malachi and Lydon.

I will say the FT shooting has driven me nuts for a long time and still does, and the lack of shooters in the past has driven me nuts, but this year we appear to actually have a bunch of guys that can shoot; we just don't have much else.

 

[Millhouse]

This is just such a strange year to bring this up. The first time in what feels like forever that we have multiple players that can shoot, and we've become a team that lives and dies by the 3 and people choose to complain about a lack of shooting ability this year? Lol

I think people need to take a deep breath; this team just screams inconsistency, and the season is way too young to make any declarative statements about Malachi's shooting ability. His shot selection is pretty clearly bad, but the kid was shooting nearly 40% from 3 up until the Wisconsin game. He's had a few bad games in a row and he kept trying to shoot his way out of it like shooters are taught to. All we can really go on is that he was recruited as a shooter.

I mean seriously... a few games ago you had all the commentators talking about how great Syracuse's offense can be due to how many good shooters we have. I would have understood this argument a few years ago, but it just seems weird to harp on this after we clearly targeted shooting with our most recent recruiting class by bringing in Malachi and Lydon.

I will say the FT shooting has driven me nuts for a long time and still does, and the lack of shooters in the past has driven me nuts, but this year we appear to actually have a bunch of guys that can shoot; we just don't have much else.

cooney and richardson are shooting under 30% on 145 three pointers so far

gbinije was a forward who is doing a great job at the point but that's not what he was recruited by duke to do and it's not what boeheim expected him to do when he transferred here. part of the reason he's playing there is because they've failed at recruiting guards who can shoot

i'm very pleased with lydon. it's too bad he's wasting so much energy on defense playing out of position

 

[Alsacs]

Cooney at 25-32 mpg would be a lot better for his shooting percentage. He is clearly the best option at SG but the 38-40 mpg just kills his legs and the team. I am sorry the fact we can't recruit more SGs to get into the rotation is just unbelievable.

We have let this guy play SG 3 years in a ROW without being pushed. He is going to play an insane amount of minutes for inefficient he is on offense and his D isn't special. It is good not special.

Recruiting has really let the program down. Joseph/Howard just like Johnson/Patterson don't get minutes to develop.

The lack of offense from the SG position was our biggest problem for why the offense went downhill in the 2nd half of the 2014 season. If we had more offense from our SG position that team goes to the Elite Eight atleast.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Cooney at 25-32 mpg would be a lot better for his shooting percentage. He is clearly the best option at SG but the 38-40 mpg just kills his legs and the team. I am sorry the fact we can't recruit more SGs to get into the rotation is just unbelievable.

We have let this guy play SG 3 years in a ROW without being pushed. He is going to play an insane amount of minutes for inefficient he is on offense and his D isn't special. It is good not special.

Recruiting has really let the program down. Joseph/Howard just like Johnson/Patterson don't get minutes to develop.

The lack of offense from the SG position was our biggest problem for why the offense went downhill in the 2nd half of the 2014 season. If we had more offense from our SG position that team goes to the Elite Eight atleast.

I don't blame recruiting. All the guys we get are 4 and 5 stars.

Cooney and Richardson were wanted by schools known for shooting (Notre Dame and Indiana)

We get top 10 classes every year.

The guys missing shots are 4 and 5 star guys.

Maybe our staff isn't good at coaching shooting. Players shooting ability seem to regress here. Why is that?

Why did Cooney go fro 38% to the low 30's now? He also used to be over 80% from the line. Now he's in the high 70's.

Why did Triche go from 40 percent to 29 percent when he was a SR? He went from over 80% from the line where he once made like 30 in a row, to the 70's as a senior.

 

[Millhouse]

I don't blame recruiting. All the guys we get are 4 and 5 stars.

Cooney and Richardson were wanted by schools known for shooting (Notre Dame and Indiana)

We get top 10 classes every year.

The guys missing shots are 4 and 5 star guys.

Maybe our staff isn't good at coaching shooting. Players shooting ability seem to regress here. Why is that?

Why did Cooney go fro 38% to the low 30's now? He also used to be over 80% from the line. Now he's in the high 70's.

Why did Triche go from 40 percent to 29 percent when he was a SR? He went from over 80% from the line where he once made like 30 in a row, to the 70's as a senior.

everything depends on them having an unguardable small forward. they spend all their time practicing against the zone and can't get good shots

 

[br801]

I don't blame recruiting. All the guys we get are 4 and 5 stars.

Cooney and Richardson were wanted by schools known for shooting (Notre Dame and Indiana)

We get top 10 classes every year.

The guys missing shots are 4 and 5 star guys.

Maybe our staff isn't good at coaching shooting. Players shooting ability seem to regress here. Why is that?

Why did Cooney go fro 38% to the low 30's now? He also used to be over 80% from the line. Now he's in the high 70's.

Why did Triche go from 40 percent to 29 percent when he was a SR? He went from over 80% from the line where he once made like 30 in a row, to the 70's as a senior.

Triche was at 40% from deep as a freshman when he was at best a fourth option on offense and shot relatively infrequently. Things change when you are asked to play a more primary role and are taking more difficult and contested shots. He also played through injuries in his later years which may have impacted his 3-point shooting. He really wasn't all that terrible from deep as a senior until he slumped badly about half way through the season.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't blame recruiting. All the guys we get are 4 and 5 stars.

Cooney and Richardson were wanted by schools known for shooting (Notre Dame and Indiana)

We get top 10 classes every year.

The guys missing shots are 4 and 5 star guys.

Maybe our staff isn't good at coaching shooting. Players shooting ability seem to regress here. Why is that?

Why did Cooney go fro 38% to the low 30's now? He also used to be over 80% from the line. Now he's in the high 70's.

Why did Triche go from 40 percent to 29 percent when he was a SR? He went from over 80% from the line where he once made like 30 in a row, to the 70's as a senior.

Richardson is fine. He is an NBA first round pick. He just needs to grow and get thru his struggles. He is playing out of position he should be a SG in college in a 2-3. He isn't a great rebounder and we struggle on the glass on his side.

We can't play Richardson at 2 because we have no other SF options for the most part.

I got no worries with him. He will get better or will become a 2-3 year player. Cooney just needs to play less minutes. No other top program would play a guy like him as many minutes as we have 3 years in a row. He should play starters minutes but not superstar minutes. It is laughable if you go look at the MPG Dion Waiters played in his 2 seasons here. I know we had Triche/Scoop but it is just laughable how Dion Waiters played 25mpg and did what he did.

We need to play Cooney less but we won't. We don't give kids minutes to develop for some reason. Howard/Joseph are the crossroads of being useless that makes no sense when Cooney playing 38 mpg makes no sense.

 

[Alsacs]

Go look at John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating on ESPN for college basketball. It is amazing how non-efficient some of our players are.
Gbinije is 80th in the country(which is great and would be higher if he played less). If you have insider guess who is bottom 5 in just the ACC.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/hollinger/statistics

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Since Mcnamara has been a full assistant coach, SU's guards have shot 33% from 3 point range and have shot 70% from the free throw line

Dukes guards have shot 39% from three and 79% from the free throw line

Duke is 18% better from 3 and 13% better. (not percentage points, taking the difference in shooting percentages and dividing by su's shooting percentage)

I'm not pinning this on McNamara but, for whatever reason, he is not coaching these guys into shooters.

Oh no you didn't!

But, actually, I've wondered the same thing about McNamara.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Richardson is fine. He is an NBA first round pick. He just needs to grow and get thru his struggles. He is playing out of position he should be a SG in college in a 2-3. He isn't a great rebounder and we struggle on the glass on his side.

We can't play Richardson at 2 because we have no other SF options for the most part.

I got no worries with him. He will get better or will become a 2-3 year player. Cooney just needs to play less minutes. No other top program would play a guy like him as many minutes as we have 3 years in a row. He should play starters minutes but not superstar minutes. It is laughable if you go look at the MPG Dion Waiters played in his 2 seasons here. I know we had Triche/Scoop but it is just laughable how Dion Waiters played 25mpg and did what he did.

We need to play Cooney less but we won't. We don't give kids minutes to develop for some reason. Howard/Joseph are the crossroads of being useless that makes no sense when Cooney playing 38 mpg makes no sense.

Richardson is a weird player to project. His form looks great, but he's not a good shooter IMO. His numbers are worse across the board than Cooney.

If he was, he would shoot better than 64% from the line.

He's at least a two year player at this point.

I think he and Cooney need to be closer to the line. NBA threes don't count as more. That would help both of them.

I'm not asking for 40% here. 34% would be nice. I think thats all we need.

A better solution is to get Tyler Lydon to realize he's the 2nd best player on this team.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Richardson is a weird player to project. His form looks great, but he's not a good shooter IMO. His numbers are worse across the board than Cooney.

If he was, he would shoot better than 64% from the line.

He's at least a two year player at this point.

I think he and Cooney need to be closer to the line. NBA threes don't count as more. That would help both of them.

I'm not asking for 40% here. 34% would be nice. I think thats all we need.

A better solution is to get Tyler Lydon to realize he's the 2nd best player on this team.

Usually if you're relying on true freshmen for consistent three point shooting, you're going to get unreliable to bad results. I think we're seeing that with Malachi.

I've mentioned it before, but Malachi's actually a lot better than I thought. I was ready for him to be pretty one dimensional. He's much closer to a complete player than expected. He's our second best driver behind Gbinije and the guy draws a ton of fouls. There's a lot to like about his game. He's just missing a lot of shots.

 

[SWC75]

Boeheim has said we recruit players who we think can play the zone and their offense will come later.

Richarson was 4-20 and o-11 from 3

Cooney was 3-12 and 1-8 from 3.

Not good at all. Syracuse has no inside game at all and Richardson has turned into a big liability around the basket on offense. Just foul him or let him shoot as either he misses the bunnies or gets the ball blocked by either player or rim. Coleman just has had bad luck with his injuries and can't elevate enough to get off good shots.

Cooney and Richardson were recruited to play the zone and their offense was supposed to come later? First I've heard of that.

 

[Alsacs]

Just so people understand PER. Average is 15.0

13.3 is not good. Especially when G is at 27.61

 

[SWC75]

Maybe it's just Syracuse. A lot of these guys seem to be better shooters at the beginning of their careers than the end. Cooney was 38% two years ago, now he's in the low 30's. Triche started at 40% and his percentages dropped throughout his career. Are they put in places they can best succeed?

Malachi was supposed to be a shooter, but he's at 27% right now. I don't know if he can shoot as good as Cooney can, his Free Throw percentage is in the 60's. That's not the mark of a good shooter.

Mike is this teams number 1 option. We really need to make Lydon option number 2. He's the most talented player we have.

Players can be better shooters, percentage wise at the beginning of their careers than at the end if their playing time goes up, the same of shots increases and the defensive attention goes up, as usually happens.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Players can be better shooters, percentage wise at the beginning of their careers than at the end if their playing time goes up, the same of shots increases and the defensive attention goes up, as usually happens.

It still doesn't explain the decrease in FT shooting %.

 

[RF2044]

Players can be better shooters, percentage wise at the beginning of their careers than at the end if their playing time goes up, the same of shots increases and the defensive attention goes up, as usually happens.

Very true. And a slight dropoff is to be expected as the player draws more concerted defensive attention.

The issue is a guy like Triche who is a four year stater dropping to 27% [or whatever] his senior year. Saw the same thing with CJ Fair, who was the ultimate complimentary shooter as a junior [hitting nearly 50% of his threes], but dropping to ~29% as a senior forced to carry the team.

I think that's why people are scratching their heads. We know that these players are capable of doing better, but they are dropping off of a cliff when it comes to shooting percentages.

 

[Alsacs]

Players can be better shooters, percentage wise at the beginning of their careers than at the end if their playing time goes up, the same of shots increases and the defensive attention goes up, as usually happens.

Cooney's playing time has gone from 2013-32.4mpg to 2014-37.2mpg to 2015 38.2mpg

Maybe instead of playing him 5-6 extra MPG he should rest. However, the coaching staff has continued playing him the entire game.

To my point he should be playing 28-32 mpg not 37-38 mpg.

To play a player who is not a superstar the minutes of a superstar makes no sense and brings this attention to him.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Usually if you're relying on true freshmen for consistent three point shooting, you're going to get unreliable to bad results. I think we're seeing that with Malachi.

I've mentioned it before, but Malachi's actually a lot better than I thought. I was ready for him to be pretty one dimensional. He's much closer to a complete player than expected. He's our second best driver behind Gbinije and the guy draws a ton of fouls. There's a lot to like about his game. He's just missing a lot of shots.

I'm not going to be harsh, because he's not a finished project, but getting he or Cooney shooting high volumes of shots is not a recipe for winning Syracuse basketball. Richardson has good form, but thats all I can say right now. St. Johns wanted Malachi to shoot yesterday, Mullin basically said as much after the game.

Lydon has made 3 less shots overall on 42 less attempts.

Lydon has made 6 less threes on 44 less attempts.

It's a long season, hopefully everyone gets better, but I think the success of the season is predicated on getting Lydon more aggressive.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Cooney's playing time has gone from 2013-32.4mpg to 2014-37.2mpg to 2015 38.2mpg

Maybe instead of playing him 5-6 extra MPG he should rest. However, the coaching staff has continued playing him the entire game.

To my point he should be playing 28-32 mpg not 37-38 mpg.

To play a player who is not a superstar the minutes of a superstar makes no sense and brings this attention to him.

The missing link here is Joseph. He should be a solid contributor this year as a top 50 recruit, but for whatever reason it hasn't happened.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm not going to be, because he's not a finished project, but getting he or Cooney shooting high volumes of shots is not a recipe for winning Syracuse basketball. Richardson has good form, but thats all I can say right now. St. Johns wanted Malachi to shoot yesterday, Mullin basically said as much after the game.

Lydon has made 3 less shots overall on 42 less attempts.

Lydon has made 6 less threes on 44 less attempts.

It's a long season, hopefully everyone gets better, but I think the success of the season is predicated on getting Lydon more aggressive.

Yeah, Lydon could let if fly a bit more than he has, no doubt.

One thing though, since we only play 6 guys, and one of those guys only shoots when he gets a put back, and another one is limited offensively too, we're going to see a lot of shots coming from the same guys. Somebody's got to take shots. I think we'd all agree we'd like to see Gbinije err on the side of taking more and Lydon being a bit more aggressive, but I can't fault Malachi or Cooney for hucking it up now and again if nobody else is.

 

[RF2044]

The missing link here is Joseph. He should be a solid contributor this year as a top 50 recruit, but for whatever reason it hasn't happened.

Agreed. The lack of quality lead guard on this team to free Gbinije up to concentrate on scoring is really hurting this team. Joseph's regression is puzzling, given what JB had to say about his offseason. And us not having force fed either Joseph or Howard lots of developmental PT this preseason isn't going to help correct that problem.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Very true. And a slight dropoff is to be expected as the player draws more concerted defensive attention.

The issue is a guy like Triche who is a four year stater dropping to 27% [or whatever] his senior year. Saw the same thing with CJ Fair, who was the ultimate complimentary shooter as a junior [hitting nearly 50% of his threes], but dropping to ~29% as a senior forced to carry the team.

I think that's why people are scratching their heads. We know that these players are capable of doing better, but they are dropping off of a cliff when it comes to shooting percentages.

I saw Cooney make open threes two years ago pretty consistently. The last two years, not as much. That's all I want to know.

I'd like to watch the Indiana or Notre Dame games from 2013 and see if theres any differences in his form.

 

[Alsacs]

The missing link here is Joseph. He should be a solid contributor this year as a top 50 recruit, but for whatever reason it hasn't happened.

The level of scrutiny Joseph gets from the coaching staff and the level Cooney gets are day and night apart.

Now none of us are at practice but is is just crazy how little PT Joseph as gotten. If he can't play PG then let him play SG with G on the floor. We don't see that because Cooney gets all the SG minutes. If Joseph is a combo guard that is gine but he doesn't get PT to show it and if he makes one bad mistake he goes to the bench.
Trevor Cooney is not a superstar he should not be getting superstar minutes. Give more Guard minutes to Howard/Joseph from Cooney's 38.2 mpg.

 

[Alsacs]

Agreed. The lack of quality lead guard on this team to free Gbinije up to concentrate on scoring is really hurting this team. Joseph's regression is puzzling, given what JB had to say about his offseason. And us not having force fed either Joseph or Howard lots of developmental PT this preseason isn't going to help correct that problem.

Why can't Joseph play with G? We rarely see them as the 2 guards on the floor.

When have we seen the lineup G-Joseph-Richardson-Roberson-Lydon/Coleman on the floor for 4-5 minutes against Wisconsin/Gtown/St.Johns?

 

[Melancer46]

Very true. And a slight dropoff is to be expected as the player draws more concerted defensive attention.

The issue is a guy like Triche who is a four year stater dropping to 27% [or whatever] his senior year. Saw the same thing with CJ Fair, who was the ultimate complimentary shooter as a junior [hitting nearly 50% of his threes], but dropping to ~29% as a senior forced to carry the team.

I think that's why people are scratching their heads. We know that these players are capable of doing better, but they are dropping off of a cliff when it comes to shooting percentages.

CJ was never a good 3 point shooter IMO. He could make them when left completely unguarded, but that was it. Outside of the one flukey year (and he never shot many 3's so his sample sizes were always relatively small), CJ shot 27% from 3 for his career. He was a poor 3 point shooter every season except the one, and in that year, he was a streaky shooter on low volume.

If I remember it correctly, Triche had serious back issues his last year that clearly took its toll on him, and I think that was also the case with Cooney last year as the year went on. But yeah, there is definitely a noticeable trend regarding players regressing in terms of shooting %'s.