Zion

[tbonezone]

let's be fair. couple of our all-time great high draft picks packed on a few pounds. let's not judge.

 

[MSOrange]

I have to own being wrong about Zion. Thought he would be great in the NBA, but I overestimated his ability to give a crap.

 

[cayugacuse]

Neworleans thought they were lucky when they got him...cant blame em...but wow they were wrong on that one.

Reminds me of Porzingis with the Knicks to a degree.

 

[Ghost]

Lindor is a bad example because he was an all-star with Cleveland before the trade with the Mets. Now, if you want to say they should have given him an incentive laden contract, that's a different argument. But, to knock them for paying him only on potential fails to recognize his past performance, which was the basis for his contract. Rookie contracts are speculative by definition.

Mmmmmm, Lindor.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

let's be fair. couple of our all-time great high draft picks packed on a few pounds. let's not judge.

I've packed on a few pounds, I'm judgin'.

 

[orangecuse]

Lindor is a bad example because he was an all-star with Cleveland before the trade with the Mets. Now, if you want to say they should have given him an incentive laden contract, that's a different argument. But, to knock them for paying him only on potential fails to recognize his past performance, which was the basis for his contract. Rookie contracts are speculative by definition.

Yeah, I’m well aware of what Lindor did in Cleveland as a life long Cleveland fan. I agree, I should have written a better/clearer response.

Lindor, as with numerous others, sign these ridiculous type contracts, and usually never live up (produce) to, or even close to, what was anticipated. So yeah, IMO these contracts should be weighted heavily on productivity, etc. IMO, it’s a joke and complete lunacy. There’s not really much “incentive” when the majority of the coin received will result anyways whether they produce (to the contract level) or not.

Regardless of his batting average, Lindor remains one of the five best shortstops in MLB. Whether that is worth $340 million is certainly debatable, but batting average is a poor indicator of a player's contribution.

100% your opinion relative to your top 5 sentiment.

I doubt very much that the Mets, when they signed Lindor, expected him to bat .230 his 1st season and .213 currently in his 3rd.

He’s a lead off/higher in lineup batter, so his contribution is quite unsatisfactory on that front, regardless of what other contributions he makes at short. I’ve seen a lot of routine, ordinary type fielding plays from him, especially at the major league level, nothing extraordinary IMO.

 

[atlanticuse]

Yeah, I’m well aware of what Lindor did in Cleveland as a life long Cleveland fan. I agree, I should have written a better/clearer response.

Lindor, as with numerous others, sign these ridiculous type contracts, and usually never live up (produce) to, or even close to, what was anticipated. So yeah, IMO these contracts should be weighted heavily on productivity, etc. IMO, it’s a joke and complete lunacy. There’s not really much “incentive” when the majority of the coin received will result anyways whether they produce (to the contract level) or not.
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I doubt very much that the Mets, when they signed Lindor, expected him to bat .230 his 1st season and .213 currently in his 3rd.

He’s a lead off/higher in lineup batter, so his contribution is quite unsatisfactory on that front, regardless of what other contributions he makes at short. I’ve seen a lot of routine, ordinary type fielding plays from him, especially at the major league level, nothing extraordinary IMO.

Look at Texas. They signed two of the best offensive shortstops - Semien and Seager - who both had dud years last year.

Fast-forward to now. They're good, and the team is good. Win-win.

I'm willing to give Lindor - and Pujols and others - a year or two of respite, but the fact is that they really sucked balls. Others have been better; but also, neither has Soto (although he's come on of late). Not to mention injury-prone pitchers, like Texas' own Jacob deGrom.

We'll see if contracts signed by Julio Rodriguez (SEA) and a host of the Atlanta contracts by the young players (pending they don't pout and sit out and make a fuss like NFL/NBA players often do) are the wave of the future.

But, again, back to my fantasy team example (a HARD cap rather than the nonsense soft luxury tax one) - if you overpay for older players, you won't be able to pay and keep the younger ones. And look at "new" baseball - the teams with the young, fast, athletic talent are winning this year.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I think Zion needs to do much more during the season than he has ever done with regard to conditioning and maintenance. Stretching, Weights, hydration, cardio. I think he got himself into really good shape prior to the season but once he starts playing basketball not sure if he is really been doing a whole lot more. CJ McCollum has been pretty vocal about all of this from the minute the season ended. We shall see, odds are definitely against this ending well. Damn shame because I do think when healthy he is a top 10 NBA player. He was a one man wrecking crew in the month of December last year which is amazing considering how little basketball he has actually played the past 3-4 years.

 

[donniesyracuse]

100% your opinion relative to your top 5 sentiment.

Top five in Fangraphs' WAR this season.

 

[littlereg]

Top five in Fangraphs' WAR this season.

I’d argue This tells more about the state of the position than lindor. Go look at almost all of lindors batting metrics. They’re the worst, if not the second worst in almost every single category for his career. The only thing keeping lindors numbers up are his defensive metrics, particularly his DRS and UZR. Lindor gets all the hate he rightfully deserves for the money he is paid and the way he acts.

 

[donniesyracuse]

They’re the worst, if not the second worst in almost every single category for his career.

That is mostly correct. 2022 was a pretty good offensive year. His WRC+ since joining the Mets:

2021: 103 (worst of his career)
2022: 127 (second best of his career)
2023 [334 plate appearances]: 107 (third worst of his career)

 

[atlanticuse]

Top five in Fangraphs' WAR this season.

link broken

 

[donniesyracuse]

link broken

View attachment 228891

Weird! The link works for me. Here is the gist.

I apologize. He actually drops to 7th when you extend it to beyond just "qualifiers." Perdomo and Seager have accumulated more WAR despite far fewer at-bats.

 

[atlanticuse]

Weird! The link works for me. Here is the gist.

View attachment 228893
I apologize. He actually drops to 7th when you extend it to beyond just "qualifiers." Perdomo and Seager have accumulated more WAR despite far fewer at-bats.

someone in my fantasy league dropped Seager (among others) ... I picked him up when he was on the DL ... he's been en fuego.

 

[Scott11]

To demonstrate what an SU recruiting whore I am I thought this thread would be about Zion Cruz.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I don’t want to come off as too arrogant but I’m rarely this correct.

But I was on this one almost since his first game at Duke.

 

[two3zone]

I don’t want to come off as too arrogant but I’m rarely this correct.

But I was on this one almost since his first game at Duke.

Bet he swims in a kiddy pool of gravy every chance he gets.

 

[DoctorBombay]

let's be fair. couple of our all-time great high draft picks packed on a few pounds. let's not judge.

Just because a couple of our guys did it as well, doesn't mean we shouldn't tell it like it is.
DC for one, was notorious for not living up to his true potential in the nba, work ethic or not. There's loads of examples in all sports of guys who "ate themselves" out of a career. So, yeah...I'm judging.