2016 Yankees

[bpo57]

He wasn't exactly chopped liver in 14/15. He is quite durable and if he remains so, will likely roll past 3000 hits in the next 5 years. He also is an excellent fielder in terms of modern defensive metrics. Cano very well could end up as one of top 5 or 6 second basemen of all time. That should be enough to get him in.

Those stats in 2014 and 2015 were not really representative of a HoFer in his prime years. Your point assumes no drop off here from 34 to 39. That's quite possible but if there is any material drop off in those later years then it might be tough. My main point is that while odds are in his favor it's nowhere near a lock at this point in time.

 

[br801]

160 hits per year for the next 5 years gets him to 3000 at age 38; that's not an unreasonable expectation, IMO. And by the way, he had an OPS+ of 142 in 2014 and 117 in 2015; if you think that is not representative of a top second baseman, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[bpo57]

160 hits per year for the next 5 years gets him to 3000 at age 38; that's not an unreasonable expectation, IMO. And by the way, he had an OPS+ of 142 in 2014 and 117 in 2015; if you think that is not representative of a top second baseman, I don't know what to tell you.

No doubt 3000 would probably lock it up. His OPS #s for 2014/2015 (slightly over .800) were fine but not really HoF worthy. I don't think voters just compare his stats to all other second baseman. They'll compare him to the field at large too.

 

[kirbivore]

Let's all root for the Mariners. Haven't been to playoffs since 2001.

whomever is playing Boston or the Mets

 

[br801]

No doubt 3000 would probably lock it up. His OPS #s for 2014/2015 (slightly over .800) were fine but not really HoF worthy. I don't think voters just compare his stats to all other second baseman. They'll compare him to the field at large too.

Why wouldn't he be evaluated as a second baseman offensively, since that's what he is? FWIW, his offensive numbers do compare favorably to a lot of top corner outfielders and first basemen. Look at the second basemen already in the HoF and give me a list of those who were better offensive players than Cano. I think the list will be pretty short.

 

[bpo57]

Why wouldn't he be evaluated as a second baseman offensively, since that's what he is? FWIW, his offensive numbers do compare favorably to a lot of top corner outfielders and first basemen. Look at the second basemen already in the HoF and give me a list of those who were better offensive players than Cano. I think the list will be pretty short.

View attachment 76861

YOU feel he should be judged in comparison to other second basemen. I'm telling you I think there will be many writers that won't do that. Plenty of these guys use certain benchmarks (hits, HRs, RBIs, postseason success, etc.) to define HoF worthiness. Either way there is no set criteria that says he should only be compared to second basemen. If he doesn't breach 3,000 or 400 then he may not get in even though he compares very favorably to second basemen overall.

 

[kirbivore]

as much as I love to bash Girardi, he can't over manage too much when getting shut out 3 nights in a row.

 

[br801]

YOU feel he should be judged in comparison to other second basemen. I'm telling you I think there will be many writers that won't do that. Plenty of these guys use certain benchmarks (hits, HRs, RBIs, postseason success, etc.) to define HoF worthiness. Either way there is no set criteria that says he should only be compared to second basemen. If he doesn't breach 3,000 or 400 then he may not get in even though he compares very favorably to second basemen overall.

If a lot of voters looked primarily at offensive production regardless of position, guys like Rocky Colavito, Dave Parker, Carlos Delgado and Fred McGriff would already be in, and many of the middle infielders and catchers now in the HoF would never have been enshrined.

 

[bpo57]

If a lot of voters looked primarily at offensive production regardless of position, guys like Rocky Colavito, Dave Parker, Carlos Delgado and Fred McGriff would already be in, and many of the middle infielders and catchers now in the HoF would never have been enshrined.

Lousy examples. None of those guys have even 2,500 hits let alone 3,000. Their offensive production alone wasn't worthy. It might be unfair but a lot of the basis for being in the HoF is stat compilation. In the modern era you if you don't have 3,000 and or 400 then it's highly unlikely you're getting into the HoF unless you're a catcher or spectacular middle infielder (looking at you Ozzie Smith).

Cano is on track to make the HoF if he has a few more years like this one. But he still has some wood to chop. If he falls short of 3,000 and 400 then I don't think he's getting in. What are the intangibles that overcome that deficiency?

 

[br801]

Lousy examples. None of those guys have even 2,500 hits let alone 3,000. Their offensive production alone wasn't worthy. It might be unfair but a lot of the basis for being in the HoF is stat compilation. In the modern era you if you don't have 3,000 and or 400 then it's highly unlikely you're getting into the HoF unless you're a catcher or spectacular middle infielder (looking at you Ozzie Smith).

Cano is on track to make the HoF if he has a few more years like this one. But he still has some wood to chop. If he falls short of 3,000 and 400 then I don't think he's getting in. What are the intangibles that overcome that deficiency?

I disagree with most of that, bpo. But to answer your last question, Cano is a well above average defender. That, coupled with his offensive production, which is among the greatest of any second baseman to ever play the game, will get him in. And he arguably has already done enough to warrant inclusion.

And in case you believe I'm just a crazy Yankee fan who believes every good Yankee player belongs, you'd be wrong. Of some recent Yankees whose careers are open to HoF debate, I'd vote no on Munson, Mattingly, Pettitte, Williams and Posada, and yes on Mussina.

 

[bpo57]

I disagree with most of that, bpo. But to answer your last question, Cano is a well above average defender. That, coupled with his offensive production, which is among the greatest of any second baseman to ever play the game, will get him in. And he arguably has already done enough to warrant inclusion.

And in case you believe I'm just a crazy Yankee fan who believes every good Yankee player belongs, you'd be wrong. Of some recent Yankees whose careers are open to HoF debate, I'd vote no on Munson, Mattingly, Pettitte, Williams and Posada, and yes on Mussina.

Mussina to me is borderline. Tough call. The rest of them, no. Too bad because Mattingly and Munson were HoF caliber players. I hated to see Munson come to the plate in any big spot. The guy was lethal.

Not sure which part you disagree with because those other players (Colavito et al) cited did not do enough to warrant inclusion.

I acknowledge Cano is certainly on track but he has more to do. You say he's done enough already and I say no way. If he kind of steadily fizzled out from here such that he had 2,700 hits and 320 HRs then he's less than 50/50 to get in.

 

[donniesyracuse]

This does not really pertain to the Cano/Hall of Fame discussion, but the American League is full of excellent offensive second basemen right now. Starlin Castro, with 21 HR, is one of the worst offensive second baseman in the AL. Times have certainly changed.

 

[br801]

Mussina to me is borderline. Tough call. The rest of them, no. Too bad because Mattingly and Munson were HoF caliber players. I hated to see Munson come to the plate in any big spot. The guy was lethal.

Not sure which part you disagree with because those other players (Colavito et al) cited did not do enough to warrant inclusion.

I acknowledge Cano is certainly on track but he has more to do. You say he's done enough already and I say no way. If he kind of steadily fizzled out from here such that he had 2,700 hits and 320 HRs then he's less than 50/50 to get in.

I disagree with you that it's mostly offensive production (and particularly cumulative numbers) that gets you in at most positions. I don't think it's ever been that way, and it's certainly not that way now, with more voters being nuanced in their evaluations. Just look at some of the players already in the HoF.

And I wasn't making a case for those guys I cited previously, but look at what they did accomplish offensively when you get a chance; one certainly could make a legitimate case for some of them, as they do measure up to many players at their position who have gotten in.

 

[br801]

This does not really pertain to the Cano/Hall of Fame discussion, but the American League is full of excellent offensive second basemen right now. Starlin Castro, with 21 HR, is one of the worst offensive second baseman in the AL. Times have certainly changed.

No doubt the middle infield positions have become filled by bigger and better offensive players in the modern era.

That said, Cano still stands out to me historically.

 

[bpo57]

I disagree with you that it's mostly offensive production (and particularly cumulative numbers) that gets you in at most positions. I don't think it's ever been that way, and it's certainly not that way now, with more voters being nuanced in their evaluations. Just look at some of the players already in the HoF.

And I wasn't making a case for those guys I cited previously, but look at what they did accomplish offensively when you get a chance; one certainly could make a legitimate case for some of them, as they do measure up to many players at their position who have gotten in.

I did look at their stats. Not one of them crossed 2500 hits. And I never said defense wasn't considered as my reference to offense was more about achieving certain benchmarks. That is borne out in who is in and who is not. Defense definitely should be considered and that certainly works in Cano's favor. As does his all out hustle on the bases and in the field.

 

[br801]

I did look at their stats. Not one of them crossed 2500 hits. And I never said defense wasn't considered as my reference to offense was more about achieving certain benchmarks. That is borne out in who is in and who is not. Defense definitely should be considered and that certainly works in Cano's favor. As does his all out hustle on the bases and in the field.

Since when did 2500 hits become a requirement for the HoF? Lots of players are in with far fewer. Anyway, Parker had 2712 hits and McGriff 2490, so as usual you are blowing hot air.

 

[bpo57]

Since when did 2500 hits become a requirement for the HoF? Lots of players are in with far fewer. Anyway, Parker had 2712 hits and McGriff 2490, so as usual you are blowing hot air.

My bad on Parker. The other guys didn't cross the 2500 mark, like I said. Nothing magical about that mark but in the modern era you can name the # of guys that are in with less than 2500 hits on one hand. And of those one was a catcher and the other had more than 500 HRs.

 

[br801]

My bad on Parker. The other guys didn't cross the 2500 mark, like I said. Nothing magical about that mark but in the modern era you can name the # of guys that are in with less than 2500 hits on one hand. And of those one was a catcher and the other had more than 500 HRs.

It looks like 2000 hits may be the unofficial requirement for the modern era.

Of players in the HoF who played primarily after 1960, a quick check shows these players had fewer than 2500 hits (but all had at least 2000):

• Stargell
• McCovey
• Cepeda
• Thomas
• Smith
• Rice
• Sandberg
• Larkin
• Puckett
• Bench
• Mazeroski
• Santo
• Schmidt
• Piazza
• Carter
• Fisk

Jeff Bagwell (2314 hits) should be joining the group in 2017.

 

[bpo57]

It looks like 2000 hits may be the unofficial requirement for the modern era.

Of players in the HoF who played primarily after 1960, a quick check shows these players had fewer than 2500 hits (but all had at least 2000):

• Stargell
• McCovey
• Cepeda
• Thomas
• Smith
• Rice
• Sandberg
• Larkin
• Puckett
• Bench
• Mazeroski
• Santo
• Schmidt
• Piazza
• Carter
• Fisk

Jeff Bagwell (2314 hits) should be joining the group in 2017.

Sorry I should have put a finer point on what I meant by modern era. My intention was not to include guys that played in the 60s and 70s because they played in an era where the offensive stats were far short of what goes on today. Bob Gibson had a 1.13 ERA and Yaz won a batting title at .301. So if you took those guys out as well as the catchers then you'd be left with Smith, Rice, Sandberg, Larkin and Puckett. I think we can agree that guys like Maz, Cepeda and Santo would not get in today with their stats.

 

[Chip]

Go celebrate in the clubhouse, not on the field thankfully. Nice send off Tex.

 

[Alsacs]

I just want to thank the New York Yankees for winning that game.

I want to play Cleveland in the ALDS and not get the 1 seed. This loss helps as Texas is losing right now.

Thanks Yankees.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

A walk off grand slam Teix message.

Of all the dramatic things...

 

[Briancuse]

Go celebrate in the clubhouse, not on the field thankfully. Nice send off Tex.

If only he could have hit some hrs when the season mattered.

 

[bpo57]

I just want to thank the New York Yankees for winning that game.

I want to play Cleveland in the ALDS and not get the 1 seed. This loss helps as Texas is losing right now.

Thanks Yankees.

Whipped cream on top of horsesheet. Losing like that blows.

I don't trust Kimbrel. People like to ridicule Papelbon but when he had his stuff he came right after you. He never walked guys, you had to beat him, which didn't happen very often. No nibbling like Kimbrel did against Sanchez.

 

[Alsacs]

Whipped cream on top of horsesheet. Losing like that blows.

I don't trust Kimbrel. People like to ridicule Papelbon but when he had his stuff he came right after you. He never walked guys, you had to beat him, which didn't happen very often. No nibbling like Kimbrel did against Sanchez.

Meh i honestly don't care about the loss the division was the objective. Kimbrel gagged and has had blowups. I hope the Yankees can sneak in as they are less or a threat than the other teams.
The loss helps keep the Yankees within range of Baltimore. I don't want to play the wild card winner. The rangers are tanking and this loss helps keep them in front.
Texas is Losing to a crap Brewers team at home again. Need to play Cleveland as Salazar and Carcasco are out and Kluber is hurt. The Cleveland matchup is the objective. Losing may suck in the moment But for the playoffs it was fine and Kimbrel has been good the last month.