ACC Brand - Refs - Protecting the Brand

[Scooch]

Depends on the conspiracy theory. And I made it clear that this was no plot. Sadly, there are a lot more conspiracies than we would like to believe.

I think there are a ton of horrific plans that are hatched in plain sight. I think there are far fewer "conspiracies" than people think. At scale anyway. Anyone who's worked for a corporation or government knows that keeping secrets is next to impossible. Hiding things in plain sight is far easier.

 

[Cuseregular]

Where was the bias vs NC State then?

Or did the ACC decide the fix was in our favor for that game...only to screw us vs Clemson?

refresh my memory, as the board might recall my lament, missed most of the game due to a wedding.

 

[dasher]

I think there are a ton of horrific plans that are hatched in plain sight. I think there are far fewer "conspiracies" than people think. At scale anyway. Anyone who's worked for a corporation or government knows that keeping secrets is next to impossible. Hiding things in plain sight is far easier.

Well, I worked in a fairly high position for a corporation and you wouldn't know what is kept secret would you? It was kept secret. It's not impossible. Sometimes it takes years to find things out. But once again, it wasn't like that. Just the right guys assigned to the game.

 

[djcon57]

refresh my memory, as the board might recall my lament, missed most of the game due to a wedding.

A TD went our way on an obvious illegal shift where the ref pulled his flag OUT OF HIS POCKET, then put it back in. Can you IMAGINE if that happened in this game vs Clemson?

 

[RF2044]

I don't think there any concerted effort to harm certain schools, but preferential treatment is certainly applied. I'll never forget the first ACCT, when the GT fan sitting next to us [paraphrasing] welcomed us to the conference, and told us that we needed to get prepared to get screwed over by the Carolina-centric bias.

I've seen that bias applied at key inflection points in games, in such a way that they've had a massive influence. The OL downfield call when we picked up the first down against Clemson in 2018. The call this year. The secondary offensive foul call against CJ Fair @ Duke.

Is there some secret memo that goes out, with the ACC Illuminati pulling ref puppet strings? Of course not.

But Carolina-centric bias [borrowing again from the warning provided by the GT fan] -- yup.

 

[dasher]

Where was the bias vs NC State then?

Or did the ACC decide the fix was in our favor for that game...only to screw us vs Clemson?

There are a ton of differences between the N.C. State game and the Clemson game.

 

[Scooch]

Well, I worked in a fairly high position for a corporation and you wouldn't know what is kept secret would you? It was kept secret. It's not impossible. Sometimes it takes years to find things out. But once again, it wasn't like that. Just the right guys assigned to the game.

Who are these "right guys"?

Seriously, these accusations are so vague it's hard to have a discussion about them.

So there are certain refs who are able to determine who the conference favors, in all circumstances, despite never having an explicit conversation about it? And those refs are assigned to certain games, to influence the outcome, in undetermined ways?

 

[Scooch]

I don't think there any concerted effort to harm certain schools, but preferential treatment is certainly applied. I'll never forget the first ACCT, when the GT fan sitting next to us [paraphrasing] welcomed us to the conference, and told us that we needed to get prepared to get screwed over by the Carolina-centric bias.

I've seen that bias applied at key inflection points in games, in such a way that they've had a massive influence. The OL downfield call when we picked up the first down against Clemson in 2018. The call this year. The secondary offensive foul call against CJ Fair @ Duke.

Is there some secret memo that goes out, with the ACC Illuminati pulling ref puppet strings? Of course not.

But Carolina-centric bias [borrowing again from the warning provided by the GT fan] -- yup.

What is the incentive for refs to influence games in favor of Duke and UNC? What do they get out of it?

 

[djcon57]

There are a ton of differences between the N.C. State game and the Clemson game.

The main one being the calls went our way...so it's ok.

 

[dasher]

Who are these "right guys"?

Seriously, these accusations are so vague it's hard to have a discussion about them.

So there are certain refs who are able to determine who the conference favors, in all circumstances, despite never having an explicit conversation about it? And those refs are assigned to certain games, to influence the outcome, in undetermined ways?

I guess you never saw an nba playoff game. You are right about one thing. It is hard to have a discussion with someone who thinks everything is on the up and up. Having worked on wall st for 40 years, I know they aren't. There is cheating in almost everything that money is involved with. The right gusy are the guys that have a history of siding with southern teams. And if you don't think there is bias like that in this world, good luck to you. I am confidant, the reverse is true.

 

[RF2044]

What is the incentive for refs to influence games in favor of Duke and UNC? What do they get out of it?

I didn't say there was any, and yet it seems to happen over and over again.

I also don't think that I'm going out on a limb when I suggest that a program like Duke benefits from highly preferential officiating at home. Is that debatable?

 

[dasher]

The main one being the calls went our way...so it's ok.

Come on. Stop it. N.C. States season was over when Leery got hurt. The game was at Syracuse. Every game isn't "fixed" and no one is saying they are. But I guess, according to you, there is cheating in nothing. Even though we have cheating in poker and chess and everything else where money is involved.

 

[orangefog]

The main one being the calls went our way...so it's ok.

One could argue, not me of course, because I don't believe that there is a huge conspiracy. But, I do believe Clemson gets preferential treatment. But, one could argue that since Clemson had already disposed of NC State, it would benefit Clemson more to have Syracuse undefeated heading in to their game.

 

[SuFTW]

All you have to do is look who the supervisor of officials is for the ACC and realize there is no conspiracy.

There are certainly good and bad calls, but no conspiracy.

The ACC website says the supervisor of officials is DS Winney, but didn’t provide any other info.

 

[djcon57]

Come on. Stop it. N.C. States season was over when Leery got hurt. The game was at Syracuse. Every game isn't "fixed" and no one is saying they are. But I guess, according to you, there is cheating in nothing. Even though we have cheating in poker and chess and everything else where money is involved.

Has there ever been a game we've won in either basketball or football due to the refs bias?

 

[dasher]

Has there ever been a game we've won in either basketball or football due to the refs bias?

In the old Big East, probably. That isn't to say once again, for the 1000th time, that the ref went in to the game thinking I'm going to screw let's say P.C.. But JB didn't hit with techs that younger less respected coaches did get.

 

[Scooch]

I didn't say there was any, and yet it seems to happen over and over again.

I also don't think that I'm going out on a limb when I suggest that a program like Duke benefits from highly preferential officiating at home. Is that debatable?

I do believe that there is some research that suggests "home town" calls do happen to some degree, and it's ascribed to implicit bias by refs to crowd response. Not to please them necessarily, but that perceived penalty/foul severity and be amplified by crowd noise.

So I buy that Duke benefits from that, and maybe a bit more given the intensity of their crowd.

But, again, I really need to understand how a ref benefits from shaping the outcome of games to favor UNC and Duke. This is basic Human Nature 101 stuff. We all respond to incentives, and the incentives almost always need to be explicit. Are they employed longer? Get paid more? etc.

 

[djcon57]

In the old Big East, probably. That isn't to say once again, for the 1000th time, that the ref went in to the game thinking I'm going to screw let's say P.C.. But JB didn't hit with techs that younger less respected coaches did get

Fair enough.

Long as the argument is consistent, I can understand the logic.

 

[Scooch]

Has there ever been a game we've won in either basketball or football due to the refs bias?

Never.

Seriously, EVERY fan base thinks that (a) refs are biased against them, and (b) the announcing crew favors their opponent.

 

[dasher]

Fair enough.

Long as the argument is consistent, I can understand the logic.

I made more of a post than just that.

 

[Scooch]

In the old Big East, probably. That isn't to say once again, for the 1000th time, that the ref went in to the game thinking I'm going to screw let's say P.C.. But JB didn't hit with techs that younger less respected coaches did get.

Oh please, people here savaged the officiating in games against G'town and UConn everytime we played.

 

[dasher]

I do believe that there is some research that suggests "home town" calls do happen to some degree, and it's ascribed to implicit bias by refs to crowd response. Not to please them necessarily, but that perceived penalty/foul severity and be amplified by crowd noise.

So I buy that Duke benefits from that, and maybe a bit more given the intensity of their crowd.

But, again, I really need to understand how a ref benefits from shaping the outcome of games to favor UNC and Duke. This is basic Human Nature 101 stuff. We all respond to incentives, and the incentives almost always need to be explicit. Are they employed longer? Get paid more? etc.

It would depend on whether the ref thinks ( not actually is) getting more opportunities by having K or Dean think highly of them.

 

[djcon57]

I made more of a post than just that.

Fixed. I replied before you added on.

 

[dasher]

Oh please, people here savaged the officiating in games against G'town and UConn everytime we played.

So what? I was asked if we ever got the benefit of bias and the answer is probably yes. Maybe not against G-town or UConn but the bottom teams. And reading comp. I said P.C. as an example for a reason. I didn't say UConn or G-town for that same reason.

 

[Scooch]

It would depend on whether the ref thinks ( not actually is) getting more opportunities by having K or Dean think highly of them.

That's quite a leap, no?

Back to our game last weekend. You're saying that in the heat of the moment, a sideline judge threw the flag against Fuentes because he *thinks* Dabo would be pleased? And that will help his career?

So it's not about the ACC making money?