Are we the worst P-5 football program?

[GoSU96]

Straight up costs...when I went to a SUNY in late 70s/early 80s it was approximately 45-50% of the cost to attend SU. (Total on campus room and board). Now it is 30%. I think that is driving more kids to public schools. The most prestigious privates can survive off reputation and liberal aid but we are seeing smaller less prestigious private schools shut down with greater frequency.

It doesn't help that it is a credentialing scam funneling public money through student loans to ideological interest groups.

 

[Eric15]

Straight up costs...when I went to a SUNY in late 70s/early 80s it was approximately 45-50% of the cost to attend SU. (Total on campus room and board). Now it is 30%. I think that is driving more kids to public schools. The most prestigious privates can survive off reputation and liberal aid but we are seeing smaller less prestigious private schools shut down with greater frequency.

Yeah as much as I would be cloud nine if my kids were accepted to SU, it just doesn't make sense for them to attend if they aren't getting major aid/scholarships.

 

[PatMark]

The cost issues are also why we don't have the benefit of a strong walk-on program that our public school counterparts do.

 

[Chip]

Everyone seems to drive faster than I do...I think the idea with the regional thing is it's far easier to get the program guys, 5 year players if we had more locally like we used to.

Just stay in the right lane Grandma.

 

[Doc5120]

Yeah, I should’ve said “coming into the season”. Arguably.

Tucker is good, but we’d be better with him, Adams, and Jordan. We lack weapons and playmakers, and 2 of them - probably our most proven one coming into the year(Adams) and probably the most explosive one(Jordan) are out. Think our offense would be somewhat respectable with those guys and DeVito.

No doubt about that! We lack weapons, for sure. I wish Hendrix could get healthy. I like him. Queeley is a good possession guy, but we need more. JJ brings another dynamic to the offense that is seriously lacking. And I think it's pretty obvious we miss Tommy with what we've seen from the QB's. But I think Morgan can be a good player down the road for us. He's just not quite ready yet.

 

[TheHaze315]

i’d rather be us than kansas, but other than that, there’s not too many answers.

 

[GoSU96]

Here is a comparison of the bottom 15 P-5 schools by winning percentage the last 2000-2019. Make of it what you will.

Team	Wins	Losses	Win Seasons	Last Win Season	Dbl Dig Win	Year	Bowl App.	Top 20 Wins	Finished Ranked
Kansas	78​	162​	3​	2008​	1​	2007​	4​	3​	1​
Duke	82​	161​	5​	2018​	1​	2013​	6​	3​	1​
Vandy	87​	155​	3​	2013​	0​		6​	3​	2​
Indiana	88​	152​	2​	2019​	0​		4​	8​	0​
Illinois	91​	151​	4​	2011​	1​	2001​	6​	6​	2​
Colorado	102​	147​	4​	2016​	2​	2016​	6​	15​	3​
Iowa St	106​	142​	8​	2019​	0​		11​	11​	1​
SU	104​	139​	6​	2018​	2​	2018​	6​	13​	2​
UK	107​	138​	9​	2019​	1​	2018​	9​	9​	1​
Rutgers	108​	138​	8​	2014​	1​	2006​	9​	4​	1​
Purdue	110​	138​	8​	2017​	0​		11​	11​	2​
Arizona	112​	133​	8​	2017​	1​	2014​	8​	20​	1​
Wake	115​	131​	9​	2019​	1​	2006​	9​	9​	1​
UVA	117​	132​	8​	2019​	0​		10​	18​	2​
UNC	120​	128​	11​	2019​	1​	2015​	11​	16​	1​

 

[721Comstock]

Here is a comparison of the bottom 15 P-5 schools by winning percentage the last 2000-2019. Make of it what you will.

Team	Wins	Losses	Win Seasons	Last Win Season	Dbl Dig Win	Year	Bowl App.	Top 20 Wins	Finished Ranked
Kansas	78​	162​	3​	2008​	1​	2007​	4​	3​	1​
Duke	82​	161​	5​	2018​	1​	2013​	6​	3​	1​
Vandy	87​	155​	3​	2013​	0​		6​	3​	2​
Indiana	88​	152​	2​	2019​	0​		4​	8​	0​
Illinois	91​	151​	4​	2011​	1​	2001​	6​	6​	2​
Colorado	102​	147​	4​	2016​	2​	2016​	6​	15​	3​
Iowa St	106​	142​	8​	2019​	0​		11​	11​	1​
SU	104​	139​	6​	2018​	2​	2018​	6​	13​	2​
UK	107​	138​	9​	2019​	1​	2018​	9​	9​	1​
Rutgers	108​	138​	8​	2014​	1​	2006​	9​	4​	1​
Purdue	110​	138​	8​	2017​	0​		11​	11​	2​
Arizona	112​	133​	8​	2017​	1​	2014​	8​	20​	1​
Wake	115​	131​	9​	2019​	1​	2006​	9​	9​	1​
UVA	117​	132​	8​	2019​	0​		10​	18​	2​
UNC	120​	128​	11​	2019​	1​	2015​	11​	16​	1​

I’d say Kansas, Vandy, and Illinois are all clearly worse over the past 2 decades.
Indiana avoided this group by virtue of a winning season last year.

UNC is the “one of these things is not like the others” candidate here.
And with their current trajectory, won’t be a Bottom 15 team much longer.

Humorously / ironically - Rutgers’ BEST decade and Syracuse’s WORST decade both occurred during this time.
During which - Rutgers notched a whopping FOUR AP Top-20 wins.
Yay Shady!

 

[sufandu]

Everyone has injuries and opt outs.

That's like saying everybody has body fat. Different teams land in different places along the spectrum. We almost didn't have enough players available last week to be allowed to play. Is it like that for everybody?

 

[TexanMark]

That's like saying everybody has body fat. Different teams land in different places along the spectrum. We almost didn't have enough players available last week to be allowed to play. Is it like that for everybody?

Plus two potential All Americans opted out (Cisco and Williams) and another potential All American has few opportunities to kick field goals (Szymt). This team is dysfunctional yet it could elevate quite easily next Fall to a decent average P5 team.

 

[sufandu]

Plus two potential All Americans opted out (Cisco and Williams) and another potential All American has few opportunities to kick field goals (Szymt). This team is dysfunctional yet it could elevate quite easily next Fall to decent average P5 team.

Yeah. It seems like every week people get more frustrated as if they expect something to change this year. No change is coming until next year when we have, hopefully, a normal off season and, again hopefully, get and keep key guys healthy.

 

[TexanMark]

Yeah. It seems like every week people get more frustrated as if they expect something to change this year. No change is coming until next year when we have, hopefully, a normal off season and, again hopefully, get and keep key guys healthy.

Agreed, I figure we have about a 10% chance for an upset on Saturday. I expect we'll be 1-10 this year. Hopefully we get to 7-5 next year. I want to see Dino succeed.

 

[Cuse#1]

No overall am I opinion Kansas is

 

[Cuse#1]

As the ACC revenue continues to increase I could see Vanderbilt joining the ACC with Notre Dame. Vanderbilt’s academic profile is similar to other ACC schools. From a football standpoint Vanderbilt would be much more competitive in the ACC as well.

I could see that and I think Vanderbilt could definitely compete more in the ACC than in the SEC but do you really think they would do that with the financial gap that there is right now and probably continue to be.
Now I completely agree with you everything about Vanderbilt, definitely seems to fit more in the ACC but I just don’t know if they would make that jump. Notre Dame for that matter they should because they’re having a great season right now and both them and Clemson could definitely be in the playoff so hopefully that will change their mind about this whole independent crap!!!

 

[SWC75]

Yeah. It seems like every week people get more frustrated as if they expect something to change this year. No change is coming until next year when we have, hopefully, a normal off season and, again hopefully, get and keep key guys healthy.

I think virtually everybody was down with this season being a pass for everybody hen the season started. (I still am.) But we found losing hurts just as much and we have been doing almost nothing else while other schools have been able to win so our patience has been drained and grumbling has been raised to a din.

 

[Orangello]

Here is a comparison of the bottom 15 P-5 schools by winning percentage the last 2000-2019. Make of it what you will.

Team	Wins	Losses	Win Seasons	Last Win Season	Dbl Dig Win	Year	Bowl App.	Top 20 Wins	Finished Ranked
Kansas	78​	162​	3​	2008​	1​	2007​	4​	3​	1​
Duke	82​	161​	5​	2018​	1​	2013​	6​	3​	1​
Vandy	87​	155​	3​	2013​	0​		6​	3​	2​
Indiana	88​	152​	2​	2019​	0​		4​	8​	0​
Illinois	91​	151​	4​	2011​	1​	2001​	6​	6​	2​
Colorado	102​	147​	4​	2016​	2​	2016​	6​	15​	3​
Iowa St	106​	142​	8​	2019​	0​		11​	11​	1​
SU	104​	139​	6​	2018​	2​	2018​	6​	13​	2​
UK	107​	138​	9​	2019​	1​	2018​	9​	9​	1​
Rutgers	108​	138​	8​	2014​	1​	2006​	9​	4​	1​
Purdue	110​	138​	8​	2017​	0​		11​	11​	2​
Arizona	112​	133​	8​	2017​	1​	2014​	8​	20​	1​
Wake	115​	131​	9​	2019​	1​	2006​	9​	9​	1​
UVA	117​	132​	8​	2019​	0​		10​	18​	2​
UNC	120​	128​	11​	2019​	1​	2015​	11​	16​	1​

Interesting that there are 5 current ACC teams on that list followed by BiG with 4.

 

[cuse309]

No.
Let’s not do this pity party.

What do they call the person ranked last in a graduating class every year?
A graduate.
Who cares.

Yeah, but the team that finishes last isn't called good, or even decent, or mediocre. You're called awful. That's not a very good comparison.

 

[kcsu]

Im so sick and tired of the NY has no talent crap. BC Pstate Maryland Rutgers Army Navy WVU Buffalo Pittsburgh ND Ohio State ect... All land players from NY.
There are plenty of schools that are Geographically challenged from a recruiting standpoint.
One again that is the NUMBER 1 winning season in 5 isn't based on SU being located in NYS.

 

[TheCusian]

Not talking about this year in isolation necessarily, but rather, more broadly.

Serious question...i think the answer may very well be yes. I think there are other programs in the discussion. But I am having a hard time definitively saying we are not.

Suddenly, a lot of the other conference doormats all still look better.

Kansas may be the only program I can make the confident case for.

No. Kansas, Rutgers are both worse over the past ten years.

Adding in this season is silly. How do you deal with opt outs in a pandemic?

 

[MSOrange]

No. Kansas, Rutgers are both worse over the past ten years.

Adding in this season is silly. How do you deal with opt outs in a pandemic?

Well the opt outs probably won't be back next season, so I guess we can throw out next season in your world also, right?

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

No. Kansas, Rutgers are both worse over the past ten years.

Adding in this season is silly. How do you deal with opt outs in a pandemic?

Recruit better? Have more depth?

 

[syrBossHogg]

I think since P was fired SU has become one of the worst P5 programs. The school just didn't want to invest what was necessary to stay relevant in not only the Big East/ACC, but college football in general. I wasn't a huge Marrone fan, but the fact he couldn't get an adequate IPF while he was here was shameful. These past few years are the most I've ever seen the school invest in the program since I started following the team nearly 20 years ago. That helps both Dino or the possible future head coach.

 

[orlandoorange]

This shows me that with the right leadership this program can be at a minimum competitive, and that bad decisions and management by the AD dept can crater the performance of the program.

P, Marrone, Babers (putting aside this years disaster) 80-79, the other guys 24-60.

When you have a coach in place that has proven he can do it, support that coach, don't cut and run and think change for change sake is going to lead to better results.

Stablity and resources, dispassionate assessment, not chasing results, is the way to go.

I agree with this completely, though I would add that coaching staffs can make bad decisions as well.

That's the part that concerns me most with our current coaching team. I don't know anything that goes on behind the scenes but I would assume that if we had a great group of coaches, some would be poached away by the schools that we say we can't compete against in $. Aside from Lewis, have we lost any coaches in the last 5 years?

 

[MSOrange]

I agree with this completely, though I would add that coaching staffs can make bad decisions as well.

That's the part that concerns me most with our current coaching team. I don't know anything that goes on behind the scenes but I would assume that if we had a great group of coaches, some would be poached away by the schools that we say we can't compete against in $. Aside from Lewis, have we lost any coaches in the last 5 years?

Mike Hart went to coach running backs at Indiana but that's the only one I can think of.

 

[elimunelson]

Here is a comparison of the bottom 15 P-5 schools by winning percentage the last 2000-2019. Make of it what you will.

Team	Wins	Losses	Win Seasons	Last Win Season	Dbl Dig Win	Year	Bowl App.	Top 20 Wins	Finished Ranked
Kansas	78​	162​	3​	2008​	1​	2007​	4​	3​	1​
Duke	82​	161​	5​	2018​	1​	2013​	6​	3​	1​
Vandy	87​	155​	3​	2013​	0​		6​	3​	2​
Indiana	88​	152​	2​	2019​	0​		4​	8​	0​
Illinois	91​	151​	4​	2011​	1​	2001​	6​	6​	2​
Colorado	102​	147​	4​	2016​	2​	2016​	6​	15​	3​
Iowa St	106​	142​	8​	2019​	0​		11​	11​	1​
SU	104​	139​	6​	2018​	2​	2018​	6​	13​	2​
UK	107​	138​	9​	2019​	1​	2018​	9​	9​	1​
Rutgers	108​	138​	8​	2014​	1​	2006​	9​	4​	1​
Purdue	110​	138​	8​	2017​	0​		11​	11​	2​
Arizona	112​	133​	8​	2017​	1​	2014​	8​	20​	1​
Wake	115​	131​	9​	2019​	1​	2006​	9​	9​	1​
UVA	117​	132​	8​	2019​	0​		10​	18​	2​
UNC	120​	128​	11​	2019​	1​	2015​	11​	16​	1​

I honestly don't think we talk enough about the fact that we're in the wrong conference for our football program. It's a double edged sword because we HAVE to be in this conference financially but it's not the same league for us anymore. We would be much better constituted in a conference (or division) with Pitt, BC, Rutgers, WVU, Uconn, Maryland. The old eastern independents are our peer schools.

The way it's set up is very hard for us to gain momentum when we're playing either FSU or Clemson yearly as a top 5 team. The other division has not had that type of dominance at all at the top. Certainly prior to us coming into the ACC it was way down (BC and WF had runs at the top).

I really hope at some point the ACC is re-aligned geographically because it would be a good first step. I'd personally prefer the conferences to re-allign so that we were playing Rutgers, WVU and Uconn yearly again. It meant more than NC State and WF. i'm prob yelling at clouds but that's how I would like it.