Army Gameday...

[SkyTopBus44]

The overreaction on both sides, yikes...

Aren't game threads for overreactions?

 

[JeremyCuse]

Aren't game threads for overreactions?

LOL they are for me

 

[SkyTopBus44]

LOL they are for me

Me 2!

My wife would rather not listen to me complain nor would she get what I am complaining about. Syracusefan.com shows me that there are others out there like me who really care (maybe too much sometimes) about Syracuse lacrosse.

I enjoy all posts the overreactions and the calming posts

 

[JeremyCuse]

Might recall me thinking a 1-3 start was likely given first four opponents so it's not a shocker . Use of current depth is only as helpful as talent of current depth and therein lies one current problem. Execution can affected by tiredness . Thought some offensive players were slowing in 4q after fast starts but can't take best off in 4q, maybe need to give them a few minutes off in 2nd and 3rd to help keep fresh. Facing Army on short rest didnt help and neither will facing a solid Hobart on three days.

Agreed 100%, it was clear that SU looked worn down midway through the 4th, Phaup clearly and several offensive players as well. The backup offensive talent may not be up to par but we have to give these guys some additional run especially when they seem to be producing when given a chance ie Corsi, Fiorini etc. As you also noted the schedule set up works if this is 2020 or 2015 but not with this team, was asking for trouble.

 

[ivorytower]

Yeah I don’t know about that. Maybe army’s defense threw syracuse off because they run 3 high and 2 close. They cover the crease guy with one of the two close defenders on a string. It’s a defense that we should have exploited but we didn’t. Our crease guy is open several times and we don’t even look at him, which further confounds me on what exactly we we’re looking for out of this man up.

After watching it a few times now I can see what our rotation is and what we’re trying to do. It’s weak sauce. Not a fan. We should have scored vs that man down alignment.

Said that Aburn has unreal hands near crease and he has been productive whenever seen in scrimmages. Isn't a threat to dodge and production came agaisnt subs but maybe his specific strength of catching and converting near crease could be occasionally used agaisnt certain d alignments or man up? Again at disadvantage in penalties, 5 to 2 this game 21 to 12 on season , same disadvantage as last year so far and some penalties again due to lack of discipline, being three men down brought back bad memories of Gtown game Of our 12 man ups we have converted only twice which is a paltry 17%. Also find it odd that Kennedy leads the team in drawing 4 penalties by opponents rather than a offensive player. Not sure why not drawing more or why man up is struggling to convert when we do. In Donahue's last year man up was at 49%, last year at 44% , maybe its the defenses we've faced or missing Refhuss/Hiltz but maybe man up unit needs subtle tinkering.

 

[Powellfan]

I am a bit late to the party here. Couldn't watch the game live, thought I had all notifications on my phone turned off, but somehow I managed to see the result before watching the game. Probably for the best as having a few hours to process that loss was better than trying to sleep right after. Just a very frustrating performance all around. If Syracuse plays like they did in the second and third quarters, they look like they could go against just about anyone. But those first and fourth quarters were just atrocious. I don't think I'm exaggerating to say the fourth was one of the worst quarters of lacrosse I've seen from an Orange squad. Top to bottom just ugly.

Zone defenses shouldn't be that hard to break down, but this offense is struggling with simple pass and catch. Balls are almost never meeting a player's stick where they don't have to bend or jump to receive a pass. Very simple stuff. I find it hard to say that's the coaching staffs fault, but when an entire team is struggling with fundamentals this sort of stuff falls on the coaches feet. Like clearing, turnovers and penalties, most of these things I blame on coaches. And they have been bad, bad, bad for three games now. Gait keeps talking about execution, but it's just not happening. At some point the staff needs to try something different, and I'm not sure what that is. I don't think it comes down to playing different guys, if you are wondering why player X, Y or Z isn't seeing the field, it probably comes down the fact that they aren't doing well in practice.

It seems a little harsh to judge the staff right now after only four games, two in which they were underdogs to the best teams in the country, but I'm feeling a little underwhelmed right now. I agree with Jeremy that nothing looks different to me. Not the offense and especially not the defense. I know there is a talent vacuum right now but I disagree with those who say this is a rebuilding year. They have two fifth years at attack, two fifth years at midfield, a fifth year at face-off, a sixth year and a fifth year at close defense. The team they just lost to has zero fifth year players. They have three preseason all Americans. I'm not expecting a final four run here, and this schedule is brutal, but the things I see on the field, to me, should be better. They shouldn't be making rudimentary mistakes like this.

 

[CrazyPeople]

They have two fifth years at attack, two fifth years at midfield, a fifth year at face-off, a sixth year and a fifth year at close defense. The team they just lost to has zero fifth year players. They have three preseason all Americans. I'm not expecting a final four run here, and this schedule is brutal, but the things I see on the field, to me, should be better. They shouldn't be making rudimentary mistakes like this.

I agree with this. There IS talent on that field, and it really isn't any less than last year, especially when you consider teams like Army have no 5th or 6th years. Last year wasn't a benchmark by any stretch, but it was better than what we have seen this year, and I'll stand by that statement.

Couple things of note when reading through the gameday comments:

- I am also excited for next years recruiting class, but to think Joey and Co are immediately going to turn this around is far fetched. They will still be natural freshman in a world of 5th and 6th years. Also, recruiting rankings mean nothing. Joey is probably a sure thing as they come, but the rest have everything to prove still.

- If I am Tucker, I am entering the portal. He has one shot left at really making a run and getting to Final 4 weekend. Hop on the Terp train see where that gets you (as much as that pains to say).

- I can see March being out after this year. I think his only real value was ensuring that Spallina signed his NLI given his relationship with the father. There HAS to be head butting between him and Gait. I find it strange that Petro is running the sub box (we've been offsides WAY TOO much this year) and coaching the defense, while we have two offensive coaches running one side of the ball and not helping there.

- Anyone surprised by Gaits lack of involvement in the game clearly never watched the women's team play. It just his style. Guys who played for him in the NLL would tell you the same thing. He is cerebral and tactical but it is all in what leads up to the game. When it comes time for the game, its just go out and play/execute.

 

[PhatOrange]

The zone offense thing was a bit head scratching to. We didn't seem prepared for it, but I've seen some stacked teams with great coaches flummoxed by zones. I think it boils done to the kids not practicing against it enough and then being unsure what to do.

I just don't like the way we attacked it. We appeared to run at it from 2-3-1 and a 2-4 ? 2 high and basically 4 across no one behind. We scored in the 3rd out of the 2-3-1 and it was a really lucky diagonal pass through the zone to Cook on the backside. But generally we just carried and held the ball to long. I'm not a zone busting expert but you really need to keep it hot and probe the soft spots. I like running a 1-4-1 or 2-2-2 against it.

 

[wgdsr]

takes:
- my biggest is even with all the other things that could've been better, man it must've been frustrating for 'cuse fans when up 11-10. sure, they had to dig out of a hole and did well to do so, but it legit should've been 12-6 or so at that point.

players make mistakes, but the 2!!! underhand scoop passes on clears that led to goals should never happen, at least not more than once in a quarter. kennedy's leaving nichtern to double a fading mid at gle was perplexing. and going 3 men down is just not something you can do against a quality opponent. and then cook's shot on the break.

at that point 11-10, feeling i got was the game should've been largely over, and too often that leads to bad outcomes.

and invariably you then get things like a tipped goal, a head scratching call where a player gets a taunting call when his teammate was taken down wwe style with no call, pipes galore, yada.

 

[bjred]

Unfortunately it's painfully obvious that this offense was built around Hiltz running the show. So no surprise that the offense is struggling but last night wasn't about talent difference, it was just plain bad fundamentals. The second quarter gave me hope that it was just a sloppy start but the wheels came off in the second half. Personally I still think the talent isn't as bad as some other think. It's probably not final four level, unless they get a few breaks, but this team has the talent to make it to the tournament. In the end though having elite talent all over the field won't get you anywhere if you can't perform the basics.

Man up needs to be scraped, the slow passes around the outside hoping to get Seebold open isn't working. I think I'd rather watch the rotating triangles again then what we've seen so far this year.

Phaup needs to stay on his feet and not flop to the ground every time someone breathes on him. I'm sure opposing coaches have planted the bug in the refs ears to watch out for it, and it's probably why he's not getting those calls when it actually happens. At the same time though, Savage and/or Fine need to be given some more reps to rest Phaup. Kinda feels like Phaup is taking the same road Williams did a few years ago, rode hard and finished injured.

And the defense still feels the same as the past couple years. Little communication, issues with switching and sliding. Maybe it's just bad habits that Petro is trying to iron out, but so far there doesn't seem to be any change. Did Gavin look alright on the sideline? I was surprised by the switch after he was shelled by Virginia with no change. Thought maybe he was injured or had something nagging him that might have led to him coming out after one quarter. Either way, Thompson looked good and I liked his long clearing passes when guys could get open for them.

I guess we'll see what Sunday brings, hopefully a win.

 

[Powellfan]

- I can see March being out after this year. I think his only real value was ensuring that Spallina signed his NLI given his relationship with the father. There HAS to be head butting between him and Gait.

I was reading over comments pretty quickly last night, but I feel like a few posters made mention to tension between Gait and March. Can someone tell me where they are getting this from? Is this just from watching them on the sidelines? It seems like they are always talking to each other on the sidelines.

 

[ivorytower]

They have been disagreeing about where to go to eat after games

In concert on offensive matters

 

[CrazyPeople]

I was reading over comments pretty quickly last night, but I feel like a few posters made mention to tension between Gait and March. Can someone tell me where they are getting this from? Is this just from watching them on the sidelines? It seems like they are always talking to each other on the sidelines.

It's a lot of people reading between imaginary lines. However, it seems reasonable given all the hype around the style Gait is supposedly bringing to the offensive side of the ball and the fact that March was hired to do things his way too. Add in the part about the offensive looking less than ideal to start this new campaign = rumblings about difference in opinions.

 

[JustSayin]

I'm not so sure about any Gait vs March major disagreements, I'm sure there are some just like in any organization there are spirited discussions with plenty of disagreements ... but in my experience and I'm pretty sure in yours, what the head coach says, goes ... or you go. So at the end of the season I guess we'll see if anyone goes.

Anyway, there are some insightful observations and comments about yesterday's game. I love reading them and they really make me think deeper about the game. The statement about "a rebuilding year" was probably me, I've posted that at least twice. It is not intended to imply that our team lacks talent, there is quite a bit of talent and it usually shows up in the second and third quarters. What I mean about "rebuilding" is twofold:
1. Find the replacements for the cumulative 79 goals that we lost from the loss of the three starting attack from last season. Yes, Hiltz is still on the team ... but not on the field.
2. Find the players that fit Gaits "motion, run and gun or whatever he calls it" offense. The evidence is we still see the 6 on 6 offense sets just like past seasons.

So I'll go out on a limb here ... while there is plenty of talent, I suspect it isn't the right talent and predict that there will be some turnover in order to get the uptempo players Gait is looking for that fits his offense. Suffice it to say that any player or member of the coaching staff that isn't on board, well... you get the idea.

 

[nyclax]

- Anyone surprised by Gaits lack of involvement in the game clearly never watched the women's team play. It just his style. Guys who played for him in the NLL would tell you the same thing. He is cerebral and tactical but it is all in what leads up to the game. When it comes time for the game, its just go out and play/execute.

Again why do we think a style that worked for the women's game will automatically translate to the men? If March is running the offense, and Petro is running the defense, and Gait is not saying or doing anything from the sidelines on gameday, then where does this tactical lead-up materialize? We haven't seen any of the promised creativity or free flow. We've seen little evidence of any tactics offensively beyond "Tucker, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Curry, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Owen, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Griffin, go run into a triple team." Given what we have seen, I think it requires just as much of an assumption to think Gait is heavily involved in gameplanning/tactics as it does to say that he isn't.

 

[JustSayin]

Again why do we think a style that worked for the women's game will automatically translate to the men? If March is running the offense, and Petro is running the defense, and Gait is not saying or doing anything from the sidelines on gameday, then where does this tactical lead-up materialize? We haven't seen any of the promised creativity or free flow. We've seen little evidence of any tactics offensively beyond "Tucker, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Curry, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Owen, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Griffin, go run into a triple team." Given what we have seen, I think it requires just as much of an assumption to think Gait is heavily involved in gameplanning/tactics as it does to say that he isn't.

I think a lot of members are also wondering the same thing ... "where's the beef?" I'm gonna go out on a limb with a saw and speculate here. Gait inheirited a stable of thorobreds that were recruited and taught for a 6 on 6 system, which is now "muscle memory." I suspect it will take some time to convert enough of his players to his system. It certainly appears to be more than 4 games; although, the Holy Cross game did encourage us that the new system was in place. Since I'm in the classroom with many of these kids, I assure you they don't get it after four weeks of classroom and lab work; but eventually they do get it. I think a little patience is in order.

 

[ForCuseSake]

I think a lot of members are also wondering the same thing ... "where's the beef?" I'm gonna go out on a limb with a saw and speculate here. Gait inheirited a stable of thorobreds that were recruited and taught for a 6 on 6 system, which is now "muscle memory." I suspect it will take some time to convert enough of his players to his system. It certainly appears to be more than 4 games; although, the Holy Cross game did encourage us that the new system was in place. Since I'm in the classroom with many of these kids, I assure you they don't get it after four weeks of classroom and lab work; but eventually they do get it. I think a little patience is in order.

I agree that patience is in order.

I wonder how difficult it will be for Gait, or any other college coach, to implement a free flowing (dare I say run n gun) offensive philosophy.. Youth players become so specialized at very young ages in today's game that I think it'll be difficult to find guys with well rounded skills to facilitate that style.

It's probably the thing I hate most about the game today - how over-coached it is and how specialized players become.

Also - Good luck running a fast paced offense without a stable of top notch face off guys or hope the shot clock gets further reduced to 60 (or 45!) seconds.

I really hope Gary is successful in bringing back the traditional Syracuse up tempo style. I think he's facing a strong headwind with how the game is currently taught at the youth/club levels.

 

[JustSayin]

I agree that patience is in order.

I wonder how difficult it will be for Gait, or any other college coach, to implement a free flowing (dare I say run n gun) offensive philosophy.. Youth players become so specialized at very young ages in today's game that I think it'll be difficult to find guys with well rounded skills to facilitate that style.

It's probably the thing I hate most about the game today - how over-coached it is and how specialized players become.

Also - Good luck running a fast paced offense without a stable of top notch face off guys or hope the shot clock gets further reduced to 60 (or 45!) seconds.

I really hope Gary is successful in bringing back the traditional Syracuse up tempo style. I think he's facing a strong headwind with how the game is currently taught at the youth/club levels.

I agree, dealing with this "institutional specialization" is a real issue. While some specialization is needed, i.e. goalie play, there is the opportunity at midfield. And your statement about players "over coached" is spot on. I never thought about it that way before; but that probably explains the many unforced errors. I get to the dome early for every game to watch the team warm up. The passing and catching are excellent in drills. Come game time its like the players are nervous. The more they don't want to make mistakes the more they make. I'm a disciple of John Wooden ... coach in practice then at game time let the players play. Just manage the clock and box. As a former player, the yelling from the sideline never worked with me, so I concluded it doesn't work for others. I'm sure there are many different perspectives here.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Again why do we think a style that worked for the women's game will automatically translate to the men? If March is running the offense, and Petro is running the defense, and Gait is not saying or doing anything from the sidelines on gameday, then where does this tactical lead-up materialize? We haven't seen any of the promised creativity or free flow. We've seen little evidence of any tactics offensively beyond "Tucker, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Curry, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Owen, go dodge. If that doesn't work, Griffin, go run into a triple team." Given what we have seen, I think it requires just as much of an assumption to think Gait is heavily involved in gameplanning/tactics as it does to say that he isn't.

How much of that is personnel though? How much is that due to us no longer having an attack line of dynamic qb type feeders in Hiltz, rehfuss, and scanlan? How much of that is seebold curry and dordevic adjusting to their new roles as primary qbs for the O? How much of this is essentially us using one or more of them to replace the role carved out for hiltz on short notice?

Put it this way, if the attack line under Gait this year was Hiltz rehfuss scanlan with dordy and curry at their natural middie position, would we still just be seeing "hiltz go dodge, rehuss go dodge, if that doesnt work Dordevic go dodge" and still be looking just as stagnant? I highly doubt it. I think it would look similar to the (often but not always) nicely spaced motion O we had in 2021 because that is what that attack line was capable of running. Personnel plays a huge role. Its not just gait already trying and failing to implement his tactics.

 

[SULAXAHOLIC]

I’m not sure I agree with people thinking the offense was built around Hiltz. It would definitely be better with him on the field but he is not a dodger or a facilitator.He is a great passer when someone else is drawing attention but when defenses keyed in on him
last year he tended to go away. His game is alot like Keogh’s look at the difference when he played with someone like Levielle or Nimms vs his Jr and Sr year where Syracuse lacked a true quarterback. Hopefully Spallina is as advertised and the quarterback issue will be solved.I sincerely hope the staff is recruiting Jameson and Brett Bucktooth letting them get away would be a massive disappointment

 

[Cuse All-In]

I’m not sure I agree with people thinking the offense was built around Hiltz. It would definitely be better with him on the field but he is not a dodger or a facilitator.He is a great passer when someone else is drawing attention but when defenses keyed in on him
last year he tended to go away. His game is alot like Keogh’s look at the difference when he played with someone like Levielle or Nimms vs his Jr and Sr year where Syracuse lacked a true quarterback. Hopefully Spallina is as advertised and the quarterback issue will be solved.I sincerely hope the staff is recruiting Jameson and Brett Bucktooth letting them get away would be a massive disappointment

I partially agree with your description of Hiltz but he is more of a facilitator than you say IMO. He is also an elite and very consistent passer and shooter - significantly better than the current crew of Curry and Dordevic etc. Seebold is our most consistent sniper IMO.