Can we change the charge/block foul?

[bballbeadle]

I believe that the charge/block call itself is deeply flawed. They seemed to have changed it with the idea that in 95% of those situation, it will be called a block. But sometimes these calls are so close that even slow mo replay is not able to decide it for sure.

What if it's ALWAYS a block no matter what? Players know they cannot try to stop a drive in that way, especially since when they do someone is almost bound to fall down and the chances of injury are severe.

Anyone have a thought on that?

If they can't change it in a way to make it crystal clear, fans are going to continue to feel robbed. It's not a good dynamic. I know nothing about the game of basketball but it seems the change to this rule and the inconsistency in calling it is ruining some very good games.

 

[pulaski74]

I believe that the charge/block call itself is deeply flawed. They seemed to have changed it with the idea that in 95% of those situation, it will be called a block. But sometimes these calls are so close that even slow mo replay is not able to decide it for sure.

What if it's ALWAYS a block no matter what? Players know they cannot try to stop a drive in that way, especially since when they do someone is almost bound to fall down and the chances of injury are severe.

Anyone have a thought on that?

If they can't change it in a way to make it crystal clear, fans are going to continue to feel robbed. It's not a good dynamic. I know nothing about the game of basketball but it seems the change to this rule and the inconsistency in calling it is ruining some very good games.

Ncaa has been trying to figure this out for years, think they used to have the option of allowing the basket and still calling a charge, I liked it better that way. Agree maybe everything should be a block, with the exception of a player being out of contol. Although it would still b open for debate it would be easier to hold the officials responceable and may put an end or at least slow down this problem in the college game.

 

[ROCuse]

Ncaa has been trying to figure this out for years, think they used to have the option of allowing the basket and still calling a charge, I liked it better that way. Agree maybe everything should be a block, with the exception of a player being out of contol. Although it would still b open for debate it would be easier to hold the officials responceable and may put an end or at least slow down this problem in the college game.

The basket can still count when a charge is called as long as the ball is released before any contact is made.

My issue is that in all of the discussion on the Fair charge call at the end of the Duke game, a lot of the focus is on it being a close play and a judgement call. ESPN says they interviewed a few refs and half said charge and half said block. Or they go around the panel on SportsCenter and half half say charge and the other half say block. In my mind, that is justification for a rule change. How can important plays be left to a coin flip or a judgement call?

 

[jgeorge322]

To call a charge when a secondary defender with both feet in the paint slides under the offensive player is just dumb.

 

[smmCUSE]

I think the Charge/block foul in inherently flawed, yes. But I also think it is necessary. What needs fixing is a clear definition and consistency. No doubt in my mind Fair should not have been called for the charge. Perhaps just call the obvious ones, leave the questionable, 50/50 ones to no-calls, and continue to count the basket, should it be applicable.

 

[CorduroyG]

get rid of charging. a defender has to make a play on the ball, you cant just stand still, thats not defense.

 

[CusefanATL]

The basket can still count when a charge is called as long as the ball is released before any contact is made.

I don't believe that is true anymore. I almost positive they changed it a few years ago.

 

[CusefanATL]

get rid of charging. a defender has to make a play on the ball, you cant just stand still, thats not defense.

I understand your frustration... but that's not the point of a charge.

That's just what Shane Battier perfected.

 

[smmCUSE]

There are some instances where player control is an issue. Standing in the way (normally) is not one of them.

 

[Cowtown]

Oh, my head ...

 

[pulaski74]

There are some instances where player control is an issue. Standing in the way (normally) is not one of them.

Yes, think you got me wrong, I was thinking of the offensive player

 

[newmexicuse]

I like the idea of letting them play with a no call unless the call is clearcut. If a ref whistles a call and play stops, then it should be reviewable, and the whistle should stand only if it is clearcut. If it turns out to not be a clearcut call then the ball should be awarded on the alternate possession arrow basis.

 

[jncuse]

Block OR No-call. Get rid of the charge. Pushing off on a defender would still be a foul, but that is different than a charge.

Getting somebody to "charge" into you would merely be considered good defence, as it does reduce the chance for the basket to go in. If a player "charges" into you and no shot is taken, the play is a turnover.



That is my preferred model, although I admit it may not be feasible due to safety concerns. Some have said it would be dangerous for defenders if you let players charge into them. It would not be in my view. Without the charge call, defenders will actually have no fear in standing up and holding their ground, and will not assume the Coach K flop position to draw charges. It could create some dangerous collisions that put the airborne offensive player at risk - that I agree with.

 

[jncuse]

I like the idea of letting them play with a no call unless the call is clearcut. If a ref whistles a call and play stops, then it should be reviewable, and the whistle should stand only if it is clearcut. If it turns out to not be a clearcut call then the ball should be awarded on the alternate possession arrow basis.

The problem is what is clear-cut and what is not clear-cut. The variance in interpretation amongst refs may be actually higher in this model than it is today.

 

[OttoMets]

If you do what Baye did against Maryland (or, though less egregious, what Parker did to Gbinije), it should still be called a charge.

Aside from those obvious instances in which an offensive player takes the affirmative move of dropping a shoulder and going through a defender while still on the floor, though, we could do without it.

Call everything a block unless there's a clear failure of the offensive player to attempt to make a basketball move and avoid contact.

 

[newmexicuse]

The problem is what is clear-cut and what is not clear-cut. The variance in interpretation amongst refs may be actually higher in this model than it is today.

No matter what rule is in place there would have to be a certain amount of judgment involved.

I watched the CJ play multiple times. I felt it was a bad call and a block, however, to me that was not a clear cut call. Apparantly, amongst many refs the opinion was divided. One way to decide what is clearcut could be if on re-play all the refs in the games agree it was a block or a charge then that would make the call clearcut. If somebody diseents then it would not be deemed clearcut.

 

[NineOneSeven]

You can't completely eliminate it.

If players know they don't have any chance of getting called for it, the chances of them barreling down the lane completely out of control will increase, imo.

 

[CorduroyG]

No matter what rule is in place there would have to be a certain amount of judgment involved.

I watched the CJ play multiple times. I felt it was a bad call and a block, however, to me that was not a clear cut call. Apparantly, amongst many refs the opinion was divided. One way to decide what is clearcut could be if on re-play all the refs in the games agree it was a block or a charge then that would make the call clearcut. If somebody diseents then it would not be deemed clearcut.

to me if its close its a clearcut block. the only way it should be a charge is if its OBVIOUSLY a charge. its easy to me, if its close = block. if the offensive player is out of control and barreling into the defender or lowers his should and throws up a wild shot, then its a charge.

to me the worst call in all of sports is when a offensive player makes a great move, SCORES a basket (the actual point of the game) and somehow gets penalized because a defender is STANDING STILL. or slides under him. this isnt just about cj, ive been saying this for years. college basketball rules favor the defense way too much, thats a big reason so many games are in the 50s.

 

[Cowtown]

The problem is what is clear-cut and what is not clear-cut. The variance in interpretation amongst refs may be actually higher in this model than it is today.

The biggest contributor to that is the NBA's bullsh!t brand of basketball. The only consistency there is that the stars get every call regardless of who has position where. Then basketball fans will watch NCAA or HS games reffed by officials who try to fairly apply a rule they actually know, and nobody likes the call because it's not what they saw on the NBA game they watched yesterday. That's why players think they can drive regardless of how many are between them and the basket, because they don't understand the difference between the NBA and real basketball. I'd bet most fans don't know there's a different rule book for the NBA, let alone what the differences are and why. You couldn't give me NBA tix even front row courtside.

edit: another part of the NBA's deleterious influence on this is their announcers and former players as color guys (Bill Walton is hardly the only one), none of whom have ever seen the inside of a rule book yet prattle on ad nauseum about what's a rule and how it's supposed to be applied.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Basketball is a game that is supposed to flow. At some point the rules have been reinterpreted to give benefit to players who initiate contact. We see it all the time, with a shooter leaning into a defender and with defenders bodying up players with the ball to deny them room to maneuver.

Who gets charged with a penalty should be the player that is initiating the contact. Fair had a clear line to the basket, Hood impeded his drive and made no play on the ball. Block.

An offensive player lowering a shoulder and pushing a defender out of the way should not be a penalty on the defender.

 

[orangefan13]

I dont mind the charge when someone drives uncointrollably to the hoop from 20 feet out and someone is standing there in the middle, I just hate ones that happen when a guy is rubbing his midsection against your body and falls over or last second slide ins like this..


A big part of fairs charge was the duke guy was leaning back and then leaned forward at the last second so fair just didn't catch his right shoulder and instead his upper chest. Fair wasn't able to judge the distance where he would have to try to jump around him because of the last second lean forward a extra foot and a half. I think that lean should have been enough for either moving or no whistle.

 

[Cowtown]

Basketball is a game that is supposed to flow. At some point the rules have been reinterpreted to give benefit to players who initiate contact. We see it all the time, with a shooter leaning into a defender and with defenders bodying up players with the ball to deny them room to maneuver.

Who gets charged with a penalty should be the player that is initiating the contact. Fair had a clear line to the basket, Hood impeded his drive and made no play on the ball. Block.

An offensive player lowering a shoulder and pushing a defender out of the way should not be a penalty on the defender.

No play on the ball? Defense is defending your basket, not making a "play on the ball." And blocking shots (which is a play on the ball) may get air time late at night on ESPN, but it is not good defense. Blocking shots is desperation reaction in the wake of not playing good defense.

(edit: no crap to you, Fly Rodder, just responding to the idea of "play on the ball.")

 

[Cowtown]

I dont mind the charge when someone drives uncointrollably to the hoop from 20 feet out and someone is standing there in the middle, I just hate ones that happen when a guy is rubbing his midsection against your body and falls over or last second slide ins like this..

A big part of fairs charge was the duke guy was leaning back and then leaned forward at the last second so fair just didn't catch his right shoulder and instead his upper chest. Fair wasn't able to judge the distance where he would have to try to jump around him because of the last second lean forward a extra foot and a half. I think that lean should have been enough for either moving or no whistle.

A big part of the problem on that play is that Greene had to look to his right to see Fair begin his drive, and then look away to his left to see when Hood established position. I don't know what the solution to that is, because Greene was "lead" on the play and the ball down there is his primary zone. In order to apply the rule according to "the defender must establish position before the shooter begins his upward motion," the ref needs to see both at the same time. And that's very difficult to do also, btw.

 

[OttoMets]

No play on the ball? Defense is defending your basket, not making a "play on the ball." And blocking shots (which is a play on the ball) may get air time late at night on ESPN, but it is not good defense. Blocking shots is desperation reaction in the wake of not playing good defense.

(edit: no crap to you, Fly Rodder, just responding to the idea of "play on the ball.")

As I understand it, holding your stance between the ball and the bucket is effectively a play on the ball. Falling out of the play is what we want to discourage.

 

[TinyManInside]

Personally I think that you need to keep the charge in the game, otherwise there is the possibility of the game just becoming a wrestling match and the stronger team wins by default. I like the fact that the game is a balance of skill, speed, AND strength. I don't want it to be strength first and everything else secondary. If I want that, I'll watch football, which I also love, but for entirely different reasons.

To be honest I think the best way to fix this issue to simply say that a secondary defender CANNOT take a charge. Leave it so the primary defender (on-ball) can take a charge, but a secondary defender cannot simply rotate over and slide under an airborn player.

I also think that lowering the shoulder to slam into the defender for the purposes of creating space should be called more often. I feel like the balance of the calls go towards players being passive defensively (the 'standing in the way' charge), whereas an aggressive defender who is forcefully bodied away with the shoulder slam doesn't often get rewarded for the defense.