Carmelo stuff

[jvbj01]

Is it me or is there much more trash talk and negative banter on this board versus the previous? Yes, this is a place for people to express their opinions, but player bashing is getting old.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

People still take childish potshots at GMac and Harris. Sad, really.

Not to mention the people who have taken shots at Craig Forth. The guy is a 1st grade teacher and a girls varsity basketball coach. Talk about doing something he loves. OK, so he wasn't the most athletic but he did win a NC and contributed far more than most people saw on the court.

 

[samspann1]

Not to mention the people who have taken shots at Craig Forth. The guy is a 1st grade teacher and a girls varsity basketball coach. Talk about doing something he loves. OK, so he wasn't the most athletic but he did win a NC and contributed far more than most people saw on the court.

Forth always seemed like a really good kid, and his post-SU accomplishments confirm that.

 

[Moontan]

Is it me or is there much more trash talk and negative banter on this board versus the previous? Yes, this is a place for people to express their opinions, but player bashing is getting old.

It's not just you, others have noticed as well.

A mass influx of people from the newspaper site, and elsewhere, has changed the character of the board. We can only hope that the change doesn't drive a lot of "old timers" away.

 

[Orangezoo]

i hope the majority of the group from the old board(s) stick around as well. i dont understand the incessant need of posters like skurey who feel empowered to disect a longtime poster and friend of the university and bball programs posts. Does it make you feel big and powerful? If that is the need you have i suggest carrying it out more productively through getting involved in politics ad challenge the authority of the corrupted politicians in this country. many of the immature posters seem to toss out misdirected anger on this forum. kingotis you said what needed to be said.

 

[DownTheField]

There should be more frequent bannings and time outs for saying stupid . Can't hurt.

 

[CusefanATL]

i hope the majority of the group from the old board(s) stick around as well. i dont understand the incessant need of posters like skurey who feel empowered to disect a longtime poster and friend of the university and bball programs posts. Does it make you feel big and powerful? If that is the need you have i suggest carrying it out more productively through getting involved in politics ad challenge the authority of the corrupted politicians in this country. many of the immature posters seem to toss out misdirected anger on this forum. kingotis you said what needed to be said.

1. give him a warning
2. block him
3. move on
4. profit

 

[RandygoCuse]

I'll repeat what has been said many times on the message board (as well as in this thread). Whether it is Gerry McNamara, Carmelo Anthony, or Craig Forth, it is logical to assume that SU Basketball will be discussed on an SU Basketball message board. Some of this will be negative critiques of players. Yes, many of these players have contributed much off the court for their contributions to the school and community at large. We should applaud them for this. However, this does not mean that we cannot talk about the flaws in their game. If we were to only talk about their strengths, the board would lose all creditbility. I also do not think us criticizing the players affects our recruiting. I do not spend as much time on the message boards as others, but I'm willing to bet that every school that has avid fans posts both postitives and negatives on their players and coaches. I believe recruits admire our passion and understand that playing in the spotlight has pros and cons.

I agree that we should generally avoid making personal attacks on their character, but I feel this very rarely happens. It certainly does not happen that often for players as generous as Melo or for ones that are such a great role model in the classroom like Forth. But we need to separate critiquing players' games from who they are as person.

 

[pfister1]

I'll repeat what has been said many times on the message board (as well as in this thread). Whether it is Gerry McNamara, Carmelo Anthony, or Craig Forth, it is logical to assume that SU Basketball will be discussed on an SU Basketball message board. Some of this will be negative critiques of players. Yes, many of these players have contributed much off the court for their contributions to the school and community at large. We should applaud them for this. However, this does not mean that we cannot talk about the flaws in their game. If we were to only talk about their strengths, the board would lose all creditbility. I also do not think us criticizing the players affects our recruiting. I do not spend as much time on the message boards as others, but I'm willing to bet that every school that has avid fans posts both postitives and negatives on their players and coaches. I believe recruits admire our passion and understand that playing in the spotlight has pros and cons.

I agree that we should generally avoid making personal attacks on their character, but I feel this very rarely happens. It certainly does not happen that often for players as generous as Melo or for ones that are such a great role model in the classroom like Forth. But we need to separate critiquing players' games from who they are as person.

Agreed, it's all in the presentation.

Rationally based reasonable criticism = fine.

Player attacks and constant bitching about their deficiencies to the point that you fail to acknowledge their strengths and all that they bring to the program = fail.

 

[SUFan44]

Battier is awful but you are absolutely correct, Lebron currently is surrounded by better talent. But Lebron in Cleveland did wayyyyyy more with wayyyyyy less.

I disagree. People like to blast the supporting cast Lebron had in Cleveland, but what Cleveland did have was a bunch of role players that knew their role and played their part. They had plenty of shooting around Lebron and a hustle guy (Varejao) that was vastly underrated.

Carmelo has never had that anywhere he has been. Denver had virtually no shooters around him, and Andre Miller for the first part of his career always wanted to be the star of the Nuggets. Billups came on and they made the Western Conference finals in a MUCH better conference than the Eastern Conference was when Lebron took the Cavs to the finals.

They'll always be compared because they were in the same draft class, but it's not fair to compare IMO. Melo is a lot like Jordan - and don't misconstrue what I'm saying to make me out to implying Melo is as good as Jordan, he isn't. But Melo needs the ball in his hands.

Pippen didn't need the ball in his hands, was a tremendous facilitator who made the extra pass and they had shooters around at every position (Longley, Kukoc, Armstrong, Kerr, Grant, etc.) that could knock down shots. The Knicks have inconsistent shooters at spots (JR Smith, Baron Davis), shooters that can't do anything else (Novak) or guys that need the ball (Amar'e). And they have no facilitators other than Bibby, who actually makes the offense run a lot better.

Melo is surrounded by a bunch of B-list talent other than Chandler. And I include Amar'e on that list at this point in his career.

The one thing I will say, however, is that Melo defensively still doesn't have much of a clue and he's closing in on 10 years in the NBA. I'm not sure who is to blame - coaching, player, or a combination - and I will say he's gotten a bit better, but he has a LONG way to go from even being a decent team defender in the NBA.

 

[CusefanATL]

I'll repeat what has been said many times on the message board (as well as in this thread). Whether it is Gerry McNamara, Carmelo Anthony, or Craig Forth, it is logical to assume that SU Basketball will be discussed on an SU Basketball message board. Some of this will be negative critiques of players. Yes, many of these players have contributed much off the court for their contributions to the school and community at large. We should applaud them for this. However, this does not mean that we cannot talk about the flaws in their game. If we were to only talk about their strengths, the board would lose all creditbility. I also do not think us criticizing the players affects our recruiting. I do not spend as much time on the message boards as others, but I'm willing to bet that every school that has avid fans posts both postitives and negatives on their players and coaches. I believe recruits admire our passion and understand that playing in the spotlight has pros and cons.

I agree that we should generally avoid making personal attacks on their character, but I feel this very rarely happens. It certainly does not happen that often for players as generous as Melo or for ones that are such a great role model in the classroom like Forth. But we need to separate critiquing players' games from who they are as person.

I agree... where i get a little upset is when people say Lebron isnt a winner and Melo is a proven winner. Or go out of there way to start threads that Melo is outplaying Lebron. Or say things like Melo was out west, Lebron in the east (lebron had a horrible team and won 60 games).

Lebron is the best 'talent' in the history of the game. If he wins 4+ championships, he will go down as the best player of all time.

Carmelo is a very nice NBA player. He is borderline elite. He brought Syracuse a much deserved championship. He swears in front of 30,000 people, he donates money, he takes too many jumpers, he is sometimes lazy on defense, he makes beautiful fadaways, he gets to the rim gracefully, he SCORES, he held a team hostage, he's has more assists getting coaches fired than he has actual assists in the NBA, he has thrown punches, he builds outdoor courts, he builds buildings, he buys handicapped vans, he loves jim b, he got into a spat with gerry and billy. He got into a spat sugar ray. But he hasn't gus ferroted himself or puked in the 4th quarter.

Those are all (somewhat) true, but you know how I remember him?

And that is all that matters. I hope everyone agrees with me. Lets all get along.

 

[Knicks411]

I disagree. People like to blast the supporting cast Lebron had in Cleveland, but what Cleveland did have was a bunch of role players that knew their role and played their part. They had plenty of shooting around Lebron and a hustle guy (Varejao) that was vastly underrated.

That's definitely true, but still, most of those guys weren't that good. I agree on Varejao though, he is a good player. There was never really a second scorer around him. (I mean, I guess Mo Williams, but he really isn't all that good).

Also wanted to say; in comparing the supporting casts of Lebron and Melo, and this speaks to what you said, Lebron is the type of player who is going to make his supporting cast look a lot better; Melo not as much. Part of the reason you talk about how the Cleveland guys knew their role is I think because Lebron is much better able to facilitate that from the other guys on the team.

But I'm not going to dispute that the Knicks team right now is flawed. There are very few other guys on the team right now who can create their own offense and it results in Melo having to simply go one on one a lot.

 

[DeGrozz]

I avoided the Knicks threads last night -- now I am wondering what the hell I missed...

Melo's a professional basketball player playing under one of the brightest spotlights in the league. I don't think critiquing his games is a something that should be off limits. I understand calling out people that are slinging personal insults his way, but discussing him taking/forcing too many shots and playing right into the Heat's defensive game plan is just an analysis of the game which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

With all of his faults, I still love that he's on the Knicks. We've come a long way in just two years. As Syracuse fans we're really lucky to have him joining (most of) our "home-town" professional team

 

[br801]

I agree that we should generally avoid making personal attacks on their character, but I feel this very rarely happens. It certainly does not happen that often for players as generous as Melo or for ones that are such a great role model in the classroom like Forth.

I must be reading different threads than you because I've seen numerous personal attacks and absolutely anyone connected to the program (past, present or future) has been fair game. And it seems these attacks come from a mix of new and old posters.

 

[Phillymoose]

Carmelo is no amare, thats for sure. cause thats a world class idiot.

and Melo has never puked on a court in the 4th qtr or forgotten the rules of the game...

Or played for Philadelphia - which is actually your only real point. Had he played for New Jersey, his likeness would be tattooed on your buttocks.

 

[Eric15]

i dont understand the incessant need of posters like skurey who feel empowered to disect a longtime poster and friend of the university and bball programs posts.

The idea that certain posters should be immune from criticism seems North Koreaish to me.

 

[Orangezoo]

The idea that certain posters should be immune from criticism seems North Koreaish to me.

it has nothing to do with being immune from criticism.. it has to do with using a well respected poster as target practice as a segway into making a point about a player. there are valid points about melo's limitations as a basketball player going on here as well as pointless left field attacks. attacking a poster is different than criticizing. having a well thought angle vs an impulsive personal rant are two completely different things. i must ask though why should criticizing a poster be ok ? if its their point you disagree with then so be it and address it as such, but their is no need to criticize the person. cto was making a point about things said on the board not shouting personal insults at those that said it.. there is a line there which was part of my point. the other is if you need get after someone ... go jump on hoyatalk.

 

[PoppyHart]

Was it last week's SI that called Melo the most "polarizing" player in the league? I don't think his place in the game is only debated on syracusefan.com.

So, Game 3 will start. Melo will hit 4 out of his first 5 and someone will 100% post the following halfway through the 1st period:

"Melo is absolutely owning Lebron right now. If the refs weren't in the Heat's back pocket, this would be a legitimate 6-7 game series." Putting aside the veracity of the three statements, the effect is that we're back to square one in the endless debate.

Two things:
1. If we can't debate a player's, coach's, whoever's status in the game, college or pro, it's no longer a discussion board. It becomes groupthink.
2. Maybe NBA thread,NHL threads, soccer threads, girls softball threads, etc... should be moved to the OT board.

 

[cto]

The idea that certain posters should be immune from criticism seems North Koreaish to me.

I don't think anyone suggested that. As a moderator, I have a "delete" button here. I've never used it to delete a post just because it was critical of something I said or because it disagreed with me. And I am certain the same can be said of the other moderators here.

 

[CusefanATL]

just imagine if there was a forum while derrick coleman was in the nba...

and he is as loved as anyone right now.

 

[KingOtis]

just imagine if there was a forum while derrick coleman was in the nba...

and he is as loved as anyone right now.

Back when I was a freshman at SU, I was wearing a DC jersey in my dorm and a sophomore got on my case and said Coleman was a disgrace to the university.

 

[Orangezoo]

Back when I was a freshman at SU, I was wearing a DC jersey in my dorm and a sophomore got on my case and said Coleman was a disgrace to the university.

I was a frosh in '03 and at many of the same "social gatherings" that melo and some of the other players were at. While there were plenty of run of the mill stupid collegiate moments - based on the "stories" about DC - Melo was a saint in comparison.

 

[DoctorBombay]

There seem to be people here who delight in posting negative stuff about Carmelo. In response, let me say a few things (in no particular order).

1) All things considered, there has never been a player that has meant more to SU. Those of us who followed the team's 2003 post-season journey know that. Many of those questioning Melo seem not to have been around then.

2) No student athlete has been more generous to SU than Carmelo. Edit: no team player anywhere (including Duke, Notre Dame, UNC, USC or wherever) has ever been more generous to his school than has Melo.

3) Without Melo, there would not be a Melo Center... which is why we have recruited amazing classes of players in the past few years.

4) Of course, Lebron was always going to be the #1 draft pick in 2003. What a stupid discussion.

5) Who has won more NBA championships as of today.. Lebron or Carmelo? Last I looked, they were tied. Who won more NCAA championships?

6) Carmelo has not been surrounded by the best talent during his NBA career. Denver... don't think so. Knicks... just compare their roster to the Heat. Three current Heat players (James, Wade and Bosh) were on the 2008 US Olympic team. Probably this year, too. And they also have Shane Battier, about whom the NY Times Magazine ran a cover story, calling him the best team player and most unselfish player in the NBA. The Knicks best run of the season featured an undrafted skinny guard from Harvard, for gosh sakes.

7) I am not sure why this board seems to take such delight in "eating its own." Just a random late-night observation.

Yeah, it is kinda bafflin' at times to have to defend SU sports alums from your own fanbase. And no, its not always about "legitimate discussion". There are some who are consistent and constant in their "opinions", which always seem to be negative. Its usually done with a somewhat bizarre kinda glee...like "I'm not wearing "orange-colored" glasses like the rest of you...I'm bad-ass"!
-sigh-

 

[Eric15]

it has nothing to do with being immune from criticism.. it has to do with using a well respected poster as target practice

So I come back to my original point. Is there a list somewhere of which posters are well-respected and which posters aren't respected? I just want to make sure I'm in compliance with whom I can use as target practice.

In fairness, what did Skurey say that was so bad? I didn't see any personal attacks on CTO from him. If anything, KingOtis (whom I like as a poster) was much meaner calling him a "douchebag" and "black-sheep" and saying he's "nothing".

 

[KingOtis]

So I come back to my original point. Is there a list somewhere of which posters are well-respected and which posters aren't respected? I just want to make sure I'm in compliance with whom I can use as target practice.

In fairness, what did Skurey say that was so bad? I didn't see any personal attacks on CTO from him. If anything, KingOtis (whom I like as a poster) was much meaner calling him a "douchebag" and "black-sheep" and saying he's "nothing".

Here are a few examples of the disrespect and arrogance that I didn't find the least bit "reasonable":
http://syracusefan.com/threads/carmelo-stuff.25925/#post-278562
http://syracusefan.com/threads/carmelo-stuff.25925/page-2#post-278589
http://syracusefan.com/threads/carmelo-stuff.25925/page-2#post-278614

Most of Page 2, really. It's one thing to be constructive, it's another to be condescending.

No problem if you disagree.