CJ at the 2, if Roberson is what some think?

[Cusefan10923]

Fair and Grant are excellent Syracuse forwards. Why experiment and move Fair out of his natural position when he's had so much success the past three years? The trio of Fair, Grant and Roberson rotating at the forwards (probably about 70 to 75 minutes among them) is plenty of time for the two best players on the team while getting your up-and-coming star, Roberson, experience for next year. We need Fair and Grant to be fresh and productive - resting Fair would be more beneficial than having him play too many minutes out of position.

I find it hard to believe that between Ennis, Gbinije, Cooney, Patterson and BJ (each with a unique skill set) we can't get 80 minutes of decent basketball. The "weakness" at the second guard and center are way overblown.

Exactly. I know it's fun to speculate and throw different scenario's out there but this lack of confidence in Cooney and Mike G is getting old. I think these boys are the real deal, time will tell but CJ sure as hell isn't playing any mins at the 2 guard. Let's at least wait til Hawaii to talk about who other than Cooney and Mike G should get mins at the 2.

 

[Col. Bleep]

C'mon...it'll never happen unless every other 2 is out of the game.
After all, Boeheim couldn't find time for a natural like Elvir Ovcina at the 2...

 

[bozophobe]

Fair and Grant are excellent Syracuse forwards. Why experiment and move Fair out of his natural position when he's had so much success the past three years? The trio of Fair, Grant and Roberson rotating at the forwards (probably about 70 to 75 minutes among them) is plenty of time for the two best players on the team while getting your up-and-coming star, Roberson, experience for next year. We need Fair and Grant to be fresh and productive - resting Fair would be more beneficial than having him play too many minutes out of position.

I find it hard to believe that between Ennis, Gbinije, Cooney, Patterson and BJ (each with a unique skill set) we can't get 80 minutes of decent basketball. The "weakness" at the second guard and center are way overblown.

The 'combined skill set' observation is kind of irrelevant, really, until the day when we can actually use test tubes or sutures to create a single player who brings it all onto the court. At center, Rak has no offense. Same with Keita, and he needs more weight. Coleman has no defensive game, and is limited on O.

The same applies to all the candidates at the 2. Might as well have thrown Mookie Jones in there, with his positive qualities (okay, quality), but we know that wouldn't matter on Boeheim's team. Of course there are weaknesses - major ones. But, like Brooky said, it's not a sky-is-falling situation yet, either. Someone needs to develop a more well-rounded game, but it's still early. Mathematically, it's not unreasonable to expect just one of the 4 or so names mentioned to bring it, eventually. We know he'll have to be steady on defense, first, if anything. Like with Brandon Triche, despite his own frequent offensive dry spells.

 

[orangefan13]

I don't think teams can stop Fair or Grant. Maybe you can slow them down alittle, but you aren't stopping them like MCW and Southerland were against Michigan. Fair will find a way to pullup or drive any day. Grant can start his drives inside the arc and is taller agianst double teams then MCW was.

Teams will be forced to put their best defender on Fair, and Grants drive is going to force them to put a solid defender on him as well. On top of that they need to have a solid defender on Ennis because of his iq, passing and ability to score from outside, midrange and layups. Having all that is going to open things up very noticably for our next scoring guard/forward. That being said, Cooney isn't a isolation guard. Gbinije is, but hasn't shown a midrange jumper or much off a pullup yet...And Ron I am still unsure about. Roberson/BJ might bring the isolation game combined with a solid midrange shot while TC/MG/and RP can't. If so imo, we would be nuts not trying to get them on the floor with Grant, Fair and Ennis as they could bring 3-5 straight baskets and frustrate oppenents like sophmore KJO could as a 4th scoring option.

I also think Rak would work well in that lineup. Hes really got a nice left hand dribble now with improved mobility and sense to attack immedietly when he receives the ball. He also made a few real nice passes out of his dribble in canada. He will be ahead of where Fab, Rick, and AO ever were at syracuse with a dribble facing the basket this year.

 

[sufandu]

You won't see CJ at the two. If TR is good enough to make JB want him on the floor at the same time as Grant and CJ, you'll see JB go small, probably sliding Grant to the 5 and have CJ and TR at the forward spots.

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

did he really? I could probably count on my two hands how many minutes James played at the two, and I might not even need both hands

I think he might be thinking about Kris Joseph, who did get some looks at the 2

Nope, how soon we all forget. Last year, due to our potential issues at the 2, it was certainly being discussed and James absolutely got run at the 2. I'm kind of surprised people don't recall it There was discussions about it, too...

In fact, after a quick google, it appears it was James and CJ. That validates my point a bit more. If I had recalled CJ was in the mix then, I would've mentioned it.


Here are a few links from last season.

1) http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2012/10/cj_fair_and_james_southerland.html

SU coach Jim Boeheim has said he will employ C.J. Fair and James Southerland at the top of the Orange 2-3 zone this season.

Coach, he always tells me ‘Just be ready to play the 2 position,’¤” Fair said

. So he got me at the top of the zone, just trying to get used to it, learning the assignments. He’s been trying me and James up there, because we’re going to be on the floor a lot.

(Boeheim) likes our length at the top of the zone, especially when Michael Carter-Williams is in there,” Southerland said.

2) http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/17/rothstein-files-five-observations-from-syracuse/


SIXTH SENSE - Not many schools in the country will bring a sixth man off the bench the caliber of James Southerland. The 6-8 senior has waited patiently for an opportunity to play major minutes for Syracuse and he should get just that this season. Southerland was extremely important for the Orange last year after the suspension of Fab Melo and regularly logged time in the Syracuse front court as a stretch power forward. The sharpshooter will log time at three separate positions this season, including shooting guard where he’ll play defensively at the top of the 2-3 zone.

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

Taking not only our best rebounder, but pretty much our only dependable rebounder out of the forward spot makes no sense. We have plenty of guys to play the 2, Roberson can wait a year and sit behind Grant and Fair for a season. I think Roberson will be a good player but at this time Fair is an elite college player and Grant is one of the most athletic players this university has ever seen, no reason to defer minutes to Roberson if Grant/Fair are not injured. If Rak doesn't improve or show us much, he can sit a little bit, if Roberson isn't an improvement over Rak in the time he is given, give the minutes back to Rak. MCW, Waiters, Melo, and Coleman were much bigger prospects coming here than Roberson, they all pretty much sat their first season, no reason he can't.

Well, we should all tell JB that because the thought already crossed his mind last season. If he felt he could do it out of necessary last year, something tells me he would try it again if the two issues I mentioned come to fruition (poor 2g play and Roberson is the beast some feel).



http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2012/10/cj_fair_and_james_southerland.html

SU coach Jim Boeheim has said he will employ C.J. Fair and James Southerland at the top of the Orange 2-3 zone this season.

Coach, he always tells me ‘Just be ready to play the 2 position,’¤” Fair said

. So he got me at the top of the zone, just trying to get used to it, learning the assignments. He’s been trying me and James up there, because we’re going to be on the floor a lot.

(Boeheim) likes our length at the top of the zone, especially when Michael Carter-Williams is in there,” Southerland said.

2) http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/17/rothstein-files-five-observations-from-syracuse/

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

Grant will play the 5 long before CJ plays the 2. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You won't see CJ at the two. If TR is good enough to make JB want him on the floor at the same time as Grant and CJ, you'll see JB go small, probably sliding Grant to the 5 and have CJ and TR at the forward spots.

While I much rather see Grant at the 5 with CJ and TR at the forwards, JB was extremely adamant about not playing Grant at the 5. Look back to his quotes when James was out and people asked about Grant at the 5. Sure, he'll be a year more mature, physical and smarter but if we assume that, what cannot we assume CJ could have similar growth that allows for the 2?

That said, I'd love a trapping, up tempo line up of Ennis, Cooney or G, Fair, Roberson and Grant. It would be fastbreak and dunk city...

 

[Sgt Cuse]

While I much rather see Grant at the 5 with CJ and TR at the forwards, JB was extremely adamant about not playing Grant at the 5. Look back to his quotes when James was out and people asked about Grant at the 5. Sure, he'll be a year more mature, physical and smarter but if we assume that, what cannot we assume CJ could have similar growth that allows for the 2?

That said, I'd love a trapping, up tempo line up of Ennis, Cooney or G, Fair, Roberson and Grant. It would be fastbreak and dunk city...

Royal - not you too? This Grant at the 5 stuff needs to stop. SU has its deepest center rotation ever. We do not, and should not, move a forward out of position into the most difficult defensive spot in the zone. It would also put undue foul stress on one of our best players. It wasn't done last year when the center position was much weaker and it shouldn't, and won't, be done this year. Even if the Grant at center experiment was tried and worked we would still have question marks at the 2

I'm on-board with your original premise, if Roberson shows as advertised, I hope JB tries CJ at the 2. He tried Dirty, he should give CJ his chance. This coming year the 2g looks weaker than last year. CJ has a better handle and a better bball IQ than Dirty. It might work this time around.

And if the experiment works and CJ can handle the 2g duties along with Roberson being as some have advertised, this team could be nasty.

 

[moqui]

Nope, how soon we all forget. Last year, due to our potential issues at the 2, it was certainly being discussed and James absolutely got run at the 2. I'm kind of surprised people don't recall it There was discussions about it, too...

In fact, after a quick google, it appears it was James and CJ. That validates my point a bit more. If I had recalled CJ was in the mix then, I would've mentioned it.


Here are a few links from last season.

1) http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2012/10/cj_fair_and_james_southerland.html

SU coach Jim Boeheim has said he will employ C.J. Fair and James Southerland at the top of the Orange 2-3 zone this season.

Coach, he always tells me ‘Just be ready to play the 2 position,’¤” Fair said

. So he got me at the top of the zone, just trying to get used to it, learning the assignments. He’s been trying me and James up there, because we’re going to be on the floor a lot.

(Boeheim) likes our length at the top of the zone, especially when Michael Carter-Williams is in there,” Southerland said.

2) http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/17/rothstein-files-five-observations-from-syracuse/


SIXTH SENSE - Not many schools in the country will bring a sixth man off the bench the caliber of James Southerland. The 6-8 senior has waited patiently for an opportunity to play major minutes for Syracuse and he should get just that this season. Southerland was extremely important for the Orange last year after the suspension of Fab Melo and regularly logged time in the Syracuse front court as a stretch power forward. The sharpshooter will log time at three separate positions this season, including shooting guard where he’ll play defensively at the top of the 2-3 zone.

those citations are both examples of pre-season silliness. In actual game time, the stats are absolutely clear.

SU played 40 games with 2 overtime periods. That is a grand total of 3220 backcourt minutes available.
MCW played 1408 minutes
Triche played 1351
Cooney played 436
That's 3195 minutes, leaving only 25 left over. Nolan Hart played 15 minutes in cleanup time. That leaves 10 minutes, not counting the other walkons.

James or CJ may have found themselves at the top of the zone for a possession or two, but in no actual sense did either one of them see time as a 2 guard.

 

[Garbs]

to add to what moqui said, we only had 3 guards last year so it was necessary because of injury or fould trouble, this year we have 4 guards plus BJ

 

[sufandu]

While I much rather see Grant at the 5 with CJ and TR at the forwards, JB was extremely adamant about not playing Grant at the 5. Look back to his quotes when James was out and people asked about Grant at the 5. Sure, he'll be a year more mature, physical and smarter but if we assume that, what cannot we assume CJ could have similar growth that allows for the 2?

That said, I'd love a trapping, up tempo line up of Ennis, Cooney or G, Fair, Roberson and Grant. It would be fastbreak and dunk city...

It's easier for a young guy to physically mature than it is for a 6'8" forward that hasn't played guard through three years of college to become a two guard.

For the record, I only anticipate a move like this in a specific situation like extreme foul trouble or matching up against a small quick team. I'd be surprised if we saw what I described (arrange the three forwards however you'd like) for more than a total of 10 minutes for the entire season. I'd be surprised to see CJ at the 2 for more than 2 minutes the entire season.

 

[tee1222]

to add to what moqui said, we only had 3 guards last year so it was necessary because of injury or fould trouble, this year we have 4 guards plus BJ

Yup. This is exactly why neither will happen.
4-5 guards including BJ
3 centers (Rak, Keita, DC2)

The only way the latter would happen is if our 5s go on foul fest coupled with this:

 

[orangefan13]

While everyone enjoys being in their comfort zone, College basketball is about finding mismatches. When that tough game against a elite 8 caliber team comes along, that is when you are going to need it.

Going with a 6'3 spot up shooting guard who can't shoot with defense draped on him, going with a guard with no midrange pullup who rarely pulls up from 3, or asking Keita/Dajuan to try to match Grants drive/pull up from the high post while he pulls the best shotblocking center in the nation out of the low because he shoots it better from 15, won't bring the mismatches that can win those tough games.

 

[Cusefan0307]

This won't be a popular post on this thread, but I'll be shocked if CJ plays the 2. Do we really think Jim Boeheim is going to play CJ at the 2? This would mean taking your best rebounder, and one of your best shot blockers off the back line. I just don't see it happening. Dion was the 4th pick in the draft and he played about 10 mpg his freshmen year. MCW was a lottery pick and he played about 5 mpg his freshmen year. Nothing in CJ's past or JB's coaching history suggests to me that CJ will play the 2.

I think we will be fine with Trevor/Mike/BJ at the 2. If we get 17 ppg out of those 3 that will be fine. That is basically what Brandon and Trevor combined to average last year. I'm guessing the frontcourt will score more than they did last year anyway.

I'm willing to bet Roberson gets as much time as Grant did last year, and Waiters did his freshmen year. I know hes super talented, but hes not Carmelo. CJ and Jerami will get the bulk of the minutes at the 3 and 4, with XMAS also stealing some minutes. If Roberson plays more than 10mpg a lot of you will be dissappointed, but I will not be surprised. He has had no practice in the 2-3 and everyone knows that Boeheim does not play players who are not 100 percent up to par on defense. I'm not saying Roberson is not a good player, or not talented, it just isn't his time yet. When CJ and Jerami are in the Association, it will be his turn to take over the team.

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

those citations are both examples of pre-season silliness. In actual game time, the stats are absolutely clear.

SU played 40 games with 2 overtime periods. That is a grand total of 3220 backcourt minutes available.
MCW played 1408 minutes
Triche played 1351
Cooney played 436
That's 3195 minutes, leaving only 25 left over. Nolan Hart played 15 minutes in cleanup time. That leaves 10 minutes, not counting the other walkons.

James or CJ may have found themselves at the top of the zone for a possession or two, but in no actual sense did either one of them see time as a 2 guard.

Your stats further validate potentially using CJ at the 2, assuming a hypothetical of below-avg 2G play and Robertson development. Again, this is the assumption of below-avg 2g play from TC or G.

Going into last season, JB knew he could get 2759 mins of above-avg guard play and only had to cultivate someone (TC) to give about 400 or so mins for the 3rd guard. This year is much, much different.

Assuming Ennis takes about 1400 of those, you're left with 1800 mins available at the 2, or backup pg - 1800 mins that, it appears, could be an absolute unknown if we'll get avg or above avg play. If TC or G deliver sub-par performances, and JB thinks Roberson can be dynamic, it would not surprise me in the least to see JB try to get Roberson, Grant, Ennis and CJ on the court at the same time for 5-8 mins a game. One way to do that is CJ at the 2.

Is it highly-likely? Probably not. Is JB thinking about it (IMO), absolutely. At this point, I'm just beating on the poor, dead horse...so I'll stop

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

Royal - not you too? This Grant at the 5 stuff needs to stop. SU has its deepest center rotation ever. We do not, and should not, move a forward out of position into the most difficult defensive spot in the zone. It would also put undue foul stress on one of our best players. It wasn't done last year when the center position was much weaker and it shouldn't, and won't, be done this year. Even if the Grant at center experiment was tried and worked we would still have question marks at the 2

I'm on-board with your original premise, if Roberson shows as advertised, I hope JB tries CJ at the 2. He tried Dirty, he should give CJ his chance. This coming year the 2g looks weaker than last year. CJ has a better handle and a better bball IQ than Dirty. It might work this time around.

And if the experiment works and CJ can handle the 2g duties along with Roberson being as some have advertised, this team could be nasty.

Well, the minute I saw Grant take it to NOVA during James' absence last year, I knew he'd be a beast this season down low. CJ, has a chance to be one of our top 10 all-time four-year forwards (Hak-like career). Roberson - many on her think he's so good he could start. His AAU coach uttered #1 pick which is way beyond typical hyperbole. So, if you three ultra-talented guys, you try to get them as much time as possible. CJ is a 10 right now in terms of college hoops. Jerami will be an 8.5 or 9 this season. Is Roberson near there? Maybe but if so, then you have to weigh these three against Rak, DC2 and Baye. They all have great purposes and roles. However, they are 4-7's right now. Some days, DC2's defense is a 2, some days Rak is a 4, etc. Can they grow and become much better? Absolutely. I'm not sure it's just this year yet.

 

[moqui]

Your stats further validate potentially using CJ at the 2, assuming a hypothetical of below-avg 2G play and Robertson development. Again, this is the assumption of below-avg 2g play from TC or G.

but to meet your assumption, their play would have to not only be below average for a 2G, but below average for a career forward who has never played the position!

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Well, the minute I saw Grant take it to NOVA during James' absence last year, I knew he'd be a beast this season down low. CJ, has a chance to be one of our top 10 all-time four-year forwards (Hak-like career). Roberson - many on her think he's so good he could start. His AAU coach uttered #1 pick which is way beyond typical hyperbole. So, if you three ultra-talented guys, you try to get them as much time as possible. CJ is a 10 right now in terms of college hoops. Jerami will be an 8.5 or 9 this season. Is Roberson near there? Maybe but if so, then you have to weigh these three against Rak, DC2 and Baye. They all have great purposes and roles. However, they are 4-7's right now. Some days, DC2's defense is a 2, some days Rak is a 4, etc. Can they grow and become much better? Absolutely. I'm not sure it's just this year yet.

But aren't you more confident in the centers than the 2? I'm not sure it's any of the 2's year this year. It's easier to move from forward to 2g, than from anywhere to center. The center of the zone takes some doing.

Last year, there was some playing of a forward at the 2, there was none of forward at the center (I don't consider Rak a forward). And for this coming year the center position has improved while the 2 spot has gotten worse.

And for your numerical example you would have to adjust for position. While Grant may be an 8.5-9 forward he is probably is just a 7 at center. Likewise, while CJ is a 10 at sf, he may be an 8 at sg. But the other sg's look to be around 3- 4. And if Roberson could register in as a 7-8 at forward the move could make sense.

 

[MCC]

You space things by letting CJ be the shooting guard. He would be the designated 3 pt launcher. In those instances he would be camped just outside the 3pt line. His % was excellent last year, the teams that don't respect that would pay.
The plan would be toss it in to Grant who draws the double, passes back out to CJ who puts up a 3. And then underneath is Roberson, DC2, and Grant going for the rebound. It has potential in my mind.

One of CJ's strengths is his bball IQ. I'm sure CJ would be amenable to trying it, it increases his pro value and highlights his scoring more.

Of course it is a long shot. But JB may consider it. In theory it seems like it may several advantages. It could shore up the 2 and if Roberson is as advertised, it gets him on the floor. JB did try it with Dirty.

Sarge, I enjoy your posts but respectfully disagree here. While I concur you could space the floor as you describe I think it's a suboptimal use of CJ. He is so cagey around the hoop; I suspect he gets 3 - 4 buckets a game via sneaky putbacks or positioning himself well for the offensive board. Plus it puts him in position to draw fouls, and he's a very good FT shooter. All of this puts tremendous pressure on the opposing team's D.

Of course it would be intriguing for CJ - he'd get to show off his perimeter skills to scouts - but I'm most concerned with best and highest use of the players on the floor and translating that into Ws. JB tried JS at the 2 because his strengths are (a) shooting threes and (b) dunking in transition. He wasn't known to pound the offensive boards. In sum we were playing to JS strengths anyway, and if he was capable of bothering opposing G's at the top of the zone, even better.

I guess I just don't see the value add here if we try the experiment with CJ.

 

[CaptainSyracuse]

Yeah, a bit, and so did Raf Addison. He's had a tendency to get skilled guys for their height all along, and 3 forwards on the floor has popped up when the talent fit. The Leo-Red Bruin-Dale Shackleford teams were also a 3 SF team.

Shack didn't play on the bruin and santifer teams.

 

[Lawrinson14]

A 6-8, 2-G with no right hand dribbling ability. Yeah, I'm going to say that this likely won't ever happen.

Plus, why take a player out of his current position when he is an All-American caliber player there?

 

[Quazzum69]

Fair at the two is based on the assumption that Roberson will be great.

I highly doubt he will be as good as either Fair or Grant and he will most likely get "Boeheimed" because he is a freshman. Even if he is better than them at certain things, I doubt he will be as good in the zone, especially the trap in the corner, etc. We all know JB favors defense over offense and upperclassmen over freshman. If he is the real deal, the best use of resources would be to have a killer three man rotation a la Scoop/Waiters/Triche 2011-2012.

PS: When Fair gets drafted, it won't be as a shooting guard - he's a wing all the way.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Sarge, I enjoy your posts but respectfully disagree here. While I concur you could space the floor as you describe I think it's a suboptimal use of CJ. He is so cagey around the hoop; I suspect he gets 3 - 4 buckets a game via sneaky putbacks or positioning himself well for the offensive board. Plus it puts him in position to draw fouls, and he's a very good FT shooter. All of this puts tremendous pressure on the opposing team's D.

Of course it would be intriguing for CJ - he'd get to show off his perimeter skills to scouts - but I'm most concerned with best and highest use of the players on the floor and translating that into Ws. JB tried JS at the 2 because his strengths are (a) shooting threes and (b) dunking in transition. He wasn't known to pound the offensive boards. In sum we were playing to JS strengths anyway, and if he was capable of bothering opposing G's at the top of the zone, even better.

I guess I just don't see the value add here if we try the experiment with CJ.

I understand it's a long shot. It appears I fear our current sg situation more than most. That's why I'm hoping JB investigates this posibility.

Yes, the old CJ was good at the sneaky putbacks and positioning. But we don't need or want CJ to fall back into that role. That is a role that by all accounts is ideally suited for Roberson. We need a solid first option. Moving CJ to sg could be the impetus to installing the new mindset that will be needed from CJ.

The added value would come from this:
1. Roberson would get floor time. He according to many here is a real talent.
2. CJ would assume the role of option number 1, the prime scorer. He has the best shooting percentage and as a senior has earned the right. It would take him away from his comfort zone of sneaky points and thrust him into a starring role. He is our best candidate for stardom.
3. It would decrease the reliance on the other current, motley sg options. None of those guys seem ready.

Of course the downside is, it might not work. But if CJ could play the 2, this team could be awesome.
I would rather have CJ being option 1 with Roberson getting the sneaky putbacks, than Cooney launching air balls and CJ cleaning up the mess.

 

[Cusefan0307]

If James didn't play the two, cj isn't. Nothing in Jim boeheims recent coaching history suggest he will play cj there.
Some of us need to give Trevor a break. Hes going to get the bulk of the minutes at the 2. Boeheim has has already said that. Just because he didn't shoot well last year, doesn't mean he won't shoot well this year.