CJ at the 2, if Roberson is what some think?

[Sgt Cuse]

Before I replied, I went back and read the whole thread. There is no quote from JB stating he wants CJ to be prepared to play at the 2. CJ is not JB and if JB ever insinuates he would consider playing CJ there, he would only do so to light a fire under the 2 guards. I'm 99.999% certain that JB has no intention to ever play CJ at the 2. If you want to hold onto that .001% chance, than you're entirely welcome to.

And I don't blame people for not reading this whole thread. It's a crazy idea IMHO (as one poster stated, it's silly season right now) and the likelihood of it happening is so remote that most people probably figure it's not worth time reading about or discussing. You and some others feel differently. And you're entitled to your opinion of course. But expect to be challenged on it.

Ultimately, I only care about the success of the team. If your idea comes to fruition and the team succeeds, fantastic. I'll be happy to be proven wrong. But I think we'll have a very nice season with CJ playing his normal position and the 2 guards playing theirs. LGO!

I appreciate the civil response. But I still do hold people accountable for reading the thread if they are going to comment in it, even if they think it is crazy. If you feel the unlikely nature of this happening makes it not worth the time to read or discuss, then don't, just skip it.

I don't understand why you don't believe Donna's quote from CJ. Doesn't seem to me that CJ would make something up to a reporter about what his coach has said to him. That would be a really stupid thing for CJ to do, and I don't think CJ is stupid. Do you?

And when you say there is no quote from JB, what about the piece in Donna's article that says "Jim Boeheim has said he will employ C.J.Fair and James Southerland at the top of the 2-3 zone" ? Do you really believe he didn't say that to her? Wouldn't it be career suicide for a beat reporter of the SU Orange to make up a conversation with the coach of the team?

 

[thebigeast44]

I appreciate the civil response. But I still do hold people accountable for reading the thread if they are going to comment in it, even if they think it is crazy. If you feel the unlikely nature of this happening makes it not worth the time to read or discuss, then don't, just skip it.

I don't understand why you don't believe Donna's quote from CJ. Doesn't seem to me that CJ would make something up to a reporter about what his coach has said to him. That would be a really stupid thing for CJ to do, and I don't think CJ is stupid. Do you?

And when you say there is no quote from JB, what about the piece in Donna's article that says "Jim Boeheim has said he will employ C.J.Fair and James Southerland at the top of the 2-3 zone" ? Do you really believe he didn't say that to her? Wouldn't it be career suicide for a beat reporter of the SU Orange to make up a conversation with the coach of the team?

Sgt - We're talking about the upcoming season. When JB states that he wants CJ to be prepared at the 2 and gives him practice time at that position and then plays him in a game at the 2, then I'll believe it. Until then, just because JB said he might consider playing James and CJ at the top of the zone last year and CJ said that JB told him to be prepared to play the 2 last year, does not lead me to believe in any way that JB is seriously considering using CJ at the 2 this year. That's where I'm coming from.

I wish they still made a college basketball video game so we could run a bunch of different lineups out there. I remember the fun I had playing one that had a code which enabled the announcers to call out the players real names. I heard Gmac from 3 many times that year playing the game Cheers and LGO!

 

[AlaskaSU]

Why would you think that this year there is less of a need to shore up the two than last year? Are you saying that TC is more reliable than Triche? If JB had such thoughts last year he will certainly have them this year. Cooney shot 30 from the field and 20 from 3, probably one of the lowest percentages in div I. He had the lowest net points on the team, and for the Canada trip he also had the lowest net points. While it is too early to know what to expect from him, it is not too early to consider insurance options.

 

[orangefan13]

It would put our five best players on the floor. Teams like Duke, the Ville and Kentucky will require our best.

Agree, and if it is servicable JB is going to practice and consider it. Wrote the exact same thing earlier as well, against those elite 8 and final four caliber teams .

Furthermore,
Cooney is tearing it up in practice but averaging 3 ppg in games (and thats at SG a scoring position). If Roberson does the same though, he should get pulled from that position after 2 bad games for the rest of the season?
:bat:

This thread is about putting different offensive abilities on the floor to help the team and to make lineups better chemistry wise. That isn't far fetched, its wanting to win. We recruit 4 to 5 star kids that can play mulitiple positions. Gbinije and Cooney could both get 15 minutes per game apiece and there still we be over 15 minutes left for another 2g. Keita is a senior and he might only get around 15 mpg, nobody is benching Dajuan and giving Rak all his minutes at the four to give him 25. Cooney and Gbinije are only sophmores.

 

[Brooky03]

It's nice to dream, but this will never work.

1) Why give up on Cooney, Gbinije, and BJ so quickly?

2) Fair does not have nearly enough ballhandling ability to bring the ball up the court or dribble outside of the 3 point line and set up the offense. I love him to death but he is a good ballhandler for a forward, that's it. He doesn't cross up many forwards, so I doubt he will be able to beat any guards during a press or away from the basket.

3) You fill each position on the court with the best player at that position. You don't just toss your best five players out there and play them out of position. Cooney, Gbinije, and BJ give us more than enough chance at beating any top team, and I would say they give us a better chance than playing a forward at SG.

4) Roberson is a Frosh. How many Freshman have played significant minutes and had a significant impact with proven upperclassmen at their positions? How many have done so under Jim Boeheim? Roberson could be great, but would it be worth it to play 3 forwards (none of which have above average guard skills) just to get him on the floor? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[thebigeast44]

Why would you think that this year there is less of a need to shore up the two than last year? Are you saying that TC is more reliable than Triche? If JB had such thoughts last year he will certainly have them this year. Cooney shot 30 from the field and 20 from 3, probably one of the lowest percentages in div I. He had the lowest net points on the team, and for the Canada trip he also had the lowest net points. While it is too early to know what to expect from him, it is not too early to consider insurance options.

If JB had such thoughts last year, he did not act on them. Thus, I do not expect him to do act on any similar thoughts this year - which I do not think he has anyways. We have multiple options at the 2 this year - Mike G, Cooney, Patterson, BJ etc. So I believe JB sees no need to place CJ out of position at the 2 for any reason.

 

[orangefan13]

JB didn't have the team to act on it last year. We needed Triche at the two. And MCW, Southerland and Fair in the triangle as well. There was no substituting with that lineup at SG or PG.

This year Roberson and BJ are fighting for minutes. This roberson guy put up 50 points in a game not to long ago. CJ never had better then half of that in highschool and by comparison CJ was a beast as a frehsmen he deserved around 15 mpg because of his offensive ability.

Roberson and BJ are both in talks like 11-12 southerland. You push and push with them. However you can't push with roberson as much at forward, because grant and CJ are going to be THAT good. Therefore you have to look elsewhere. I like the thought of Grant at the 5 offensively, but imo, we have a bigger need at sg then Center by a longshot right now. Teams might find a mismatch at center against us but it won't be a big one, SG some guys will find a Huge one. There might be one center in the nation who could (Mitch Mcgary), vs 8-15 sg's who could.

There is a big difference between a player who picks his spots offensively and one who looks to score at will and is successfull. BJ or Roberson could be the latter. You don't sit that for anything other then chemistry issues.

 

[LennX6]

I think it's clear our two best players are CJ and Jerami based on what they've proven in games, practices, our system, camps, etc. If my hunch is right, Tyler Ennis will quickly jump into that group and become part of our "Big Three."

Come crunch time, those three surely will be on the court and the three leaders in minutes. Then, depending on how DC2/Rak play, one of those two will get the mins at the 5 and share the rest with Baye. We know that JB loves what Baye brings to the 5 on D, so he'll average about 17 mins a game but it's a good chance will be on the court during crunch time (unless DC2 or Rak really take a big leap).

So, that really only leaves one other position, the 2. We certainly need Cooney or G to step up and get some quality mins/production and hope that happens. However, if neither excel, and Roberson is the player that many think he is, I wonder if JB ends up finding a way to get CJ, Jerami and both Tylers on the court, to go along with a big? If we have great basketball talent in CJ/Grant/Roberson, and just good basketball talent in Cooney/G, I think you try to maximum said talent and get them on the court.

JB made a real effort to try James at the two and he was more mechanical than CJ. So, I think he wonders the same thing. It doesn't have to be 10-15 mins at the 2, it could be 3-4 mins each half, esp. during crunch time.

A backline of the Tyler R, Baye and Grant would be one of best interior D's in a looong time. CJ and Tyler E up top would be long, athletic and could rebound from the G position. Sure, we'd have issues with a zone but who says we aren't going to even with G or Cooney?

Couple points...
1. Tyler Ennis, from what I saw in Canada, especially the last 10 min of the Carelton game, IS one of the big 3. (My impression: Looks to me a little bit "Pearl-esque" in his driving the lane ability and he looks tough as nails.
2. I believe the center rotation will by the end of the year be mainly Rak and Baye. Coleman despite his 25 point against the Ottawa team , I believe will never be anything else than a guys that gets minutes against Cornell and Canisius, but wont get out of his chair for the Dukes, NC, even St. Johns. We will REALLY love Baye by the time it gets to March. Baye is starting to play like an athletic Craig Forth (that's not bad at all).
3. Total conjecture based off things I read, but I do not get the impression that JB gets hung up on "the 2" , "the 5" "point guard" etc. Splitting hairs, but he's matching players with floor areas. What I am getting to is that I would bet JB would entertain an out of the box scenario in order to get more talent on the floor. He did that some with Todd Burgan if I recall correctly. But he was a tall, athletic swingman, that you normally wouldn't play the off-guard, but he did.
4. If I recall JB played Southerland at Guard early in the year. Not sure , but those tryouts perse, went away when we came to the realization Coleman wasn't cutting it as a defensive force under the rim. So James went back down low and stayed. Didn't play the greatest D but he did add height and had the knack for getting a block, or turnover at the most opportune time.
5. CJ theoretically could be a backcourt guy, but would be afraid the more right-sized guard would shed him. Just not quick enough for that real estate. That being said, he has such a nice inside game, always around the ball near the basket, I'd hate to give that up, without being more sure of what we would get.

 

[thebigeast44]

From Andy Katz on the ESPN website today: Tyler Roberson isn’t listed on the Syracuse website roster yet, but he has been cleared to play. And that’s great news for Syracuse and the attempt to unseat ACC favorite Duke in the first year of being in the league. "He’s obviously a good player," said Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim of the 6-7 forward from Union, N.J. "He gives us some depth at forward with C.J. [Fair] and Jerami [Grant]. It gives us three athletic, quick forwards. We’re excited about that." Boeheim said the news Roberson is eligible has bigger ramifications. "Long-range, that’s the key," said Boeheim of a replacement for Fair once he’s done with his eligibility in the spring of 2014. "Next year, he’ll be really, really good by then. He’s a really good player. He’s pretty quick."

Forwards all of them - and that's where they will play - Roberson can back up at both forward positions and CJ will be an All-American caliber player at forward - he will not play at the 2.

 

[Orange2389]

The idea that CJ, or Roberson at the two is crazy. CJ has proven that he is an all-american caliber player for us, leave him be. Roberson appears ready to challenge minutes at the 3 0r 4. Love that mini competition. I see Roberson having the super sub effect on this team this season.

At the 2 guard, we have an emerging talent in Trevor, while throwing in Silent G and Patterson. So lets recap :

Forwards- CJ Grant Roberson Rak Coleman- thats 4 players for two spots. Let them fight for the spots.

Guards- Silent G Patterson Trevor BJ- thats 4 players for one spot. let them fight for the spot.

We are in great shape.

 

[orangefan13]

If Roberson becomes the type of scorer that Fair and Grant are it could happen. But it still needs to prove it can hold defensively, and is able to set up a half court offense.

 

[two3zone]

Couple points...
1. Tyler Ennis, from what I saw in Canada, especially the last 10 min of the Carelton game, IS one of the big 3. (My impression: Looks to me a little bit "Pearl-esque" in his driving the lane ability and he looks tough as nails.
2. I believe the center rotation will by the end of the year be mainly Rak and Baye. Coleman despite his 25 point against the Ottawa team , I believe will never be anything else than a guys that gets minutes against Cornell and Canisius, but wont get out of his chair for the Dukes, NC, even St. Johns. We will REALLY love Baye by the time it gets to March. Baye is starting to play like an athletic Craig Forth (that's not bad at all).
3. Total conjecture based off things I read, but I do not get the impression that JB gets hung up on "the 2" , "the 5" "point guard" etc. Splitting hairs, but he's matching players with floor areas. What I am getting to is that I would bet JB would entertain an out of the box scenario in order to get more talent on the floor. He did that some with Todd Burgan if I recall correctly. But he was a tall, athletic swingman, that you normally wouldn't play the off-guard, but he did.
4. If I recall JB played Southerland at Guard early in the year. Not sure , but those tryouts perse, went away when we came to the realization Coleman wasn't cutting it as a defensive force under the rim. So James went back down low and stayed. Didn't play the greatest D but he did add height and had the knack for getting a block, or turnover at the most opportune time.
5. CJ theoretically could be a backcourt guy, but would be afraid the more right-sized guard would shed him. Just not quick enough for that real estate. That being said, he has such a nice inside game, always around the ball near the basket, I'd hate to give that up, without being more sure of what we would get.

Love Baye? I don't know, I appreciate him but will never love his game. While you can't teach size in basketball, seems like you can't teach the guy anything else to the guy either because he is the exact player he was as a freshman. I can't think of one part of his game that makes me say, "Oh my god, I love BMK, we would be so lost without him." To me an athletic Craig Forth is just as useless as Craig Forth, was he on the national title team? Sure, we won in spite of him, not because of him. Would have won if Billy Celuck was playing center.

 

[tee1222]

Love Baye? I don't know, I appreciate him but will never love his game. While you can't teach size in basketball, seems like you can't teach the guy anything else to the guy either because he is the exact player he was as a freshman. I can't think of one part of his game that makes me say, "Oh my god, I love BMK, we would be so lost without him." To me an athletic Craig Forth is just as useless as Craig Forth, was he on the national title team? Sure, we won in spite of him, not because of him. Would have won if Billy Celuck was playing center.

With all respect, I disagree. I love Keita's interior defense and hustle. Not sure how others saw last year's tourney, but I remember and posted many specific instances where he made it really tough for opposing big men to get any decent shot off down low. Not necessarily a block, but time after time, guys took really bad shots due to his position and hands up high in the guy's grill or better. You have to watch full game replays of last March to see what I mean, but this was invaluable.

 

[two3zone]

With all respect, I disagree. I love Keita's interior defense and hustle. Not sure how others saw last year's tourney, but I remember and posted many specific instances where he made it really tough for opposing big men to get any decent shot off down low. Not necessarily a block, but time after time, guys took really bad shots due to his position and hands up high in the guy's grill or better. You have to watch full game replays of last March to see what I mean, but this was invaluable.

I did watch each game a couple of times, I don't disagree with you, but I think some of those invaluable plays could have been made by any other guy his size or Christmas. One thing I remember during March Madness and Big East tournaments was the missed dunks/layups. I don't think any player in their entire Syracuse career missed as many has he did in that one stretch of games. It's easy to say take the good with the bad, but in the end I think his offensive liabilities totally outweigh his defensive capabilities. He is putrid on the offensive end, probably worse than Forth.

 

[moqui]

Can't believe this thread has gone on so long . . . silly season indeed.

try out this thought experiment:

imagine you are an opposing coach of moderate ability, facing a lineup of
Ennis
Fair
Grant
Roberson
and one of Coleman/Roc/BMK

what do you do?

 

[realorange]

Two3zone needs to understand what Baye and Craig Forth contributed to the Syracuse basketball program. Both have been stalwarts on the defensive end because they are smart and good "quarterbacks" of the zone. While neither were/are high level offensive players they have fewer errors than others at their position.
For Two3zone to feel he knows more than JB shows how little he really understands about BB.
On a personal level, I find it highly insulting to refer to any of our players in the manner he has chosen. We don't need this kind of fan on this board.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Can't believe this thread has gone on so long . . . silly season indeed.

try out this thought experiment:

imagine you are an opposing coach of moderate ability, facing a lineup of
Ennis
Fair
Grant
Roberson
and one of Coleman/Roc/BMK

what do you do?

Politely excuse yourself so you can change your shorts?

 

[Gabjon]

Can't believe this thread has gone on so long . . . silly season indeed.

try out this thought experiment:

imagine you are an opposing coach of moderate ability, facing a lineup of
Ennis
Fair
Grant
Roberson
and one of Coleman/Roc/BMK

what do you do?

Easy! You press! Get the ball out of Ennis' hands and see if Fair, Grant or Roberson can bring the ball out the court with a guard in their shorts. Mike is an inch shorter than Fair and he is a Guard! Roberson needs to wait his turn this year!

 

[LennX6]

Can't believe this thread has gone on so long . . . silly season indeed.

try out this thought experiment:

imagine you are an opposing coach of moderate ability, facing a lineup of
Ennis
Fair
Grant
Roberson
and one of Coleman/Roc/BMK

what do you do?

Play 4 guards. And hope you can outquick and outshoot them. Noone outside of North Carolina ,that we play, if then, can matchup with that.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

[quote="two3zone, post: 745481, Sure, we won in spite of him, not because of him. .[/quote]

One of the dumbest things on this board in a long time
Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

 

[two3zone]

[quote="two3zone, post: 745481, Sure, we won in spite of him, not because of him. .

One of the dumbest things on this board in a long time
Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2[/quote]

So Craig Forth was a main cog on the championship team? We wouldn't have won without him? If that's what you're saying then that's pretty dumb.

 

[tee1222]

I did watch each game a couple of times, I don't disagree with you, but I think some of those invaluable plays could have been made by any other guy his size or Christmas. One thing I remember during March Madness and Big East tournaments was the missed dunks/layups. I don't think any player in their entire Syracuse career missed as many has he did in that one stretch of games. It's easy to say take the good with the bad, but in the end I think his offensive liabilities totally outweigh his defensive capabilities. He is putrid on the offensive end, probably worse than Forth.

I'm not saying always, since we've seen the likes of Rick Jackson, AO, DC1, Seikaly and a few others tear it up on the offensive end. But given our strengths in the past few years, our zone and defensive dominance has been our bread and butter. DC2, sure he might come along and I'm all for that. But our strength lies in our defense and it seems the center is the most vital part of this strength.

Rak shows promise with his athleticism and has blocked dunks and looked pretty good rebounding the ball before the foul trouble in August. But right now, if I could get anything out of the 5 spot, I will take stellar defensive play from our "last line of defense". That's Keita. At the same time, I do appreciate your frustration with his lack of conversion on the offensive end. He looked a little bit more solid in exhibition, but we'll see what he does against seasoned ACC teams in league play.

My money is still on Keita in crunch time. But I hope Rak or DC2 step up. They both have a higher ceiling imo. Look at Keita as our closer until proven otherwise.

 

[two3zone]

I'm not saying always, since we've seen the likes of Rick Jackson, AO, DC1, Seikaly and a few others tear it up on the offensive end. But given our strengths in the past few years, our zone and defensive dominance has been our bread and butter. DC2, sure he might come along and I'm all for that. But our strength lies in our defense and it seems the center is the most vital part of this strength.

Rak shows promise with his athleticism and has blocked dunks and looked pretty good rebounding the ball before the foul trouble in August. But right now, if I could get anything out of the 5 spot, I will take stellar defensive play from our "last line of defense". That's Keita. At the same time, I do appreciate your frustration with his lack of conversion on the offensive end. He looked a little bit more solid in exhibition, but we'll see what he does against seasoned ACC teams in league play.

My money is still on Keita in crunch time. But I hope Rak or DC2 step up. They both have a higher ceiling imo. Look at Keita as our closer until proven otherwise.

I too would take stellar defensive play from the 5, but I don't think Kieta delivers stellar D. I think he provides adequate D and while he may be equal to Rak at the 5 on the defensive end and ahead of Coleman on the defensive end doesn't make him a savior, or make me love him. I think he is a filler and nothing more, not going to give him props for having size playing the 5 in a stellar zone defense. I just think the praise is too high for a pedestrian player.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Love Baye? I don't know, I appreciate him but will never love his game. While you can't teach size in basketball, seems like you can't teach the guy anything else to the guy either because he is the exact player he was as a freshman. I can't think of one part of his game that makes me say, "Oh my god, I love BMK, we would be so lost without him." To me an athletic Craig Forth is just as useless as Craig Forth, was he on the national title team? Sure, we won in spite of him, not because of him. Would have won if Billy Celuck was playing center.

Perception is different from reality. Keita's lifetime percentage is 63%. He is our most efficient offensive player. My perception is that he has the skill to take more shots if wanted to.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

So Craig Forth was a main cog on the championship team? We wouldn't have won without him? If that's what you're saying then that's pretty dumb.

No one can answer that definitively. What we do know is this (from the SU Althetics site):

At SU: Forth started all 136 games of his collegiate career...His 136 consecutive starts ranked first among active Division I players this year...He completed his SU tenure ranked in a fourth-place tie on the games-played list...Forth finished seventh in career blocks at Syracuse with 205...He became the first men's basketball player to earn multiple Academic All-America honors...He has earned Dean's List recognition in each of his seven completed semesters.

I'll take a kid like him any day...