Coach says recruiting

[RF2044]

I love the depleted roster argument, yet Marrone can't recruit over any of them. We just need him to stockplie his recruits.. Great! and I am tough to follow. What. Good recruiters get it done. I honestly think recruiting is Doug's biggest weakness.

Go re-read my post. It generally takes 2-3 years for football recruits to get up to speed and mature physically to the point where they can compete with more experienced players. That means Marrone's first class. In that class, the only two skilled position players he brought in were Lemon and Loeb. Lemon is starting, and having a decent year.

Look, we need to add better skilled talent--no argument there. Agree 100%.

But the notion that Marrone's recruits should have already replaced the upperclassmen ahead of them isn't a very good argument. Most of his first recruiting class is in fact starting. See for yourself:

2009 Recruiting Class--Marrone's first class

 

[GoSU96]

I love the depleted roster argument, yet Marrone can't recruit over any of them. We just need him to stockplie his recruits.. Great! and I am tough to follow. What. Good recruiters get it done. I honestly think recruiting is Doug's biggest weakness.

Dude, "can't recruit over any of them", other than OL, DT, LB, DB's, WR, FB. Hell, what do you call grabbing Paulus as a free agent for one year?

There are four Robinson players starting on offense, the QB, TB, TE, one WR. There are two others in the skill position rotation, Stevens at TE and Graham at WR. That's it. Chew is losing time every week. If Gulley didn't get hurt the same would be going for Bailey.

On defense it's the two starting DE's, one LB, one 2nd unit DT, and a 2nd unit Corner. That's it.

So don't keep going with this crap, the idea that the roster hasn't been turned over is ridiculous.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Nah, you weren't just banging on facilities, you were talking about the talent level, the lack of discipline and accountability in the program, etc. And you didn't address the question. But whatever.

Not true, prove it. I think GROB left some guys. I think the D guys last year were exceptional.. tremendous..

As I have said the facilities suck, bottom 2-3 in the BCS, that is true.

Why have I turned on Marrone? Becuase he is a big dope. He said up tempo offense, no huddle, more plays, etc etc and all I see is a guy retreating into a shell in what is year 3.. I am so freaking tired of it. Put your gd offense out there and run with it. If this is your offense, then you should be fired. People piled on GROB and I did too for flashing the rings when his Defense stunk.. All I heard was about the great New Orleans offense, well where the F is it? We all know NAssib is limited, put a kid in there that can run it. He saw Nassib play almost 3 years ago. Plenty of time to find a qb that can run the offense. Here we are year 3 talking about as if Marrone just showed up. All we here are rumors of when Doug will reveal his true offense?? Like when the IPAD 3 comes out!!! He has an identiy crisis or none whatsoever

Look I have met Doug, he is a very nice man and wants to succed more than anyone, I get that but for a guy that is suppose to be an offensive coach to be putting this product on the field in year 3 is pretty much a failure, IMO. Good coaches establish an identity and then hang their hat on it, come hook or crook. Beamer- specials. Saban- defense. RichRod- spread. Chip Kelly, crazy tempo, spread. Leach- air raid,out of the box whack job. Mack Brown- crazy recruiter. Erickson- pro set. Pelini- defense. Golden- dynamic recruiter. Joe Pa-- nevermind, even a guy like Fitzgerald at NW, tough kids, innovative offense, risk taker. I know Marrone beat him, clearly he must be better that Fitz. My point is What is Doug's identity? a grinder? who knows They all stand for something- Not multiple nonsense. If somebody mentions NW record versus ours, I will ing snap. Big 10... etc etc
I feel like I did waiting for GROB to put a good defense out there in year 3 or 4. I am just tired of it. Somebody tell me what type of coach Doug is?

 

[jr4750]

Not true, prove it. I think GROB left some guys. I think the D guys last year were exceptional.. tremendous..

As I have said the facilities suck, bottom 2-3 in the BCS, that is true.

Why have I turned on Marrone? Becuase he is a big dope. He said up tempo offense, no huddle, more plays, etc etc and all I see is a guy retreating into a shell in what is year 3.. I am so freaking tired of it. Put your gd offense out there and run with it. If this is your offense, then you should be fired. People piled on GROB and I did too for flashing the rings when his Defense stunk.. All I heard was about the great New Orleans offense, well where the F is it? We all know NAssib is limited, put the kid in there that can run it. He saw Nassib play almost 3 years ago. Plenty of time to find a qb that can run the offense. Here we are year 3 talking about as if Marrone just showed up.

Look I have met Doug, he is a very nice man and wants to succed more than anyone, I get that but for a guy that is suppose to be an offensive coach to be putting this product on the field in year 3 is pretty much a failure, IMO. Good coaches establish an identity and then hang their hat on it, come hook or crook. Beamer- specials. Saban- defense. RichRod- spread. Chip Kelly, crazy tempo, spread. Leach- air raid,out of the box whack job. Mack Brown- crazy recruiter. Erickson- pro set. Pelini- defense. Golden- dynamic recruiter. Joe Pa-- nevermind, even a guy like Fitzgerald at NW, tough kids, innovative offense, risk taker. I know Marrone beat him, clearly he must be better that Fitz. My point is What is Doug's identity? a grinder? who knows They all stand for something- Not multiple nonsense. If somebody mentions NW record versus ours, I will ******* snap. Big 10... etc etc
I feel like I did waiting for GROB to put a good defense out there in year 3 or 4.

This final paragraph I'm with you. I too have been waiting for that identity to show itself. It seems the great guys go in and make it happen with the talent they have, the system trumps the limitations. Not being a football coach, perhaps I'm missing the key reason that hasn't happened for Doug. I was on the band wagon your riding on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday as well. I jumped back on the Doug train today. This week will be big for him. A must win home game, against a faltering USF squad that is forced to travel North for the second time in a week. No excuses in this one.

We have rarely surprised in a positive way in years. WVU this year is the baseline performance I hinge this argument on. That's not just with Doug, but for years back even into P's tenure. I'd like to see more consistent play in that regard, as I'm sure we all would. Not scoring on UCONN early after causing 5 TO's shaved a month or two off my life with anger...

On a side note, how do you guys put together such long dissertations while still being able to work? I can barely even read the main page, save going into a thread and analyzing the debate?!!!

 

[xc84]

Not true, prove it. I think GROB left some guys. I think the D guys last year were exceptional.. tremendous..

Yeah...'cept Grob played them at RB.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

I'm not at all sold on Hackett, but then I was never a fan of his father. I'd really like to know who Doug admires out there as a successful college offensive coordinator who is running a system similar to what he envisions for Syracuse. (Key words: college OC, successful, similar system). Once Doug has IDed the guy I'd like to see SU fork over the cash to go get him and bring him to the Hill. Young Hackett can learn the ropes as a QB or specials coach.

 

[Millhouse]

Well, I'll agree that counting the previous 2 losses, and losing the next 3...sadly, I do think that losing 5 in a row to finish out the season qualifies as a total collapse.

yeah, you're right. a collapse is a collapse. i guess i'm just saying that it's a quite possible collapse

 

[jkm54]

yeah, you're right. a collapse is a collapse. i guess i'm just saying that it's a quite possible collapse

Hopefully one that doesn't exist in reality.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

I'll self-edit here, but suffice it to say I've never seen a person have such a singularly-focused man-crush on a person in my life. I mean, it's OK, but I guess I'm not sure where it comes from. It's ... odd. Are you family with P?

OrangeNasty.

 

[GoSU96]

yeah, you're right. a collapse is a collapse. i guess i'm just saying that it's a quite possible collapse

I didn't think it would happen, but it's much more likely than a three win run.

Just reality.

 

[Scooch]

Not true, prove it...

Question: if SU racks up 375+ yards and wins 35-14 Friday night are you back in the bandwagon?

 

[jkm54]

Not true, prove it.

Another question: If last year, we went 6-6, and this year went 7-5, do you think you would have the same opinion you do now? I'm sure you'll say yes, but do you think that last year's results which were reliant on strong senior leadership has sped up your expectations?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Question: if SU racks up 375+ yards and wins 35-14 Friday night are you back in the bandwagon?

Honestly, no. I think Doug's upside is very limited. That is my point, all BS aside. His binder lacks vision to be great, IMO. Respectable, sure but I want to be better than that and I know everybody else does to. I just think that Marrone will never get us there, I just do. Take all the back and forth and put it aside, and that is the way I feel. I just don't see it. I don't think Marrone will ever be talked about as a "great" college football coach. He will be a tough guy to get rid of because of his SU ties and i think we will always be at least in the 5-8 category if you include bowl games, I just don't see a huge upside, too conservative. In the ACC, it could be worse because we will have to compete at a higher level. If we win 35-14, I will say that the staff and team did a great job on this specific week for sure, come back and play two good games. Week in week out...I expect 1-2 bad games every year, it happens but I have seen way too much bad football thus year for a coach 3 years in to his tenure.

Hey, I am hoping for a 3 game run but one at a time, #6 would be great, 7 would be as well. Don't really want to play in the Beef Bowl

Next year is a big year for the program for sure

 

[Scooch]

Honestly, no. I think Doug's upside is very limited. That is my point, all BS aside. His binder lacks vision to be great, IMO. Respectable, sure but I want to be better than that and I know everybody else does to. I just think that Marrone will never get us there, I just do. Take all the back and forth and put it aside, and that is the way I feel. I just don't see it. I don't think Marrone will ever be talked about as a "great" college football coach. He will be a tough guy to get rid of because of his SU ties and i think we will always be at least in the 5-8 category if you include bowl games, I just don't see a huge upside, too conservative. In the ACC, it could be worse because we will have to compete at a higher level.

OK, fine. I don't know how anyone can definitively come to that conclusion 34 games into his tenure (where he's 17-17) and coming off the worst 4 year stretch of SU football ever. But that's your perogative.

I have many concerns, and I'm not saying the guy will definitively be a raging success. But I've seen too many coaches and team "gel" or "click" after struggling initially to think its impossible to happen here.

 

[Millhouse]

OK, fine. I don't know how anyone can definitively come to that conclusion 34 games into his tenure (where he's 17-17) and coming off the worst 4 year stretch of SU football ever. But that's your perogative.

I have many concerns, and I'm not saying the guy will definitively be a raging success. But I've seen too many coaches and team "gel" or "click" after struggling initially to think its impossible to happen here.

Marrone wills his teams to be tough enough to limit the downside. But he hasn't shown to be a dynamic offensive guy in college who can just plug whoever into his system and have even average success. So in order to be great, he's going to need to be a great recruiter. I'm a wait and see guy about that but it doesn't bother me that other people think he's not a great recruiter.

my attitude is that this is such a long process anyway that a guy with limited upside is fine for a while. he's not going to coach forever so he might retire by the time we make a leap. he'll drive me nuts but he's good enough. but i'll continue to pray that he finds a functional qb, a good college OC and manages to keep Shafer because that's the only hope he has for proving the limited upside crowd wrong

 

[IthacaBarrel]

OK, fine. I don't know how anyone can definitively come to that conclusion 34 games into his tenure (where he's 17-17) and coming off the worst 4 year stretch of SU football ever. But that's your perogative.

I have many concerns, and I'm not saying the guy will definitively be a raging success. But I've seen too many coaches and team "gel" or "click" after struggling initially to think its impossible to happen here.

hey, that is fine. Different opinions for sure. i just don't see it, unless Doug can take a new approach to offense and quit trying to be perfect. When an offense is productive, it's rare that teams sit and talk about one catch that isn't made, ie; Provo's drop versus WVU. Hey, I could be all wet on this but I don't think I will be, I just haven't seen anything from Doug other than a few isolated moments that make me think he will ever be great. You can't grind out close game after close game, it just won't work. I think the NFL is too deep in his roots at this point.

You don't see Graham running Wannstedt's systems because he hasn't recruited for them at Pitt, he surely has taken his lumps this year. Again, it comes back to having an identity and hanging your hat on it, right or wrong, pass or fail instead of waffling trying to white knuckle everything

 

[kingottoiii]

IB

I am not sure if the fire Marrone thread was started by you or Tristy. I know it was deleted. But in it I mentioned that of the candidates to replace GRob, most would have been a lot worse than Marrone. Some would have been worse. Others would be around the same, but slightly worse. The only four that woulda been better IMO are Golden, Leech, Strong, and Jones.

I think we may have been able to get Leech because he was at odds with Tech for a long time. However we couldn't afford him. Jones just started at SMU. He had only been there one year. Would he have left? I don't think so. Not for that SU program that GRob left. Now had we fired GRob a year early like we should have, I think we may have gotten Jones. Bad job by TGD and company.

I think Strong was available for us. However he is a guy would would been gone before his contract was over. I think he would have left us in a really good spot. And maybe we could have hired his DC to step in as a replacement and hoped nothing changed (ala Mac to P). But taking a short term solution is risky.

That leaves Golden, who I felt at the time was our best bet and still think he was our best bet. So IMO Marrone was the 2nd best guy we could have hired. It isn't like we missed out. Also you have to take into account our move to the ACC. If we hired Gill or Locksley, it is possible that the ACC said screw SU their FB is done. So you have to give Marrone credit there. Things certainly coulda been worse.

Now back to Marrone. I agree his recruiting is lacking any play makers. He hasn't seemed to have any misses yet, as most kids have been contributors. So you cannot say he is a bad recruiter. But he certainly isn't a good one. Even GRob brought in playmakers.

I also agree that his coaching is lacking. IMO we will always be fighting to make a Bowl year in and year out. I see him as a 6-8 W HC every year. Which is where we were from 1999-2004 and got Coach P fired. It sucks because Marrone being an alumn will not be let go if he caps out at that number.

Unless he starts making changes to his staff and his O philosophy, I do not see him succeeding here. He won't fail, but he won't succeed. IMO succeeding is averaging 5-4 in the ACC and 8-5 overall. I think it is crazy to think that a guy who can't go 4-3 in this year's BE can achieve that coaching the same way he has so far.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Marrone wills his teams to be tough enough to limit the downside. But he hasn't shown to be a dynamic offensive guy in college who can just plug whoever into his system and have even average success. So in order to be great, he's going to need to be a great recruiter. I'm a wait and see guy about that but it doesn't bother me that other people think he's not a great recruiter.

my attitude is that this is such a long process anyway that a guy with limited upside is fine for a while. he's not going to coach forever so he might retire by the time we make a leap. he'll drive me nuts but he's good enough. but i'll continue to pray that he finds a functional qb, a good college OC and manages to keep Shafer because that's the only hope he has for proving the limited upside crowd wrong

I would say that is fair, I am not optimistic about his recruiting though, until I see kids with multiple BCS offers as more of the norm, I won't be that optimistic. Noy woulda coulda shoulda recruits, actual offers. When teams don't recruit well, people go into the excellent talet evaluator mode. I don't expect 4 and 5 star kids all the time and I know we will always have some diamonds so to speak and some kids on the development side, but playmakers can play in a hurry, happens everywhere else. I am fine with the New York athletes but we need to do better here, IMO. I also think the offense as a whole when our best athlete on the field is arguably the quarter back or is a dead accurate passer. You can live with some bad throws if your qb is buying time and also making plays with his feet. O Line will look a lot better too.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

IB

I am not sure if the fire Marrone thread was started by you or Tristy. I know it was deleted. But in it I mentioned that of the candidates to replace GRob, most would have been a lot worse than Marrone. Some would have been worse. Others would be around the same, but slightly worse. The only four that woulda been better IMO are Golden, Leech, Strong, and Jones.

I think we may have been able to get Leech because he was at odds with Tech for a long time. However we couldn't afford him. Jones just started at SMU. He had only been there one year. Would he have left? I don't think so. Not for that SU program that GRob left. Now had we fired GRob a year early like we should have, I think we may have gotten Jones. Bad job by TGD and company.

I think Strong was available for us. However he is a guy would would been gone before his contract was over. I think he would have left us in a really good spot. And maybe we could have hired his DC to step in as a replacement and hoped nothing changed (ala Mac to P). But taking a short term solution is risky.

That leaves Golden, who I felt at the time was our best bet and still think he was our best bet. So IMO Marrone was the 2nd best guy we could have hired. It isn't like we missed out. Also you have to take into account our move to the ACC. If we hired Gill or Locksley, it is possible that the ACC said screw SU their FB is done. So you have to give Marrone credit there. Things certainly coulda been worse.

Now back to Marrone. I agree his recruiting is lacking any play makers. He hasn't seemed to have any misses yet, as most kids have been contributors. So you cannot say he is a bad recruiter. But he certainly isn't a good one. Even GRob brought in playmakers.

I also agree that his coaching is lacking. IMO we will always be fighting to make a Bowl year in and year out. I see him as a 6-8 W HC every year. Which is where we were from 1999-2004 and got Coach P fired. It sucks because Marrone being an alumn will not be let go if he caps out at that number.

Unless he starts making changes to his staff and his O philosophy, I do not see him succeeding here. He won't fail, but he won't succeed. IMO succeeding is averaging 5-4 in the ACC and 8-5 overall. I think it is crazy to think that a guy who can't go 4-3 in this year's BE can achieve that coaching the same way he has so far.

Good post. What if Stanford never hired Harbaugh because they knew he wanted to be an NFL coach? he left and they plugged him in with Gray (his name I believe) That is the thing, nobody even knows the coaches name their. If a good coach has good coordinators and when that good head coach leaves a good program behind, it isn't that difficult to replace him if the cupoboards are stocked and the systems are in place. In another sport, look at Cornell lacrosse, Tambroni left and their new guy did just fine last year. Good coaches who go on to other jobs leave a stable program behind. Next man up so to speak, especially if they have solid coordinators.

 

[Scooch]

Most coaches are not "great". Most are average and ultimately get fired. So if that's how Marrone turns out I'm not sure anyone should be crowing about how they KNEW IT.

Predicting a coach won't be great and will get fired is like predicting it will snow in CNY in December.

 

[jkm54]

Good post. What if Stanford never hired Harbaugh because they knew he wanted to be an NFL coach? he left and they plugged him in with Gray (his name I believe) That is the thing, nobody even knows the coaches name their. If a good coach has good coordinators and when that good head coach leaves a good program behind, it isn't that difficult to replace him if the cupoboards are stocked and the systems are in place. In another sport, look at Cornell lacrosse, Tambroni left and their new guy did just fine last year. Good coaches who go on to other jobs leave a stable program behind. Next man up so to speak, especially if they have solid coordinators.

I would agree with that if there's a solid foundation already built, which I think you would agree we don't have at this time. Maybe Marrone's the foundation guy that can't bring us to the next level. If he puts together a couple of winning seasons, then maybe we start to look more attractive to a guy looking to climb the ladder that is a more dynamic coach. With the program the way it is right now, I would be afraid that rotating coaches would not allow us to build that type of foundation that would help solidify the program. Fair?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I would agree with that if there's a solid foundation already built, which I think you would agree we don't have at this time. Maybe Marrone's the foundation guy that can't bring us to the next level. If he puts together a couple of winning seasons, then maybe we start to look more attractive to a guy looking to climb the ladder that is a more dynamic coach. With the program the way it is right now, I would be afraid that rotating coaches would not allow us to build that type of foundation that would help solidy the program. Fair?

Yep. no argument there and I agree the job was not a great looking one when Marrone took it for sure and I agree with Otto the only guy we probably could have hired but didn't was Al Golden

 

[jkm54]

Yep. no argument there and I agree the job was not a great looking one when Marrone took it for sure and I agree with Otto the only guy we probably could have hired but didn't was Al Golden

I'll tell you...if Marrone isn't the guy that can take us to the next level, and all he does is build a solid foundation for a potentially more dynamic coach, I will forever celebrate the guy for pulling us back from the brink. It'll undoubtedly be tricky since he's an alum were he to have to part ways with the University, but he'll be ok in my book. With that said, I hope he is the guy, and I'm not giving up on him just yet.

 

[Chip]

Dude, "can't recruit over any of them", other than OL, DT, LB, DB's, WR, FB. Hell, what do you call grabbing Paulus as a free agent for one year?

There are four Robinson players starting on offense, the QB, TB, TE, one WR. There are two others in the skill position rotation, Stevens at TE and Graham at WR. That's it. Chew is losing time every week. If Gulley didn't get hurt the same would be going for Bailey.

On defense it's the two starting DE's, one LB, one 2nd unit DT, and a 2nd unit Corner. That's it.

So don't keep going with this crap, the idea that the roster hasn't been turned over is ridiculous.

I'll slap my wrist for this one when I'm done. But as of now, the biggest achievement by this staff has been by using the other guy's recruits on D. The concept of turning over the roster on D is kind of ridiculous. It's year 3, you'd expect turnover by now just in terms of time.

Offense, yes, every physical position was turned over quickly, i.e. the OL. Not so much on the skill positions. A few are getting run now, West being the most notable. Lemon is kinda coach neutral in my mind. Gulley was getting more time because Marrone realized that using just 1 RB for the entire year wasn't really going to work.

Look at the stats, 100% of the passing yards weren't turned over. About 90% of the rushing yards weren't turned over. And of the 7 guys with triple digit receiving yardage, 1 is Lemon, 1 is West, the rest weren't turned over.

So yes, I assumed more would be making an impact by now. But it's clear that we're recruiting development guys at skill positions, so I realize we need to be patient. Just need to hope the next crop is more productive.

 

[tep624]

Honestly, no. I think Doug's upside is very limited. That is my point, all BS aside. His binder lacks vision to be great, IMO. Respectable, sure but I want to be better than that and I know everybody else does to. I just think that Marrone will never get us there, I just do. Take all the back and forth and put it aside, and that is the way I feel. I just don't see it. I don't think Marrone will ever be talked about as a "great" college football coach. He will be a tough guy to get rid of because of his SU ties and i think we will always be at least in the 5-8 category if you include bowl games, I just don't see a huge upside, too conservative. In the ACC, it could be worse because we will have to compete at a higher level. If we win 35-14, I will say that the staff and team did a great job on this specific week for sure, come back and play two good games. Week in week out...I expect 1-2 bad games every year, it happens but I have seen way too much bad football thus year for a coach 3 years in to his tenure.

Hey, I am hoping for a 3 game run but one at a time, #6 would be great, 7 would be as well. Don't really want to play in the Beef Bowl

Next year is a big year for the program for sure

We'll see his offense when he has a QB that has the skill set necessary to excel in his offense, and when that QB is mentally and physically read to lead that offense. For better or worse, Marrone doesn't strike me as the type to roll the dice and throw a Frosh QB to the wolves. We saw how well that worked out with Joe Fields here...maybe he knows something.

It's pretty clear that Marrone feels that Nassib, with his faults, is a better option in a Vanilla offense than any of the current younger QB's on the roster are in the full version of his offense. Whether they aren't physically or mentally ready, or they just don't appear that they'll develop into what he wants, I can't answer. What I do know about our QB situation is pretty simple - Loeb was a project and still is, Miller isn't available, Kinder or Hunt aren't ready, and Broyld isn't here. So it's Nassib with the Vanilla offense or bust.

And even if Hunt was ready as a true frosh, starting a true frosh at QB rarely ends in success. Marrone HAS to string together winning bowl seasons. Going 8-5 and then 3-9 because you wanted to start a Frosh QB that when seasoned and ready can run the full vision of your offense isn't good enough. It may be for you, but the perception outside of the SU world and on the recruiting trail is that the team has regressed if they have a losing record.

We had 4 years of using players that were not good fits for a specific offensive system under GROB, and we all saw the results of that. Do we really need to have lightning strike twice and have Marrone force a system on players that aren't capable to succeed in it? If that's the case we should have just kept GROB around for another 4 years.

I believe that at least by year 5, we'll see Marrone's full offense in gear. It may not happen next year, unless one of Hunt, Broyld, or Kinder beat out Nassib in the Spring. If that happens, then we'll see it next year. You really should just temper your expectations for a year, because you're not going to get what you want this year - no way.