Coach says recruiting

[rrlbees]

That leaves Golden, who I felt at the time was our best bet and still think he was our best bet.

At best Golden was 4th on SU's list.

 

[billsin01]

Yep. no argument there and I agree the job was not a great looking one when Marrone took it for sure and I agree with Otto the only guy we probably could have hired but didn't was Al Golden

Well, I'm not sure how valid my opinion is here since I really liked (loved?) Turner Gill, but I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle on Marrone. I'm a little shy of where IB is if he's one end of the scale but I am closer to his line of thinking. The one thing that holds me back from agreeing entirely is that I think Marrone has shown a willingness to change and if he can find himself a real, college offensive coordinator, I think there is a lot of potential here.

A couple other points:

-- Will people stop with the "34 games isn't enough to ..." stuff? There are very few offenses, for example, that are terrible or bad for the better part of three years and then suddenly explode in year 4. It's only 34 games but I've seen enough to know I really like Shafer as a DC (whether he's perfect or not, like I seem to think, is certainly debatable but I think it's hard to argue he hasn't been really, really good for the most part). Listen, you can make some conclusions after 34 games and suggesting Marrone, at minimum, has room for improvement or, in a more drastic case, has a limited ceiling is pretty fair. You may not share the opinion but it's not such a small sample size that you can't make any general conclusions.

-- I never get people who are so fearful of really successful coaches leaving. Makes no sense. Getting two or three really, really successful seasons is great. Yeah, you'd love to land a guy who's great AND in it for the long haul, but that's a rare breed. Getting to the peak is important and worrying about what happens when you get there is pointless. I mean, the Cuse is actually a great example of this. If they hire Strong, for example, and he has three great seasons (we win 6 in year 1, then 9 in year 2 and 11 in year 3 -- completely hypothetical). There's a chance he stays or, say he leaves, we all of a sudden have a program fresh off a BCS appearance, stocked with talent and on the way to the ACC (and the cash that comes with it). That makes for a pretty attractive job, no? The point is -- get there first, worry about the rest later.

-- I've said this a million times but I think recruiting is far less important than development. Therefore I'll hold my judgment on Marrone as a "recruiter" until I see a full two or three classes on campus for a couple years. My personal opinion, but I've seen ND pull 4 and 5 star kids with plenty of athleticism and fail to win consistently since the mid-90s. Talent is easier to find than it is to develop, IMO.

 

[billsin01]

We'll see his offense when he has a QB that has the skill set necessary to excel in his offense ...

I believe that at least by year 5, we'll see Marrone's full offense in gear. It may not happen next year, unless one of Hunt, Broyld, or Kinder beat out Nassib in the Spring. If that happens, then we'll see it next year. You really should just temper your expectations for a year, because you're not going to get what you want this year - no way.

This is faulty logic, IMO. Name me one example of an offensive system that took off in year 5 of a coach's tenure? And the perfect QB for a system? Have you seen Notre Dame piling up 500 yards of offense several times this year with a QB that has a pop gun arm, no legs and a penchant for red zone INTs? You can't have a system that needs ideal personnel to succeed b/c you just don't get that with all the turnover in college football.

 

[javadoc]

And the perfect QB for a system?

What offense should we be running this year, given the personnel on the team?

 

[kingottoiii]

A couple other points:

The worry with Strong would be that he came here and went 5-7, 7-6, 9-4 and then left. It would make us more attractive than when we had GRob but still wouldn't be as attractive as 90s SU. So it wouldn't be easy to get a HC. Also you don't want to have a revolving door. Eventually it will catch up to you. Cincy has been fine but the BE has a lot to do with that. I don't think that would work in the ACC.

I don't give a damn about stars ratings. We can and have in the past gotten plenty of play makers from 2 and 3 star recruits. That isn't happening under Marrone. He has done a great job getting 20 kids who can all contribute. But his top kids pale in comparison to GRob's top kids.

 

[RF2044]

The worry with Strong would be that he came here and went 5-7, 7-6, 9-4 and then left. It would make us more attractive than when we had GRob but still wouldn't be as attractive as 90s SU. So it wouldn't be easy to get a HC. Also you don't want to have a revolving door. Eventually it will catch up to you. Cincy has been fine but the BE has a lot to do with that. I don't think that would work in the ACC.

I don't give a damn about stars ratings. We can and have in the past gotten plenty of play makers from 2 and 3 star recruits. That isn't happening under Marrone. He has done a great job getting 20 kids who can all contribute. But his top kids pale in comparison to GRob's top kids.

Who were GRob's top kids?

Sales?

Collier?

Just saying...

 

[kingottoiii]

Who were GRob's top kids?

Sales?

Collier?

Just saying...

Chesntnut couldn't stay in school but he had more of an impact at WR than Marrone's guys so far. Taj Smith as a JUCO. Derrell Smith, DC3, Mike Williams, Holmes, Hogue, Merk, Sales, Collier, Bailey, and Lemon all showed flashes as freshman. These guys all gave us excitement for the future. What Marrone guys give you that? On D there have been a few. On O I can't name one. I look toward next year and am worried as hell on O.

 

[Aweart23]

Kobena, Ameen-Moore, Gulley, Broyld (if he gets here), Hunt, Lynch, D. Davis, Lyn, P. Thomas (4th in the country in int's right now, West off the top of my head

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Chesntnut couldn't stay in school but he had more of an impact at WR than Marrone's guys so far. Taj Smith as a JUCO. Derrell Smith, DC3, Mike Williams, Holmes, Hogue, Merk, Sales, Collier, Bailey, and Lemon all showed flashes as freshman. These guys all gave us excitement for the future. What Marrone guys give you that? On D there have been a few. On O I can't name one. I look toward next year and am worried as hell on O.

West and Stevens have done such a good job at the TE position that Wales hasn't had to do much. Based on the limited action that he's had, I'm not prepared to say that Wales will be a bust.

The staff is very high on Keenan Hale. He could flash as a freshman next season. They also loved the job Foster was doing on special teams, and wanted to get him on the field more before his injury.

Not saying that these guys will be world beaters ... but it's too soon to write them completely off.

 

[RF2044]

Chesntnut couldn't stay in school but he had more of an impact at WR than Marrone's guys so far. Taj Smith as a JUCO. Derrell Smith, DC3, Mike Williams, Holmes, Hogue, Merk, Sales, Collier, Bailey, and Lemon all showed flashes as freshman. These guys all gave us excitement for the future. What Marrone guys give you that? On D there have been a few. On O I can't name one. I look toward next year and am worried as hell on O.

I'll give you Taj Smith.

Just about all those other guys were the same caliber of recruits as what Marrone is getting. The only difference is that you know how some of their careers turned out already.

And for the record, Derrell Smith was a guy that the academies were looking at; very few were excited about him as a RB prospect, and he ended up shifting over to the other side of the ball before emerging as a top contributor. Hogue was a 4-star recruit, but couldn't even crack the rotation at RB before being shifted to LB...by the new regime. Merkerson got lambasted on this board for three years for sucking before he finally put it together and had a big senior year. Holmes was one of those under the radar Florida kids...like several Marrone has been getting. Sales and Collier contributions combined essentially all came down to Sales having one big game [the bowl game], and otherwise the collective sum of their contributions was basically nil. Bailey is a guy who hasn't started until senior year [devil's advocate--because I like Bailey].

:noidea:

I think it isn't hard to envision that in a year or two, several of Marrone's recruits will approximate the group you reference above. Players like Shamarko, Pugh, Anderson, P. Thomas, Bromley, West, Goggins, Lyn, Spruill, Dyshawn Davis, etc. are well on their way--and their stories are still being written.

Completely agree that Marrone needs to land a Taj Smith or 3, and it would be great if one of Kinder / Hunt / Broyld ends up being "the guy" we've been waiting for since 1999.

 

[JackBauer44]

[quoteCompletely agree that Marrone needs to land a Taj Smith or 3, and it would be great if one of Kinder / Hunt / Broyld ends up being "the guy" we've been waiting for since 1999.[/quote]

Defarrel Davis was supposed to be that guy. Just didn't pan out.

 

[billsin01]

What offense should we be running this year, given the personnel on the team?

Whatever system Marrone wants to run. Period. If it fails miserably, it's likely partly due to the system itself b/c we have personnel that was able to put up 30+ on a ranked WVU team. It certainly could be partly personnel as well. I get that we don't have great personnel but I don't get how it is so bad that we can't run the offense everyone swears we'll be running over people with in 2013.

 

[billsin01]

Chesntnut couldn't stay in school but he had more of an impact at WR than Marrone's guys so far. Taj Smith as a JUCO. Derrell Smith, DC3, Mike Williams, Holmes, Hogue, Merk, Sales, Collier, Bailey, and Lemon all showed flashes as freshman. These guys all gave us excitement for the future. What Marrone guys give you that? On D there have been a few. On O I can't name one. I look toward next year and am worried as hell on O.

King, I basically liked GRob as a recruiter -- or thought he was fine given the circumstances he helped create with all the losing. But this post is a bit misleading. Taj was great as was Mike Williams. Holmes DC3 looked real good as frosh and had real nice careers. Lemon was solid. But let's not get crazy with how good these guys looked. Chesnut ran fly patterns and got open deep for 8 catches -- 3 went for TDs. Real nice but I'm not sure I was expecting him to develop into a complete stud. Hogue averaged 3.3 ypc. Merkerson had 8 catches for 101. Sales 14 catches for 160. Collier had 1 carry that went for 60 yards -- his 11 other carries went for 22 yards. Plus that's over 5 years of GRob (4 but Lemon was his recruit).

By those standards you could point to Gulley's 13 carries for 74 yards would qualify as would Kobena's work on kick returns. West probably makes this list if not for the ankle issue. Listen, I'm not fired up about the offensive haul either, but remember a vast majority of Marrone's first class was on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Chip]

Wasn't Chestnut a Coach P DB recruit? And our #3 WR as a true freshman after being moved during the season? Can't imagine why our offense struggled that year.

 

[kingottoiii]

Just about all those other guys were the same caliber of recruits as what Marrone is getting. The only difference is that you know how some of their careers turned out already.

You are missing the point. All those guys I mentioned showed flashes as freshman. We haven't seen that with Marrone's guys. They may all develop into pretty good players. But the fact that none of them are showing anything now is a little bit of a concern. RB and WR are easy to break into. A playmaker should be able to get some time as a frosh and show you some flashes of what will come in the future. I am sure a lot of the Marrone guys will develop but we cannot assume that it will happen. We need some guys who have talent. Talent is talent. It will show as a frosh.

 

[RF2044]

You are missing the point. All those guys I mentioned showed flashes as freshman. We haven't seen that with Marrone's guys. They may all develop into pretty good players. But the fact that none of them are showing anything now is a little bit of a concern. RB and WR are easy to break into. A playmaker should be able to get some time as a frosh and show you some flashes of what will come in the future. I am sure a lot of the Marrone guys will develop but we cannot assume that it will happen. We need some guys who have talent. Talent is talent. It will show as a frosh.

Haven't seen that from Marrone's guys? Sure we have. Shamarko and Phil Thomas both played a TON as frosh and excelled. Pugh will be a 4 year starter at LT. Chibane is probably a four year starter at LG. Spruill started as a true frosh and accorded himself well. Ditto Dyshawn Davis as a true frosh--he doesn't look like a playmaker to you?

I'll leave Kratuman out, since he's a kicker. But the fact is, several of Marrone's freshman from the first two classes have shown flashes and emerged as playmakers [although admittedly none at RB / WR].

Not trying to be argumentative, KO, the facts don't support the point you were making.

 

[Cadillac]

I remember everyone HATED GRob's recruiting at the time.

A brief history of GRob recruiting (as I remember it)

• Lavar Lobdell putting on an SU cap. The closest we ever came to a "coup."
• Mike Williams
• DC3, who I remember being under the radar, then racking up the stats and awards, and everyone praying OSU stays away.
• Sheeran from Wisky, then someone else, Baumbach I think, flipping.
• Parker Cantey, David Legree... Take THAT, Rutgers, we're back in NYC.
• McKenzie Matthews decision to go to Pitt leaks.
• Jermaine Pierce... no one can find anything on the entire internet, either video or print, of this kid existing.
• Gronk having an SU cap on the table.
• I really thought Jason Kates would have got us some momentum.
• Andray Baskin deciding SU over Tennessee on Signing Day. I go over to the UT Scout site, and their fans are like... who?
• Tribbey picks us over a VT greyshirt.
• Spinney commits... then bounces when BC offers.
• Hogue commits... then PSU fans show up en masse to say, he didn't want to play LB so we pulled the offer.
• Catalina and Suter commit... then Pitt fans show up en masse to say good for you, these are the kind of guys we USED to recruit. *pats head*
• Kill'Um Gillum.
• Trey Fairchild commits, and OSU posters show up to say, well, if we didn't have 30 kids already committed in June, maybe we'd take a shot on him.
• Collier and Sales having their pick of 25 schools, then 10, then 5, then... us (not sure if 100% true, but honestly how it felt like)
• Dammit, I wasted time writing a long list and it ain't even funny.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Well, I'm not sure how valid my opinion is here since I really liked (loved?) Turner Gill, but I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle on Marrone. I'm a little shy of where IB is if he's one end of the scale but I am closer to his line of thinking. The one thing that holds me back from agreeing entirely is that I think Marrone has shown a willingness to change and if he can find himself a real, college offensive coordinator, I think there is a lot of potential here.

A couple other points:

-- Will people stop with the "34 games isn't enough to ..." stuff? There are very few offenses, for example, that are terrible or bad for the better part of three years and then suddenly explode in year 4. It's only 34 games but I've seen enough to know I really like Shafer as a DC (whether he's perfect or not, like I seem to think, is certainly debatable but I think it's hard to argue he hasn't been really, really good for the most part). Listen, you can make some conclusions after 34 games and suggesting Marrone, at minimum, has room for improvement or, in a more drastic case, has a limited ceiling is pretty fair. You may not share the opinion but it's not such a small sample size that you can't make any general conclusions.

-- I never get people who are so fearful of really successful coaches leaving. Makes no sense. Getting two or three really, really successful seasons is great. Yeah, you'd love to land a guy who's great AND in it for the long haul, but that's a rare breed. Getting to the peak is important and worrying about what happens when you get there is pointless. I mean, the Cuse is actually a great example of this. If they hire Strong, for example, and he has three great seasons (we win 6 in year 1, then 9 in year 2 and 11 in year 3 -- completely hypothetical). There's a chance he stays or, say he leaves, we all of a sudden have a program fresh off a BCS appearance, stocked with talent and on the way to the ACC (and the cash that comes with it). That makes for a pretty attractive job, no? The point is -- get there first, worry about the rest later.

-- I've said this a million times but I think recruiting is far less important than development. Therefore I'll hold my judgment on Marrone as a "recruiter" until I see a full two or three classes on campus for a couple years. My personal opinion, but I've seen ND pull 4 and 5 star kids with plenty of athleticism and fail to win consistently since the mid-90s. Talent is easier to find than it is to develop, IMO.

Bills, I think you're as good a poster as this board has.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I believe that at least by year 5, we'll see Marrone's full offense in gear.

I find this maddening.

I realize he may not have the desired personnel for his "system," but how much worse could the performance be from what we get right now?

We win in spite of the offense, not because of it.

 

[bnoro]

You are missing the point. All those guys I mentioned showed flashes as freshman. We haven't seen that with Marrone's guys. They may all develop into pretty good players. But the fact that none of them are showing anything now is a little bit of a concern. RB and WR are easy to break into. A playmaker should be able to get some time as a frosh and show you some flashes of what will come in the future. I am sure a lot of the Marrone guys will develop but we cannot assume that it will happen. We need some guys who have talent. Talent is talent. It will show as a frosh.

I think Jerome Smith has looked great in his limited time this year and want to see him get more carries. If Gulley didn't get hurt he'd be a major contributor right now. Like what I see from West a lot, think he can be very good for us next year and wrapping up this year. Also have heard great reports about Hunt. Kobena has shown flashes, and many of the defensive freshman from this year will be 4 year contributors.

But no, we have no freshmen with talent.

 

[Millhouse]

I find this maddening.

I realize he may not have the desired personnel for his "system," but how much worse could the performance be from what we get right now?

We win in spite of the offense, not because of it.

Pick a probability that a kinder run offense could be worse. As long as that probability is above zero, Marrone isn't going to take that chance because he incorrectly believes that Nassib offers a 6 win floor - and bowl eligibility is all that matters to him right now. once he has enough players to have a reasonable expectation of bowl eligibility no matter what, he'll start thinking more in terms of expected value and upside. Where you're goofed up is that you get the cause and effect of completion percentage and interceptions wrong. you think that because those 2 stats are good, he should do more. Where marrone thinks he can't do more so he pares everything down to optimize those 2 stats. there's a million things the guy can't do so we're going to focus on the 2 things he can do rollout dumpoffs and slants to at least keep the ball off the ground or out of the other team's hands.

by continuing to think that nassib is serviceable, you dismiss that the offense could be worse. they're at the 20th percentile now. you can be worse than that

you think marrone's nuts for not running his offense with nassib, i think he's nuts for not running his offense with kinder. and i'll really think he's nuts for not running it with hunt next year

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Pick a probability that a kinder run offense could be worse. As long as that probability is above zero, Marrone isn't going to take that chance because he incorrectly believes that Nassib offers a 6 win floor - and bowl eligibility is all that matters to him right now. once he has enough players to have a reasonable expectation of bowl eligibility no matter what, he'll start thinking more in terms of expected value and upside. Where you're goofed up is that you get the cause and effect of completion percentage and interceptions wrong. you think that because those 2 stats are good, he should do more. Where marrone thinks he can't do more so he pares everything down to optimize those 2 stats. there's a million things the guy can't do so we're going to focus on the 2 things he can do rollout dumpoffs and slants to at least keep the ball off the ground or out of the other team's hands.

by continuing to think that nassib is serviceable, you dismiss that the offense could be worse. they're at the 20th percentile now. you can be worse than that

you think marrone's nuts for not running his offense with nassib, i think he's nuts for not running his offense with kinder. and i'll really think he's nuts for not running it with hunt next year

Good post, I think Bills makes a great point as many are waiting for the switch to flip year 5 as if Marrone is just going to come out of nowhere and get this moving.. Like he said we are 32 games or whatever into the tenure. If Nassib is the issue then he should not start NEXT year, you will have a RS soph, and RS frosh who if they were recruited to play qb could/ should be the answer.. You have to build on something and with Nassib is a straight white knuckle approach because of his limitations. That is where I get into the lack of identity on offense, in year 5 will we try to put a new system in because of the change in QB? To me an established coach with an identity in year 5 has recruited the type of players to run his system but when the OC and HC is too multiple or lacks an identity on offense there is absolutely no way one can expect to be great.

Great offenses/ Good coaches with an identity. Leach, RRod, Johnson, etc etc. I would expect a good offensive coach to have an identity. When Deleone was good he had the freeze option

 

[rosconey]

we have a offenseive style-its called bass akwards

works best when under a bubble like the dome- why have a fast fun offense when this one will chase away fans faster than the great guru at a reading of the little train that could

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I understand that the fansbase needs wins, but this fanbase also needs a dynamic playmaker on offense, like I said when SU's qb is arguably the best athlete on the field on offense, you will see a good offense in my opinion. The game management stuff has worn people out, if you can't find that the next best thing is a qb with accuracy... 20 yard passes, too much to ask, I know

It isn't predetermined that Syracuse has to suck on offense and be very vanilla, it's just that is what we have seen for 13 years now. Go hire the best OC in the MAC, see what happens.

 

[SmilinBob]

I want an overall coach that wins games. Look at sabin, miles, paterno, or tressel they have titles not offensive explosion or an identity. Do I want the offense to score more, absolutely, but the bigger picture is to win and put your team in position to do so.