Coyle's decision

[skytop44]

I do agree with this if Shafer can get us to 5 wins this year they he will have earned another year. Any thing less then it is time to move on IMO.

I think I said this before the season started. He wins 4, with a new AD that didn't hire him he's most likely going to be gone. Wins 5, then it's a decision Coyle has to make whether to keep him or not for another year or sign him up long term. I want him to win because anytime you fire a coach it's going to have a ripple effect unless you have the right fit from day 1. This next game will be an indicator I think of what this team will look like for the last 6. A win against Pitt would be a nice way to stop this talk.

 

[OrangePA]

So you like him because he is a good guy and does well in the community not because he is a good football coach. Not once did you mention him being good at his job. You listed everything but coaching football. Great guy good in the community and can sort of recruit (while recruiting has gotten better it is still at the bottom of the ACC). When is that not enough to be a good guy? When do you hold him responsible for not being a good coach?

Actually, that's not true.

I indicated that one of things that I, and others, like about him is that he has produced some pretty good defenses on the Hill for a number of years.

I think most would agree with that.

 

[texascpa]

And I gave reasons as to why I think he should go? What is the difference? Why is one opinion valued over the other? Why is one opinion unbiased why the other one is good?

You quoting the right person, because I never said anything about value or bias. I was referring to you calling Shafer supporters blind. To be blind would mean we support regardless, without thought and reason. You gave your reasons, we give ours. Neither is blind.

 

[im4cuse]

But we are 3-0! Wait ...

You don't have to wait in college football these days: Houston, Memphis, Temple !! Any with tradition? Any 4-5 star recruits there? You can come out of nowhere, overnight. Weaker conferences perhaps (though we just got waxed by one of their lesser ones) but they play exciting football and give everyone reason to get excited.

Starts at the top. Who the HC is -- who he brings in, his vision, his scheme (even a gimmick) to make something from little. We do not have that guy. Maybe he's a D-1, P-5 assistant (but not a coordinator). He's just not, though he seems like a sincere, dedicated fellow. The pants are just too long.

I'm guessing an AD from Boise has it figured out. He's hopefully taken the measure of the situation. It's hard since we are in our 15th year of rebuilding, but it can be done.

 

[OttosDad]

Coyle needs to make his decision soon, can't wait around while all these other programs like MD and inevitably SUNJ fire their coaches. They will get a head start.

 

[dasher]

So you like him because he is a good guy and does well in the community not because he is a good football coach. Not once did you mention him being good at his job. You listed everything but coaching football. Great guy good in the community and can sort of recruit (while recruiting has gotten better it is still at the bottom of the ACC). When is that not enough to be a good guy? When do you hold him responsible for not being a good coach?

I will give it a shot. We haven't had the talent to know one way or another what type of coach SS can be. last year, we didn't have a guy drafted. Not one. Who is getting drafted this year? SS is improving the talent base. No question about that. Dungey is a terrific young qb. Best we have had as a true freshman in years and years. We just got a 5 star tight end. We have a 4 star wide out on the horizon for '17. Now, do I think he needs help with game management, yes. 1000x yes. He is learning but has a long ways to go. Most of the experts here wouldn't handle it very well the first time they "went for it" on 4th and one and were destroyed on talk radio after the fact. I'm content to give SS and this staff more time. I think what get's lost is that this is year 3 for these guys, not year 16 like it is for us. We would be a lot more patient if we hadn't suffered for 13 years before this. I think we are now on the right track. A couple or 3 more wins the rest of the season would help push that along.

 

[skurey]

Actually, that's not true.

I indicated that one of things that I, and others, like about him is that he has produced some pretty good defenses on the Hill for a number of years.

I think most would agree with that.

Yes we've had some really good defenses when he was DC. Move him back to that position as he hasn't shown to be capable overall as a HC and the defense is awful this season, freshman or not.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

If I'm Coyle, I'd say, guys, I don't want to tell you how to do your job, but you play in a Dome, and you're the only P5 staff that can claim that, so how do you feel about throwing the ball a bit more and speeding things up a bit.

If they say yes and follow through on it, bangarang, if they waffle at all I'd say, guys, I'm going to tell you how to do your job, or you'll be looking for new jobs - THROW THE BALL AND SPEED THINGS UP.

Then I'd shake their hands, give them a pat on their shoulder, smile, and ask them if they want to head over to Heid's or something.

 

[AAM62]

If I'm Coyle, I'd say, guys, I don't want to tell you how to do your job, but you play in a Dome, and you're the only P5 staff that can claim that, so how do you feel about throwing the ball a bit more and speeding things up a bit.

If they say yes and follow through on it, bangarang, if they waffle at all I'd say, guys, I'm going to tell you how to do your job, or you'll be looking for new jobs - THROW THE BALL AND SPEED THINGS UP.

Then I'd shake their hands, give them a pat on their shoulder, smile, and ask them if they want to head over to Heid's or something.

oh yes, teams will really fear the likes of an uptemo offense relying on the avants and cornelius's of the world. Ishmael isnt going to burn anyone and estime has a hard time getting open.

 

[Crusty]

Firing a head coach is a difficult decision because there is really no way of knowing whether or not another year or two will get the job done. There are many examples of highly successful head coaches that needed 4 or 5 years to get their program on track. Also, there is no way of knowing if the next guy will be any better and there is always the chance he will be worse.

While I think HCSS has all the essential attributes to be a successful head coach, I am not making the decision and I fear that the tide is running against Shafer.

What does Coyle do? His base of reference is obviously Boise State. With the exception of 2013, when Shafer took over on January 9th, a month before NSD, we have recruited about the same as Boise State. The results however, are very different.

Sc out Recruiting Class Ranks
2015 - BS 46 2.96 | SU 50 2.64 Boise is 5-2 through 7 games; SU is 3-3 through 6 games.
2014 - BS 56 2.60 | SU 53 2.72 Boise was 12-2 with a Fiesta Bowl win; SU was 3-9
2013 - BS 42 2.73 | SU 73 2.45 Boise was 8-5 with a loss to Oregon State in the Hawaii Bowl; Su was 7-6 with a win in the Texas Bowl over Minnesota.

Coyle is used to seeing 10-12 wins a year with about the same talent level as ours. This is not a good sign for Shafer. I think that there has to be some measurable improvement the rest of the season or I think Coyle will move to get his own guy. I hope I am wrong, but I think the light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming right at Shafer.

 

[Willy75]

I will give it a shot. We haven't had the talent to know one way or another what type of coach SS can be. last year, we didn't have a guy drafted. Not one. Who is getting drafted this year? SS is improving the talent base. No question about that. Dungey is a terrific young qb. Best we have had as a true freshman in years and years. We just got a 5 star tight end. We have a 4 star wide out on the horizon for '17. Now, do I think he needs help with game management, yes. 1000x yes. He is learning but has a long ways to go. Most of the experts here wouldn't handle it very well the first time they "went for it" on 4th and one and were destroyed on talk radio after the fact. I'm content to give SS and this staff more time. I think what get's lost is that this is year 3 for these guys, not year 16 like it is for us. We would be a lot more patient if we hadn't suffered for 13 years before this. I think we are now on the right track. A couple or 3 more wins the rest of the season would help push that along.

Unless we're talking about first or second round picks the point about getting drafted is not very persuasive, and we have had several guys in NFL camps and on practice squads. If Shafer wins 3 more games the critics will go away, even 2 (for now). If we drop 9 in a row, or lose 8 with some more really bad losses, or Dungey gets hurt running the ball like he did vs UVa, all bets are off re Shafer's future.
Whatever anyone feels about Shafer the game planning for teams like FSU, Clemson, UL and BC can't have Dungey running the ball this much.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

oh yes, teams will really fear the likes of an uptemo offense relying on the avants and cornelius's of the world. Ishmael isnt going to burn anyone and estime has a hard time getting open.

Are you suggesting teams fear what we're doing now?

 

[skurey]

If we fire HCSS and hire some moron what's going to happen? We will suck. Well guess what, we suck now and have for a very long time. To me there is no difference between 6-6 and 3-9 especially when those 6 wins include RI and other FCS schools.

 

[TheCusian]

Are you suggesting teams fear what we're doing now?

Yes. Dungey is that dynamic.

 

[Mr Peabody]

My guess is Coyle looks at this fairly objectively and sees this team about where he expected them to be. We won the games we were favored in and lost those we weren't. Didn't see the UVA game but I thought USF was bigger, stronger, and faster. Add our youth to the equation and we certainly hoped for more but realistically there is nothing shocking about our season.

Coaches have made the x and o mistakes you would expect from a developing staff. Do you fire them for that or evaluate their progress and potential and stick with them? Same as any business decision. If you say i could bring in X and improve this team by Y, you have a case.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yes. Dungey is that dynamic.

Dungey may be, but so far defenses can expect that they're really only in for one half of competition.

 

[TheCusian]

Dungey may be, but so far defenses can expect that they're really only in for one half of competition.

So far.

 

[Cusefan0307]

If we fire shafer, we better guarantee the next guy is better, and we better well guarantee we are willing to commit five years to him, because if I'm a recruit I'm staying away from this dog and pony show. It's going to be the fourth coaching change in 11 years. That'll guarantee you the best of the best recruits. If I'm a high school coach I'm telling my players to go to a good mid major school over a power five program with zero plan for the future.

 

[721Comstock]

If we fire shafer, we better guarantee the next guy is better, and we better well guarantee we are willing to commit five years to him, because if I'm a recruit I'm staying away from this dog and pony show. It's going to be the fourth coaching change in 11 years. That'll guarantee you the best of the best recruits. If I'm a high school coach I'm telling my players to go to a good mid major school over a power five program with zero plan for the future.

And yet - Pitt somehow is successful in spite of their New Coach Every Year thing.

I'm NOT in the Fire SMFS camp, at all, but - IF that decision were made later this year, THEN if done properly, it's not necessarily doom and gloom on the recruiting front.

I'd like for us to win another 2 or 3 games, so this isn't even a question we will have to deal with.

 

[longtimefan]

And yet - Pitt somehow is successful in spite of their New Coach Every Year thing.

I'm NOT in the Fire SMFS camp, at all, but - IF that decision were made later this year, THEN if done properly, it's not necessarily doom and gloom on the recruiting front.

I'd like for us to win another 2 or 3 games, so this isn't even a question we will have to deal with.

Pitt has not exactly set the world on fire. And, they can stock their roster pretty much with just Western Pennsylvania kids.

 

[TheCusian]

Pitt has not exactly set the world on fire. And, they can stock their roster pretty much with just Western Pennsylvania kids.

They've been underperforming their recruiting ranking for a decade.

 

[javadoc]

It's definite my favorite parlour game what to do about a floundering program but Coyle, regardless of if you think Shafer is back next year or not, has decisions to make.

The posts about not having a top 25 seasons since 2001 is something that really angers me and should anger the fanbase. Just being good enough and trying to scrape 6 win seasons is embarassing. The excuses are just that, excuses. If BC can figure out a way to get into the top 10 once in that period we should too. Our expectations should be that of BC and probably higher.

We need to figure out if Shafer is our Tom Coughlin or if our Tom Coughlin is out there. I'm not even worried about it being a stepping stone job b/c that usually means a job was done.

It all starts (or begins the end) with Pittsburgh.

Premature discussion, but I'll say it again. IMO. If we fire a coach after 3 years, I will lose a great deal of respect for the persons responsible. Don't want to be "that program."

 

[721Comstock]

They've been underperforming their recruiting ranking for a decade.

SEVEN STRAIGHT BOWL GAMES.

God forbid SU "underperform" like that.

 

[CousCuse]

My guess is Coyle looks at this fairly objectively and sees this team about where he expected them to be. We won the games we were favored in and lost those we weren't. Didn't see the UVA game but I thought USF was bigger, stronger, and faster. Add our youth to the equation and we certainly hoped for more but realistically there is nothing shocking about our season.

Coaches have made the x and o mistakes you would expect from a developing staff. Do you fire them for that or evaluate their progress and potential and stick with them? Same as any business decision. If you say i could bring in X and improve this team by Y, you have a case.

You are correct Mr. Peabody . USF has always been an SEC sized squad , that's one one of the schools that big time athletes go to when they can't get into an SEC school do to academics. Virginia's coach ,Mike London , has been recruiting highly ranked classes with many 4 star athletes and legitimate P5 lineman on both sides of the ball , he just can't game coach good enough to win . ( Unless the refs change the rules of an incomplete pass to help him get one.)

 

[Quazzum69]

We haven't had the talent to know one way or another what type of coach SS can be.

I think what get's lost is that this is year 3 for these guys, not year 16 like it is for us.

He's been the head coach for 2.5 seasons and an assistant (the DC!) for four so that's almost 7 seasons in a prominent position with this program. How long does the guy get when there are other coaches at schools with half the resources getting results in half that time? People act like he just walked into Gross' office and got handed a job as a head coach with no experience (you's thing that from his press conferences).

Recruiting is part of the job description and he has clearly failed as we are near the bottom of the ACC. Is he not at least partly responsible for the roster from his time as defensive coordinator? There is no excuse for youth or a crappy roster as he has been here as a coordinator or greater for six full seasons.

Pull the plug, Coyle.