Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[javadoc]

I'm seeing a lot of this. The Atrium in Chestnut Hill did something similar after years of struggling to compete against the Bloomingdale's shopping center across the street. Smaller neighborhood shopping plazas around Upstate have gone this route after losing an anchor tenant. And of course The Galleries in Syracuse shifted its tenant mix from mostly retail to mostly office over the last couple decades.

My favorite has been the mall in Newport News that still had a functioning Sears back in 2014, but a large part of the rest of the mall had been converted to offsite IT space for the Navy shipyard. Strangest workplace environment I have seen.

 

[shandeezy7]

Read all the posts guy I’m not going to rehash every post for you

Half of your posts don't make any sense, so it's hard to follow. Are you saying that the vast majority of SU, hospital, etc. employees come from the suburbs? More people live in the suburbs, collectively, than the city, so I guess that's math. I suppose you could tell your suburban friends that they wouldn't have jobs if the city didn't exist.

 

[OttoMets]

The vast majority of who? His neighbors?

 

[rrlbees]

Before spending money on this project how about fixing the roads in the city that have a million potholes. Unless fixing all of that is part of the plan for the grid or whatever wins out. We have the worse roads of anyplace I’ve ever been.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Before spending money on this project how about fixing the roads in the city that have a million potholes. Unless fixing all of that is part of the plan for the grid or whatever wins out. We have the worse roads of anyplace I’ve ever been.

That's part of the plan.

 

[shandeezy7]

Before spending money on this project how about fixing the roads in the city that have a million potholes. Unless fixing all of that is part of the plan for the grid or whatever wins out. We have the worse roads of anyplace I’ve ever been.

Fixing roads is a major part of the grid plan and I take it that you have never been to Buffalo.

 

[gmoney44]

Half of your posts don't make any sense, so it's hard to follow. Are you saying that the vast majority of SU, hospital, etc. employees come from the suburbs? More people live in the suburbs, collectively, than the city, so I guess that's math. I suppose you could tell your suburban friends that they wouldn't have jobs if the city didn't exist.

Now I remember why I stayed away from these off topics. Guys like you just sitting around arguing over everything.
For the record I could care less what they do with 81. I avoid the city like the plague because I think it’s a dump just like most people that visit the city with no connection to it. Go read opposing teams forums after they travel here for a game or the NCAA tournament. They all think it sucks too. The only thing nice they ever say is about the surrounding areas.
I’m done with you and this thread.

 

[shandeezy7]

Now I remember why I stayed away from these off topics. Guys like you just sitting around arguing over everything.
For the record I could care less what they do with 81. I avoid the city like the plague because I think it’s a dump just like most people that visit the city with no connection to it. Go read opposing teams forums after they travel here for a game or the NCAA tournament. They all think it sucks too. The only thing nice they ever say is about the surrounding areas.
I’m done with you and this thread.

You're the one that came in here and started stirring the pot. Sorry that you can't handle pushback when you spew nonsense. Thank you though for your final post here, which confirms exactly why I have zero respect for your opinion on this matter, and why, for the most part, I don't really care what suburbanites think about 81.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The "city is a dump". Well why do developers/businesses keep improving it then?

 

[FrancoPizza]

Fixing roads is a major part of the grid plan and I take it that you have never been to Buffalo.

The grid plan sounds better than it did when it was first proposed IF the entire city network was rehabilitated. BUT the nature of that project is more susceptible to cutting corners. There are no built-in guarantees to fix all the roads that we saw in those renderings. The only guarantee is the viaduct comes down and the boulevard underneath it would be repaved with a median. I can easily see the state rationalizing they don't have the money to finish the rest of what they promised because the other roads would still be "functional" and therefore not a priority. Hate to be cynical but we've been burned too many times by failed developments.

On the flip side, if they had to rebuild the viaduct or bore a tunnel, they would have less wiggle room to abandon promises. You can't leave a bridge or a tunnel half-completed.

 

[xc84]

The grid plan sounds better than it did when it was first proposed IF the entire city network was rehabilitated. BUT the nature of that project is more susceptible to cutting corners. There are no built-in guarantees to fix all the roads that we saw in those renderings. The only guarantee is the viaduct comes down and the boulevard underneath it would be repaved with a median. I can easily see the state rationalizing they don't have the money to finish the rest of what they promised because the other roads would still be "functional" and therefore not a priority. Hate to be cynical but we've been burned too many times by failed developments.

On the flip side, if they had to rebuild the viaduct or bore a tunnel, they would have less wiggle room to abandon promises. You can't leave a bridge or a tunnel half-completed.

All of the options come with major costly improvements in downtown. It is not limited to the grid option.

 

[shandeezy7]

The grid plan sounds better than it did when it was first proposed IF the entire city network was rehabilitated. BUT the nature of that project is more susceptible to cutting corners. There are no built-in guarantees to fix all the roads that we saw in those renderings. The only guarantee is the viaduct comes down and the boulevard underneath it would be repaved with a median. I can easily see the state rationalizing they don't have the money to finish the rest of what they promised because the other roads would still be "functional" and therefore not a priority. Hate to be cynical but we've been burned too many times by failed developments.

On the flip side, if they had to rebuild the viaduct or bore a tunnel, they would have less wiggle room to abandon promises. You can't leave a bridge or a tunnel half-completed.

Isn't it mostly federal money, not state? You're not wrong in that government delivering totally on what is promised can be hit or miss, but the more likely scenario playing out with a tunnel or rebuild (especially with a tunnel) is massive cost overruns and unsustainable maintenance costs.

 

[rrlbees]

That's part of the plan.

I would hope so but is the plan for just the streets in the immediate area or all of Syracuse?

 

[rrlbees]

Fixing roads is a major part of the grid plan and I take it that you have never been to Buffalo.

I’ve been to buffalo but not enough to have an opinion on their roads.

 

[Cheriehoop]

The quotes you are using come from 1958. The arguing, like now went on for years. The final decision wasn’t made until November of 1961 and the election of William Walsh, a huge proponent of urban renewal used to revitalize downtown merging the
2 project objectives.

‘The irony of ironies is that former Syracuse Mayor William Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal and his son, Rep. James Walsh, R- Onondaga, is working to reverse some of the problems that urban renewal either caused or did not address.

The elder Walsh told the Post-Standard that he was in favor of the renewal because he wanted to revitalize the downtown area in an attempt to encourage residents, some of whom had flocked to the suburbs, to remain in the city. The flight still occurred, and city officials are still trying to get people to return to downtown and the city. ‘

Above italicized quote was from Post Standard ‘s own editorial in 2003 called 40 years later (1963 to 2003).

I was just a young kid but I remember the conversations of families we knew who were affected back then and their emotion regarding their houses being torn down , the effect of the incessant construction noise and dirt etc from having their streets impacted from Rte 81 being built , arguments over the loss of neighbors, turning their prior multiple block long streets turned into dead ends etc. in their conversations, they blamed the city, city developers and the mayor for their plight.

I think there is some revisionist history as stated going on because of the irony regarding the Walsh’s and the understandable avoidance of publicly tarnishing his long positive legacy years after his death.

My point was that this Rte 81 situation wasn’t initiated by the suburbs , in fact much of the original Rte 81 decision was made by the city to try to stem the flight to the suburbs where major employers like GE, Carrier, Pass and Seymour, Solvay Process, GM etc were already located. Shoppingtown was built in 1954, Fairmont Fair in 1959, Bayberry in 1957. The suburbs were expanding well before Rte 81 and many not even targeted for highway access were growing the quickest. (Fayetteville, Manlius, Westvale, Camillus etc). I love the city, born, raised and owned my first home within the city but the fact is that unless you are a government employee, hospital employee, university employee or service employee related to those employers most of the largest city’s employers are within a quarter to a half mile within the city. The only available land and parking for large employers was in the suburbs even back in the 50’s. The people were following the employers to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers followed the people. The city has become the crucial ‘service capital’ for all of Onondaga County for government, hospital and college services. As others have stated, the city needs the suburbs and the suburbs need the city so it would be nice to stop the divisiveness that seems to overwhelm every issue in today’s world and respect and evaluate everyone’s needs into play.

 

[OttoMets]

The quotes you are using come from 1958. The arguing, like now went on for years. The final decision wasn’t made until November of 1961 and the election of William Walsh, a huge proponent of urban renewal used to revitalize downtown merging the
2 project objectives.

‘The irony of ironies is that former Syracuse Mayor William Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal and his son, Rep. James Walsh, R- Onondaga, is working to reverse some of the problems that urban renewal either caused or did not address.

The elder Walsh told the Post-Standard that he was in favor of the renewal because he wanted to revitalize the downtown area in an attempt to encourage residents, some of whom had flocked to the suburbs, to remain in the city. The flight still occurred, and city officials are still trying to get people to return to downtown and the city. ‘

Above italicized quote was from Post Standard ‘s own editorial in 2003 called 40 years later (1963 to 2003).

I was just a young kid but I remember the conversations of families we knew who were affected back then and their emotion regarding their houses being torn down , the effect of the incessant construction noise and dirt etc from having their streets impacted from Rte 81 being built , arguments over the loss of neighbors, turning their prior multiple block long streets turned into dead ends etc. in their conversations, they blamed the city, city developers and the mayor for their plight.

I think there is some revisionist history as stated going on because of the irony regarding the Walsh’s and the understandable avoidance of publicly tarnishing his long positive legacy years after his death.

My point was that this Rte 81 situation wasn’t initiated by the suburbs , in fact much of the original Rte 81 decision was made by the city to try to stem the flight to the suburbs where major employers like GE, Carrier, Pass and Seymour, Solvay Process, GM etc were already located. Shoppingtown was built in 1954, Fairmont Fair in 1959, Bayberry in 1957. The suburbs were expanding well before Rte 81 and many not even targeted for highway access were growing the quickest. (Fayetteville, Manlius, Westvale, Camillus etc). I love the city, born, raised and owned my first home within the city but the fact is that unless you are a government employee, hospital employee, university employee or service employee related to those employers most of the largest city’s employers are within a quarter to a half mile within the city. The only available land and parking for large employers was in the suburbs even back in the 50’s. The people were following the employers to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers followed the people. The city has become the crucial ‘service capital’ for all of Onondaga County for government, hospital and college services. As others have stated, the city needs the suburbs and the suburbs need the city so it would be nice to stop the divisiveness that seems to overwhelm every issue in today’s world and respect and evaluate everyone’s needs into play.

That's actually a really good synopsis of the practical situation in the '50s as I understand it, but I don't agree with the conclusion. Yeah, Walsh was on the record as supporting urban renewal. Yes, those projects dovetailed with viaduct construction. But the highway planning process was fully top-down in those days and City Hall didn't have a seat at the table (neither did any suburban towns).

 

[shandeezy7]

The quotes you are using come from 1958. The arguing, like now went on for years. The final decision wasn’t made until November of 1961 and the election of William Walsh, a huge proponent of urban renewal used to revitalize downtown merging the
2 project objectives.

‘The irony of ironies is that former Syracuse Mayor William Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal and his son, Rep. James Walsh, R- Onondaga, is working to reverse some of the problems that urban renewal either caused or did not address.

The elder Walsh told the Post-Standard that he was in favor of the renewal because he wanted to revitalize the downtown area in an attempt to encourage residents, some of whom had flocked to the suburbs, to remain in the city. The flight still occurred, and city officials are still trying to get people to return to downtown and the city. ‘

Above italicized quote was from Post Standard ‘s own editorial in 2003 called 40 years later (1963 to 2003).

I was just a young kid but I remember the conversations of families we knew who were affected back then and their emotion regarding their houses being torn down , the effect of the incessant construction noise and dirt etc from having their streets impacted from Rte 81 being built , arguments over the loss of neighbors, turning their prior multiple block long streets turned into dead ends etc. in their conversations, they blamed the city, city developers and the mayor for their plight.

I think there is some revisionist history as stated going on because of the irony regarding the Walsh’s and the understandable avoidance of publicly tarnishing his long positive legacy years after his death.

My point was that this Rte 81 situation wasn’t initiated by the suburbs , in fact much of the original Rte 81 decision was made by the city to try to stem the flight to the suburbs where major employers like GE, Carrier, Pass and Seymour, Solvay Process, GM etc were already located. Shoppingtown was built in 1954, Fairmont Fair in 1959, Bayberry in 1957. The suburbs were expanding well before Rte 81 and many not even targeted for highway access were growing the quickest. (Fayetteville, Manlius, Westvale, Camillus etc). I love the city, born, raised and owned my first home within the city but the fact is that unless you are a government employee, hospital employee, university employee or service employee related to those employers most of the largest city’s employers are within a quarter to a half mile within the city. The only available land and parking for large employers was in the suburbs even back in the 50’s. The people were following the employers to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers followed the people. The city has become the crucial ‘service capital’ for all of Onondaga County for government, hospital and college services. As others have stated, the city needs the suburbs and the suburbs need the city so it would be nice to stop the divisiveness that seems to overwhelm every issue in today’s world and respect and evaluate everyone’s needs into play.

The decision to ram the freeway through the middle of Syracuse was one that was essentially forced on the city. Maybe Mayor Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal effects it promised to have, but he didn't really have much say in the matter, aside from maybe having some sway as to which houses and buildings got to be knocked down.

 

[reedny]

Syracuse Mayor Anthony Henninger called the editorials "very good and very timely."

He echoed the paper's thoughts, believing elevated highways had "ruined other cities," and would "imprison" the downtown district and prevent any new growth.

Henninger said he was certain that he would be able to stop any thinking about an elevated highway, and said he and local officials "were on top of this and we will keep after it."

Throwback Thursday: Editorials, Syracuse mayor condemn elevated I-81 in 1958

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown - there was a beltway (inner loop) but they've filled most of it in. Like Syracuse, the City has been successful revitalizing its entertainment districts and attracting new residents. Empty-nesters and Millenialls have helped tremendously. I have to say that the Syracuse center-city might be more vibrant. It looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. The trick will be convincing those young people to stay and raise families.

Competition is keen. There are job opportunities and better weather elsewhere. One of the biggest obstacles, at least in Rochester, is poverty and its impact on the overall community. Here, 50% of the residents (mostly on the West side) fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. Addiction. Rampant school truancy. Low graduation rates. And the diversion of lots of tax dollars for costly social services and law enforcement. Add these fiscal and social ills to typical urban annoyances - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. Despite decades of investment in education and neighborhood revitalization, many legacy problems persist - especially failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

In some respects, Rochester has been its own worst enemy - scoring about a D in closing the suburban-urban economic divide. It has made some progress with schools and constructed attractive signage and landscaping to mark City neighborhoods. But residents and visitors want to feel safe, and the City uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw millennials and suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering better options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids to extort revenue. Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and public market, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, walk around, enjoy themselves and buy things.

The point is ... there are a lot of factors at work, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.

 

[SU68]

Interesting recollection, but not how it went down, at least according to this:

How I-81 came to be and why New York owes Syracuse for a 60-year-old mistake (David M. Rubin)

Interesting linked article. I wondered who the idiot governor was that forced the viaduct on the city. It was a Democrat, Averell Harriman. This surprised me since I always thought of him as more of a foreign policy expert.

 

[bevosu]

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown. But there are other parallels. Both cities have had success revitalizing down town. Returning Millenialls have helped tremendously - in fact, Syracuse downtown is alive and looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. It's convincing young people to stay in the City and raise families there that has been the challenge.

They leave for many reasons: job opportunities, weather and so forth. But one of the biggest factors, at least in Rochester, is poverty and it's associated impacts. Here, 50% of the residents fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. High rates of addiction. High public school truancy. Low graduation rates, etc. Add those issues to the typical urban detractors - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. To alleviate this 'tale of two cities' syndrome, Rochester has been pouring money into education and neighborhood revitalization for decades. But many problems persist - especially failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

Rochester scores about a D- trying to address the suburban - urban economic divide. It uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering ground-level neighborhood parking options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids who slap tickets on cars (some of which are owned by visitors). Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're visiting from the suburbs and are unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and cultural district, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, enjoy themselves and buy things.

So ... there are a lot of factors at play, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.

I always found the Genesee River a problem when trying to get from one part of the city to another. Residents are probably used to it, but as a frequent visitor on business (pre-GPS), I found it confusing.

 

[OttoMets]

Interesting linked article. I wondered who the idiot governor was that forced the viaduct on the city. It was a Democrat, Averell Harriman. This surprised me since I always thought of him as more of a foreign policy expert.

He knew a lot about Formosa.

 

[reedny]

I always found the Genesee River a problem when trying to get from one part of the city to another. Residents are probably used to it, but as a frequent visitor on business (pre-GPS), I found it confusing.

The river is actually scenic - more of a draw than a barrier. You probably ran into the inner loop a little west of the river - an inner-city beltway built decades ago that became unpopular and is now being removed. Remaining are difficult one-way streets and traffic massing, along with cultural, political and social differences between the East and West sides.

 

[shandeezy7]

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown. But there are other challenges here and in Syracuse. It seems like, recently, both cities have been successful at revitalizing their entertainment districts and attracting new residents. Millenialls have helped tremendously - in fact, Syracuse center-city is alive and looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. The trick will be convincing those young people to stay and raise families.

Competition is keen. There are job opportunities and better weather elsewhere. One of the biggest obstacles, at least in Rochester, is poverty and its impact on the overall community. Here, 50% of the residents fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. Addiction. Rampant school truancy. Low graduation rates. And the diversion of lots of tax dollars and law enforcement attention. Add these social and educational ills to typical urban annoyances - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. Rochester has struggled to alleviate these issues, despite pouring money into education and neighborhood revitalization for decades. Many of the legacy problems persist - including failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

In many ways, Rochester has been its own worst enemy - and scores about a D attempting to close the suburban-urban economic divide. It has constructed attractive signage and landscaping to mark City neighborhoods. But residents and visitors want to feel safe, and the City uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw millennials and suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering better options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids to extort revenue. Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and public market, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, enjoy themselves and buy things.

The point is ... there are a lot of factors at work, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.

You bring up some interesting points, but I think that the parking issue is completely overblown. People will park at the auxiliary lot half way to the inner harbor and walk to the mall, yet they feel inconvenienced if they have to park three-plus blocks away from their desired destination downtown. It's incredible.

I have never, in my life, had to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from my desired destination in downtown Syracuse, and that includes during festivals like Taste of Syracuse. Sometimes that involves shelling out $5 to park in a lot or garage, but most of the time, it's on-street parking that's free after 5 p.m.

The same debate is happening in Buffalo, and I've had the same experience there. Never do I have to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from where I'm trying to get to.

 

[reedny]

You bring up some interesting points, but I think that the parking issue is completely overblown. People will park at the auxiliary lot half way to the inner harbor and walk to the mall, yet they feel inconvenienced if they have to park three-plus blocks away from their desired destination downtown. It's incredible.

I have never, in my life, had to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from my desired destination in downtown Syracuse, and that includes during festivals like Taste of Syracuse. Sometimes that involves shelling out $5 to park in a lot or garage, but most of the time, it's on-street parking that's free after 5 p.m.

The same debate is happening in Buffalo, and I've had the same experience there. Never do I have to park more than 4 or 5 blocks from where I'm trying to get to.

I hear you, and I've learned a lot from your posts (and OttoMet's) about the Syracuse area. Interesting link about Buffalo. I'll follow up - big resurgence there also.

My parking comments were in reference to Rochester ... problems here are acute in the 'hot' areas like Park Avenue and the Cultural District. This is no accident, of course. Parking problems produce revenue - the City created the cultural district and other high density residential ares through its own zoning regulations, and benefits handsomely from the added tax revenue generated by multi-family housing - while simultaneously feasting on the parking shortages and enforcement fines. Like Syracuse, there are spots a ways away, but I would suggest that 4-5 blocks is far enough to create concerns for women walking by themselves at night. Either way, the City could do a lot more to alleviate a problem that they created and profit from.

 

[shandeezy7]

I hear you, and I've enjoyed and learned a lot from your posts (and OttoMet's) about the Syracuse area. Interesting link about Buffalo. I'll follow up - big resurgence there also.

My parking comments were in reference to Rochester ... problems here are acute in the 'hot' areas like Park Avenue and the Cultural District. This is no accident, of course. Parking problems produce revenue - the City created the cultural district and other high density residential ares through its own zoning regulations, and benefits handsomely from the added tax revenue produced by multi-family housing - while simultaneously feasting on the parking shortages and enforcement fines. Like Syracuse, there are spots a ways away, but I would suggest that 4-5 blocks is far enough to create concerns for women walking by themselves at night. Either way, the City could do a lot more to alleviate a problem that they clearly derive financial benefit from perpetuating.

It's going to be very interesting to see Gen-Z and their relationship with cars. My brother-in-law is 16 and at this point, neither he nor any of his friends have any real interest in driving or getting their license. The evolution of ride sharing (and even car sharing services like zipcar) and more emphasis on roads sharing space with bicycles could eventually start to put a dent in parking shortage issues, especially in high-density residential areas that have walkable shops, restaurants, bars and most importantly, grocery stores (although with grocery delivery services evolving, that could change that need as well).