Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[OttoMets]

You forget who made that initial decision - the city did. Rte 81 was completed to the city limits by 1957, it was also completed north from Watertown to Brewerton. The city held out to complete it by the early ‘60’s so they could tear down the parts of the city that they thought brought the most benefit to it’s development. The county didn’t even have a county executive back then, it was a board made up of individual supervisors representing their individual town. The city, just like now wanted the final say in determining route 81 - the suburbs didn’t destroy the city - the city itself did by trying to use an interstate transportation route for gentrification, development , business concern reasons - which sounds much like the same reasons and quest for the city alone to be the only factor for rerouting and deciding the future of Rte 81 again.

NYSDOT and the FHWA alone made the routing decisions for the interstate. The city and some local business interests were successful in getting a section of the viaduct moved three blocks east, but that's the extent of their contribution. It wasn't until a decade later than community groups and municipalities got a voice after a lot of litigation and changes to both state and federal policies on notice and comment and environmental review.

 

[shandeezy7]

NYSDOT and the FHWA alone made the routing decisions for the interstate. The city and some local business interests were successful in getting a section of the viaduct moved three blocks east, but that's the extent of their contribution. It wasn't until a decade later than community groups and municipalities got a voice after a lot of litigation and changes to both state and federal policies on notice and comment and environmental review.

Exactly. City leaders were absolutely against an interstate cutting through the heart of the city. It's revisionist history and disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

[shandeezy7]

Syracuse Mayor Anthony Henninger called the editorials "very good and very timely."

He echoed the paper's thoughts, believing elevated highways had "ruined other cities," and would "imprison" the downtown district and prevent any new growth.

Henninger said he was certain that he would be able to stop any thinking about an elevated highway, and said he and local officials "were on top of this and we will keep after it."

Throwback Thursday: Editorials, Syracuse mayor condemn elevated I-81 in 1958

 

[upperdeck]

wait.. you compare time of 8 min with something that doesnt exist and think it takes longer.. we know how long it takes to take the 481 loop.. no one has any idea how long it will take to go thru the center once it changes.. i know down here it can take 2 min or 15 min to go the same section of road with 5-6 lights.

if you have 1-2 miles of blvd with lights thats going to be 10-15 lights and the 481 might well be quicker when its all done.

 

[gmoney44]

I shall tell all my professional city-dwelling neighbors (many of whom are SU, Upstate, and ESF faculty) about this interesting part of their backstory.

Go ahead and tell your dozens of professional city-dwelling neighbors it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of them come in from outside the city.

 

[shandeezy7]

Go ahead and tell your dozens of professional city-dwelling neighbors it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of them come in from outside the city.

The vast majority of who? His neighbors?

 

[gmoney44]

The vast majority of who? His neighbors?

Read all the posts guy I’m not going to rehash every post for you

 

[javadoc]

I'm seeing a lot of this. The Atrium in Chestnut Hill did something similar after years of struggling to compete against the Bloomingdale's shopping center across the street. Smaller neighborhood shopping plazas around Upstate have gone this route after losing an anchor tenant. And of course The Galleries in Syracuse shifted its tenant mix from mostly retail to mostly office over the last couple decades.

My favorite has been the mall in Newport News that still had a functioning Sears back in 2014, but a large part of the rest of the mall had been converted to offsite IT space for the Navy shipyard. Strangest workplace environment I have seen.

 

[shandeezy7]

Read all the posts guy I’m not going to rehash every post for you

Half of your posts don't make any sense, so it's hard to follow. Are you saying that the vast majority of SU, hospital, etc. employees come from the suburbs? More people live in the suburbs, collectively, than the city, so I guess that's math. I suppose you could tell your suburban friends that they wouldn't have jobs if the city didn't exist.

 

[OttoMets]

The vast majority of who? His neighbors?

 

[rrlbees]

Before spending money on this project how about fixing the roads in the city that have a million potholes. Unless fixing all of that is part of the plan for the grid or whatever wins out. We have the worse roads of anyplace I’ve ever been.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Before spending money on this project how about fixing the roads in the city that have a million potholes. Unless fixing all of that is part of the plan for the grid or whatever wins out. We have the worse roads of anyplace I’ve ever been.

That's part of the plan.

 

[shandeezy7]

Before spending money on this project how about fixing the roads in the city that have a million potholes. Unless fixing all of that is part of the plan for the grid or whatever wins out. We have the worse roads of anyplace I’ve ever been.

Fixing roads is a major part of the grid plan and I take it that you have never been to Buffalo.

 

[gmoney44]

Half of your posts don't make any sense, so it's hard to follow. Are you saying that the vast majority of SU, hospital, etc. employees come from the suburbs? More people live in the suburbs, collectively, than the city, so I guess that's math. I suppose you could tell your suburban friends that they wouldn't have jobs if the city didn't exist.

Now I remember why I stayed away from these off topics. Guys like you just sitting around arguing over everything.
For the record I could care less what they do with 81. I avoid the city like the plague because I think it’s a dump just like most people that visit the city with no connection to it. Go read opposing teams forums after they travel here for a game or the NCAA tournament. They all think it sucks too. The only thing nice they ever say is about the surrounding areas.
I’m done with you and this thread.

 

[shandeezy7]

Now I remember why I stayed away from these off topics. Guys like you just sitting around arguing over everything.
For the record I could care less what they do with 81. I avoid the city like the plague because I think it’s a dump just like most people that visit the city with no connection to it. Go read opposing teams forums after they travel here for a game or the NCAA tournament. They all think it sucks too. The only thing nice they ever say is about the surrounding areas.
I’m done with you and this thread.

You're the one that came in here and started stirring the pot. Sorry that you can't handle pushback when you spew nonsense. Thank you though for your final post here, which confirms exactly why I have zero respect for your opinion on this matter, and why, for the most part, I don't really care what suburbanites think about 81.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The "city is a dump". Well why do developers/businesses keep improving it then?

 

[FrancoPizza]

Fixing roads is a major part of the grid plan and I take it that you have never been to Buffalo.

The grid plan sounds better than it did when it was first proposed IF the entire city network was rehabilitated. BUT the nature of that project is more susceptible to cutting corners. There are no built-in guarantees to fix all the roads that we saw in those renderings. The only guarantee is the viaduct comes down and the boulevard underneath it would be repaved with a median. I can easily see the state rationalizing they don't have the money to finish the rest of what they promised because the other roads would still be "functional" and therefore not a priority. Hate to be cynical but we've been burned too many times by failed developments.

On the flip side, if they had to rebuild the viaduct or bore a tunnel, they would have less wiggle room to abandon promises. You can't leave a bridge or a tunnel half-completed.

 

[xc84]

The grid plan sounds better than it did when it was first proposed IF the entire city network was rehabilitated. BUT the nature of that project is more susceptible to cutting corners. There are no built-in guarantees to fix all the roads that we saw in those renderings. The only guarantee is the viaduct comes down and the boulevard underneath it would be repaved with a median. I can easily see the state rationalizing they don't have the money to finish the rest of what they promised because the other roads would still be "functional" and therefore not a priority. Hate to be cynical but we've been burned too many times by failed developments.

On the flip side, if they had to rebuild the viaduct or bore a tunnel, they would have less wiggle room to abandon promises. You can't leave a bridge or a tunnel half-completed.

All of the options come with major costly improvements in downtown. It is not limited to the grid option.

 

[shandeezy7]

The grid plan sounds better than it did when it was first proposed IF the entire city network was rehabilitated. BUT the nature of that project is more susceptible to cutting corners. There are no built-in guarantees to fix all the roads that we saw in those renderings. The only guarantee is the viaduct comes down and the boulevard underneath it would be repaved with a median. I can easily see the state rationalizing they don't have the money to finish the rest of what they promised because the other roads would still be "functional" and therefore not a priority. Hate to be cynical but we've been burned too many times by failed developments.

On the flip side, if they had to rebuild the viaduct or bore a tunnel, they would have less wiggle room to abandon promises. You can't leave a bridge or a tunnel half-completed.

Isn't it mostly federal money, not state? You're not wrong in that government delivering totally on what is promised can be hit or miss, but the more likely scenario playing out with a tunnel or rebuild (especially with a tunnel) is massive cost overruns and unsustainable maintenance costs.

 

[rrlbees]

That's part of the plan.

I would hope so but is the plan for just the streets in the immediate area or all of Syracuse?

 

[rrlbees]

Fixing roads is a major part of the grid plan and I take it that you have never been to Buffalo.

I’ve been to buffalo but not enough to have an opinion on their roads.

 

[Cheriehoop]

The quotes you are using come from 1958. The arguing, like now went on for years. The final decision wasn’t made until November of 1961 and the election of William Walsh, a huge proponent of urban renewal used to revitalize downtown merging the
2 project objectives.

‘The irony of ironies is that former Syracuse Mayor William Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal and his son, Rep. James Walsh, R- Onondaga, is working to reverse some of the problems that urban renewal either caused or did not address.

The elder Walsh told the Post-Standard that he was in favor of the renewal because he wanted to revitalize the downtown area in an attempt to encourage residents, some of whom had flocked to the suburbs, to remain in the city. The flight still occurred, and city officials are still trying to get people to return to downtown and the city. ‘

Above italicized quote was from Post Standard ‘s own editorial in 2003 called 40 years later (1963 to 2003).

I was just a young kid but I remember the conversations of families we knew who were affected back then and their emotion regarding their houses being torn down , the effect of the incessant construction noise and dirt etc from having their streets impacted from Rte 81 being built , arguments over the loss of neighbors, turning their prior multiple block long streets turned into dead ends etc. in their conversations, they blamed the city, city developers and the mayor for their plight.

I think there is some revisionist history as stated going on because of the irony regarding the Walsh’s and the understandable avoidance of publicly tarnishing his long positive legacy years after his death.

My point was that this Rte 81 situation wasn’t initiated by the suburbs , in fact much of the original Rte 81 decision was made by the city to try to stem the flight to the suburbs where major employers like GE, Carrier, Pass and Seymour, Solvay Process, GM etc were already located. Shoppingtown was built in 1954, Fairmont Fair in 1959, Bayberry in 1957. The suburbs were expanding well before Rte 81 and many not even targeted for highway access were growing the quickest. (Fayetteville, Manlius, Westvale, Camillus etc). I love the city, born, raised and owned my first home within the city but the fact is that unless you are a government employee, hospital employee, university employee or service employee related to those employers most of the largest city’s employers are within a quarter to a half mile within the city. The only available land and parking for large employers was in the suburbs even back in the 50’s. The people were following the employers to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers followed the people. The city has become the crucial ‘service capital’ for all of Onondaga County for government, hospital and college services. As others have stated, the city needs the suburbs and the suburbs need the city so it would be nice to stop the divisiveness that seems to overwhelm every issue in today’s world and respect and evaluate everyone’s needs into play.

 

[OttoMets]

The quotes you are using come from 1958. The arguing, like now went on for years. The final decision wasn’t made until November of 1961 and the election of William Walsh, a huge proponent of urban renewal used to revitalize downtown merging the
2 project objectives.

‘The irony of ironies is that former Syracuse Mayor William Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal and his son, Rep. James Walsh, R- Onondaga, is working to reverse some of the problems that urban renewal either caused or did not address.

The elder Walsh told the Post-Standard that he was in favor of the renewal because he wanted to revitalize the downtown area in an attempt to encourage residents, some of whom had flocked to the suburbs, to remain in the city. The flight still occurred, and city officials are still trying to get people to return to downtown and the city. ‘

Above italicized quote was from Post Standard ‘s own editorial in 2003 called 40 years later (1963 to 2003).

I was just a young kid but I remember the conversations of families we knew who were affected back then and their emotion regarding their houses being torn down , the effect of the incessant construction noise and dirt etc from having their streets impacted from Rte 81 being built , arguments over the loss of neighbors, turning their prior multiple block long streets turned into dead ends etc. in their conversations, they blamed the city, city developers and the mayor for their plight.

I think there is some revisionist history as stated going on because of the irony regarding the Walsh’s and the understandable avoidance of publicly tarnishing his long positive legacy years after his death.

My point was that this Rte 81 situation wasn’t initiated by the suburbs , in fact much of the original Rte 81 decision was made by the city to try to stem the flight to the suburbs where major employers like GE, Carrier, Pass and Seymour, Solvay Process, GM etc were already located. Shoppingtown was built in 1954, Fairmont Fair in 1959, Bayberry in 1957. The suburbs were expanding well before Rte 81 and many not even targeted for highway access were growing the quickest. (Fayetteville, Manlius, Westvale, Camillus etc). I love the city, born, raised and owned my first home within the city but the fact is that unless you are a government employee, hospital employee, university employee or service employee related to those employers most of the largest city’s employers are within a quarter to a half mile within the city. The only available land and parking for large employers was in the suburbs even back in the 50’s. The people were following the employers to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers followed the people. The city has become the crucial ‘service capital’ for all of Onondaga County for government, hospital and college services. As others have stated, the city needs the suburbs and the suburbs need the city so it would be nice to stop the divisiveness that seems to overwhelm every issue in today’s world and respect and evaluate everyone’s needs into play.

That's actually a really good synopsis of the practical situation in the '50s as I understand it, but I don't agree with the conclusion. Yeah, Walsh was on the record as supporting urban renewal. Yes, those projects dovetailed with viaduct construction. But the highway planning process was fully top-down in those days and City Hall didn't have a seat at the table (neither did any suburban towns).

 

[shandeezy7]

The quotes you are using come from 1958. The arguing, like now went on for years. The final decision wasn’t made until November of 1961 and the election of William Walsh, a huge proponent of urban renewal used to revitalize downtown merging the
2 project objectives.

‘The irony of ironies is that former Syracuse Mayor William Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal and his son, Rep. James Walsh, R- Onondaga, is working to reverse some of the problems that urban renewal either caused or did not address.

The elder Walsh told the Post-Standard that he was in favor of the renewal because he wanted to revitalize the downtown area in an attempt to encourage residents, some of whom had flocked to the suburbs, to remain in the city. The flight still occurred, and city officials are still trying to get people to return to downtown and the city. ‘

Above italicized quote was from Post Standard ‘s own editorial in 2003 called 40 years later (1963 to 2003).

I was just a young kid but I remember the conversations of families we knew who were affected back then and their emotion regarding their houses being torn down , the effect of the incessant construction noise and dirt etc from having their streets impacted from Rte 81 being built , arguments over the loss of neighbors, turning their prior multiple block long streets turned into dead ends etc. in their conversations, they blamed the city, city developers and the mayor for their plight.

I think there is some revisionist history as stated going on because of the irony regarding the Walsh’s and the understandable avoidance of publicly tarnishing his long positive legacy years after his death.

My point was that this Rte 81 situation wasn’t initiated by the suburbs , in fact much of the original Rte 81 decision was made by the city to try to stem the flight to the suburbs where major employers like GE, Carrier, Pass and Seymour, Solvay Process, GM etc were already located. Shoppingtown was built in 1954, Fairmont Fair in 1959, Bayberry in 1957. The suburbs were expanding well before Rte 81 and many not even targeted for highway access were growing the quickest. (Fayetteville, Manlius, Westvale, Camillus etc). I love the city, born, raised and owned my first home within the city but the fact is that unless you are a government employee, hospital employee, university employee or service employee related to those employers most of the largest city’s employers are within a quarter to a half mile within the city. The only available land and parking for large employers was in the suburbs even back in the 50’s. The people were following the employers to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers followed the people. The city has become the crucial ‘service capital’ for all of Onondaga County for government, hospital and college services. As others have stated, the city needs the suburbs and the suburbs need the city so it would be nice to stop the divisiveness that seems to overwhelm every issue in today’s world and respect and evaluate everyone’s needs into play.

The decision to ram the freeway through the middle of Syracuse was one that was essentially forced on the city. Maybe Mayor Walsh was a proponent of the urban renewal effects it promised to have, but he didn't really have much say in the matter, aside from maybe having some sway as to which houses and buildings got to be knocked down.

 

[reedny]

Syracuse Mayor Anthony Henninger called the editorials "very good and very timely."

He echoed the paper's thoughts, believing elevated highways had "ruined other cities," and would "imprison" the downtown district and prevent any new growth.

Henninger said he was certain that he would be able to stop any thinking about an elevated highway, and said he and local officials "were on top of this and we will keep after it."

Throwback Thursday: Editorials, Syracuse mayor condemn elevated I-81 in 1958

Interesting city/suburbs debate. In Rochester, we don't have an interstate slicing through the middle of downtown - there was a beltway (inner loop) but they've filled most of it in. Like Syracuse, the City has been successful revitalizing its entertainment districts and attracting new residents. Empty-nesters and Millenialls have helped tremendously. I have to say that the Syracuse center-city might be more vibrant. It looks nothing like it did when I went to graduate school back in the day. The trick will be convincing those young people to stay and raise families.

Competition is keen. There are job opportunities and better weather elsewhere. One of the biggest obstacles, at least in Rochester, is poverty and its impact on the overall community. Here, 50% of the residents (mostly on the West side) fit the federal definition. That means Crime. It means Urban blight. Homelessness. Addiction. Rampant school truancy. Low graduation rates. And the diversion of lots of tax dollars for costly social services and law enforcement. Add these fiscal and social ills to typical urban annoyances - traffic, noise and the like - and you have serious quality of life issues. Despite decades of investment in education and neighborhood revitalization, many legacy problems persist - especially failing schools - that drove better educated/more affluent residents into the suburbs decades ago.

In some respects, Rochester has been its own worst enemy - scoring about a D in closing the suburban-urban economic divide. It has made some progress with schools and constructed attractive signage and landscaping to mark City neighborhoods. But residents and visitors want to feel safe, and the City uses community policing only in high-crime areas. Elsewhere the cops are absent or sit in their cars. City "planners" have widened streets to facilitate traffic, making it more difficult for pedestrians and visitors to navigate. Parking is a nightmare - especially in popular areas that draw millennials and suburbanites. Instead of buying land and offering better options, the City prefers to send out brigades of meter maids to extort revenue. Enforcement is unmerciful - fees are sky high and if you're unlucky enough to have your car towed, good luck - you won't be returning anytime soon. There are tons of potholes and one-way streets that make transiting downtown difficult, and except for the ball park and public market, the City offers few 'destinations' - places where people can get out of their cars, walk around, enjoy themselves and buy things.

The point is ... there are a lot of factors at work, in both cities, that have nothing to do with highway location.