Does the frustration of the fanbase even matter to the AD?

[SUFan44]

I think it's going to be harder to stay good. I don't have the numbers but the shooting is so much better. There is a chance the next coach can get us back by recruiting really well. But I think the rest of basketball has gotten smarter and boeheims relative advantage in intelligence has decreased (he's as smart as ever, everyone else is less dumb)

Better three point shooting has increased parity in my opinion

I usually agree with you but we are not even remotely close here.

It's Syracuse University basketball. We have the best fans in the country, best big-game atmosphere, our facilities in basketball are on par with any, and they're in a great league. Add to that a great history, and why on earth do you say there is just "a chance"?

We have exactly one Top 50 recruit since Tyus Battle in 2016 (using 247) and it's Benny Williams. I don't understand how it can get much worse? It's lazy. Because Boeheim is old and not willing to do anything outside of what he wants to do.

UConn has recruited at a higher level. UConn. Go on down the list.

There's not a shadow of a doubt if you put the time in and can develop relationships, you can recruit better than we have.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Specifically:
“He’s been here so long,” Jurich said. “He’s got a lot of friends too. Friends take care of their own friends. I understand that.”

He added: “I don’t think there’s any other way I could have handled it.”

THAT SAID...if he doesnt have a Rick Pitino in 2001 level replacement, its going to be even tougher

Shrewd but made the right move. Committed to winning.

 

[007]

Denny Crum is a good comparison, here is his final 8 years. I saw him in the Elite 8 at the dome in 96-97. He followed that up with 2 losing seasons and 2 tournament appearances, kind of a rollercoaster in an easier league by comparison. Does anybody remember, did he retire gracefully or forced out for Rick Pitino?

993-94	Louisville	Metro	34	28	6	.824	18.77	7.41	7	5	10	Reg. Season Champion; Conf. Tournament Champion; NCAA Tournament
1994-95	Louisville	Metro	33	19	14	.576	11.60	7.81				Conf. Tournament Champion; NCAA Tournament
1995-96	Louisville	CUSA	34	22	12	.647	15.18	9.85	12	12	24	NCAA Tournament
1996-97	Louisville	CUSA	35	26	9	.743	11.98	7.72		6	25	NCAA Tournament
1997-98	Louisville	CUSA	32	12	20	.375	7.90	9.03	25	19
1998-99	Louisville	CUSA	30	19	11	.633	15.38	8.28		24		NCAA Tournament
1999-00	Louisville	CUSA	31	19	12	.613	14.93	8.76		25		NCAA Tournament
2000-01	Louisville	CUSA	31	12	19	.387	2.83	8.67

Not sure how relevant the comparison is, but Crum "retired" with 2 years left on his contract after going 64-64 over his last 4 seasons. In his last season, he was 12-19.

"Crum had promised to return next season, touting the incoming class as one of his best in years. But he met with athletic director Tom Jurich on Jan. 25 after Jurich was quoted as saying he could not guarantee Crum would be back. Crum's strained relationship with Jurich escalated last week with the release of confidential memos between the two."

Crum ESPN Article

 

[TheCusian]

I don't understand this perspective, because it doesn't seem rooted in the reality of the program's decline. It would be one thing if this were a one-off bad season, or if JB were still orchestrating 20-8 seasons, and fans were just lamenting that he'd lost a little off of his fastball.

But this ISN'T just "one bad year," and it isn't the "fan base... ready to throw it away" over a blip on the radar.

People can bury their heads in the sand all they'd like, but they can't hide from the FACT that we've had 12+ losses for 8 consecutive years. During that span, we dodged two NIT outcomes that would have tainted the record even further by opting out of the postseason in 2014, and due to COVID cancelling the 2020 season. We're perennially on the bubble. We aren't competing for ACC titles. When we play top 10 programs nowadays, we've gotten curb stomped. And now we're staring a losing record in the face, with one game to go in the regular season.

So it isn't just "one bad year." And we can't pretend that the steady decline isn't relevant, nor that the finish line isn't rapidly approaching for JB, one way or the other.

Until recently, I would have agreed wholeheartedly that JB would be able to call his own shot, and had earned that right. But we've already seen cracks in the foundation. Wildhack reportedly told him to knock it off with throwing players under the bus earlier this year. JB reportedly isn't listening much to his AC's these days. And the net result is dysfunction.

The same attributes that made Boeheim a HOF coach -- dogged stubborness, competitiveness to the point of being combative, etc. -- are now undermining him, and hurting the program. He might believe that he can pull us out of this tail spin, but the results -- garnered over an extended period of time -- suggest otherwise.

And there's more. The dynamics of the college basketball landscape are changing. NIL. Transfer portal. You can't berate players incessantly and expect them to stick around anymore.

Again, we're not talking about one bad year that happened in year 27, that fans are overreacting to. This is the CULMINATION of a lot of smaller problems that together are much bigger than a bread box.

1. I didn't say there wasn't a downturn. I said there was one bad year. It's a relative take, granted. We've had multiple bubble years before. This one can be explained a bit (though it's likely a mix of a lot of things, to your point).

2. Isn't it suspicious that our "decline" is happening at the same time as our inclusion in the ACC? I know the ACC has been down the last couple of years - any maybe we're swept up in whatever that is? Money flowing to SEC and B1G teams? Etc.

3. Our downturn was certainly helped by the sanctions. We've not regained our recruiting perch or momentum since. I know most Syracuse fans think we got railroaded by the NCAA. I'm in that camp.

4. Regardless, the rush to condemn the coach for this things as 100% his fault is weird and the smart posters here seemingly embraced it without asking the questions above? It reeks of "we're not used to losing, let's rush to fire the HC" that the SEC rolls with in CFB. I hate that stuff. Unhappy fans decide not to dig deep but instead rush to pin the outcomes solely on the HC? Lame stuff. We can do better.

5. I'm def open to the idea that he needs to change and that he may be unable to in the times of NIL and transfer portal. But we've had good guys transfer in and we're not impotent on the recruiting trail. His name still counts for something. There's no doubt we need to do better at getting and retaining talent - but it's not being run off at a clip that suggests we're doing any worse than any other P5 program, I think?

6. He's still earned a long leash. The program got built by this guy. 46 years of really, really good results. A slight downturn and a bad year isn't going to get it done.

 

[RF2044]

1. I didn't say there wasn't a downturn. I said there was one bad year. It's a relative take, granted. We've had multiple bubble years before. This one can be explained a bit (though it's likely a mix of a lot of things, to your point).

2. Isn't it suspicious that our "decline" is happening at the same time as our inclusion in the ACC? I know the ACC has been down the last couple of years - any maybe we're swept up in whatever that is? Money flowing to SEC and B1G teams? Etc.

3. Our downturn was certainly helped by the sanctions. We've not regained our recruiting perch or momentum since. I know most Syracuse fans think we got railroaded by the NCAA. I'm in that camp.

4. Regardless, the rush to condemn the coach for this things as 100% his fault is weird and the smart posters here seemingly embraced it without asking the questions above? It reeks of "we're not used to losing, let's rush to fire the HC" that the SEC rolls with in CFB. I hate that stuff. Unhappy fans decide not to dig deep but instead rush to pin the outcomes solely on the HC? Lame stuff. We can do better.

5. I'm def open to the idea that he needs to change and that he may be unable to in the times of NIL and transfer portal. But we've had good guys transfer in and we're not impotent on the recruiting trail. His name still counts for something. There's no doubt we need to do better at getting and retaining talent - but it's not being run off at a clip that suggests we're doing any worse than any other P5 program, I think?

6. He's still earned a long leash. The program got built by this guy. 46 years of really, really good results. A slight downturn and a bad year isn't going to get it done.

Reasonable post.

But the problem is that you are expressing the belief that this is a "slight downturn."

Order of magnitude, its far more than that.

 

[Symphony Steve]

The frustration of the fan base clearly 'matters' to the AD. The question is, is he the dog, or the tail wagging the dog? In other words, does JB call the shots, or does Wildhack?

I think Wildhack will get rid of JB if he has the power to do so. In other words, our dog/tail question will be answered for us.

 

[Dave]

I don’t want or advocate JB should be fired.
JB doesn’t want to retire and he isn’t getting it done. Wildhack needs him to make some changes or ask him to retire.
The status quo isn’t working.
JB says stuff because he is spinning a point to try and calm things down. Problem is JB is just saying things.

JB made an astonishing concession. He said the game is changing (it is, deep shooters are more and more common) and that he expects to go to a mix of zone and man. One of the most stubborn and successful men in our sphere is ready to adapt. Obviously he sees it. Obviously many of those to whom this rosters limitations were obvious didn’t develop their clarity until things went south. I am successful at what I do. I suspect like most everyone on this board my success is as the grain of sand to the ocean when compared to JAB. I can’t wait to see just how he proves the doubters wrong as he has so often. It is painful to see one of the most feared programs come down to Earth. Thankfully the solutions will not come from this board.

 

[MSOrange]

JB made an astonishing concession. He said the game is changing (it is, deep shooters are more and more common) and that he expects to go to a mix of zone and man. One of the most stubborn and successful men in our sphere is ready to adapt. Obviously he sees it. Obviously many of those to whom this rosters limitations were obvious didn’t develop their clarity until things went south. I am successful at what I do. I suspect like most everyone on this board my success is as the grain of sand to the ocean when compared to JAB. I can’t wait to see just how he proves the doubters wrong as he has so often. It is painful to see one of the most feared programs come down to Earth. Thankfully the solutions will not come from this board.

I hope it's true and not another episode of "JB says things."

 

[81South]

JB takes the vow ‘til death do we part’ very seriously and he clearly has applied that to coaching at this school.

 

[Arangeman]

JB made an astonishing concession. He said the game is changing (it is, deep shooters are more and more common) and that he expects to go to a mix of zone and man. One of the most stubborn and successful men in our sphere is ready to adapt. Obviously he sees it. Obviously many of those to whom this rosters limitations were obvious didn’t develop their clarity until things went south. I am successful at what I do. I suspect like most everyone on this board my success is as the grain of sand to the ocean when compared to JAB. I can’t wait to see just how he proves the doubters wrong as he has so often. It is painful to see one of the most feared programs come down to Earth. Thankfully the solutions will not come from this board.

Lol. “The game is changing!” It changed years ago. The fact that JB is now willing to acknowledge it or just sees it doesn’t really support the JB is a genius theory.

Any idiot knows the game has massively changed. And with a modicum of foresight, saw it coming years ago. I know this because I’m pretty much an idiot as are most my friends and we have been bringing this up for years.

 

[Arangeman]

FWIW, I have been told repeatedly by very connected people that JW definitely cares about what the fans think and fully understands the frustration. The type of pot shots being made in this and similar threads are, to be kind, misguided and uniformed. I don't necessarily expect anyone to take my assertions at face value. We are all entitled to our opinions. But, I would encourage people to look at the model that we have already seen play out with the football program. Tremendous resources and private donations have been dedicated (with more to come), obstacles to success have been identified and prioritized, directives were given to address staff and program issues, and the HC was given the budget to attract high quality additions. This was all done, with purpose and a plan, behind the scenes, without calling anyone out publicly, and without dedicating funds to a buy out.

When it comes to replacing a living legend and the face of Syracuse basketball, the issues are compounded, multifaceted and nuanced despite the heart-felt emotional reactions by some that this should be black and white. It's not. To think that JW is unaware, doesn't care, can't or refuses to do anything, is accepting of mediocrity, is only interested in cashing checks, or whatever else you guys come up with, is...misguided.

I won't pretend to know any of the details or even guess at the specifics, but I believe that contingency plans have been developed and are being adapted as events unfold. Candidates have been identified (ongoing). Difficult discussions are going on behind closed doors. And none of that will be made public by the AD, at least not during the process. JB's exit will be handled with dignity. He has earned the right to be part of the process, but is not the ultimate decision maker. Let's hope he doesn't try to force his will.

Great info. If that is the case, this should be happening now. Not next year or the year after.

My fear is his friendship and reverence for JB will drag this out further than it should be. Been told it’s clear who wears the pants.

 

[Millhouse]

I usually agree with you but we are not even remotely close here.

It's Syracuse University basketball. We have the best fans in the country, best big-game atmosphere, our facilities in basketball are on par with any, and they're in a great league. Add to that a great history, and why on earth do you say there is just "a chance"?

We have exactly one Top 50 recruit since Tyus Battle in 2016 (using 247) and it's Benny Williams. I don't understand how it can get much worse? It's lazy. Because Boeheim is old and not willing to do anything outside of what he wants to do.

UConn has recruited at a higher level. UConn. Go on down the list.

There's not a shadow of a doubt if you put the time in and can develop relationships, you can recruit better than we have.

Get us back to being great. I don't think it's a sure thing. I think it's a much better bet than our next guy is not going to be as good as the guy with 1000 wins

 

[007]

Get us back to being great. I don't think it's a sure thing. I think it's a much better bet than our next guy is not going to be as good as the guy with 1000 wins

It's pretty much an absolute certainty that the next guy will not come close to matching JB's 1000 win HOF career. But, we do need him to be much better than the JB of the last 7 seasons. That's a more attainable goal.

 

[sufandu]

I think it's going to be harder to stay good. I don't have the numbers but the shooting is so much better. There is a chance the next coach can get us back by recruiting really well. But I think the rest of basketball has gotten smarter and boeheims relative advantage in intelligence has decreased (he's as smart as ever, everyone else is less dumb)

Better three point shooting has increased parity in my opinion

I think it's more complex than that. It used be that you could build a team over the course of 2-3 years. Find developmental guys. Get a stud here or there. And you have a really good team that can contend for a final four if all the chips fall into place. Then the great ahtletes that we would develop into stars started leaving for the pros before they developed and became the stars of previous eras. Then the portal allowed depth guys to leave hunting for more playing time. Combine that with the reports that JB isn't hitting the recruiting trail as hard as he once did, and it makes for a bad roster.

Some other programs have managed to find guys that make for great college players but aren't as enticing to the NBA as our Jeremy Grants, so they stick around a little longer. Maybe they're quick penetrating guards that are too short to jump early to the league or they're physical big men lacking elite athleticism. Well, neither of those are ideal for the zone, so we haven't recruited them despite having success with both in the past. I think JB has had a tougher time navigating those changes.

JB is certainly smart, but I think he has been inflexible recently. That has hurt him as much as anything.

 

[sufandu]

Get us back to being great. I don't think it's a sure thing. I think it's a much better bet than our next guy is not going to be as good as the guy with 1000 wins

Is the current JB as good as the guy that got to the first 900 wins?

 

[Dave]

Lol. “The game is changing!” It changed years ago. The fact that JB is now willing to acknowledge it or just sees it doesn’t really support the JB is a genius theory.

Any idiot knows the game has massively changed. And with a modicum of foresight, saw it coming years ago. I know this because I’m pretty much an idiot as are most my friends and we have been bringing this up for years.

That Boeheim is a basketball genius is beyond a theory. Yeah, you saw it coming. You cannot change the constitution of a so team quickly as, say your fantasy team.

 

[Sherman20]

Bad time to talk crap about providence considering they’re top 10…

Providence’s AP rank is much higher compared to their efficiency metrics. They’re 34 in KenPom and UNC is 39, not a big difference there.

 

[Sherman20]

Specifically:
“He’s been here so long,” Jurich said. “He’s got a lot of friends too. Friends take care of their own friends. I understand that.”

He added: “I don’t think there’s any other way I could have handled it.”

THAT SAID...if he doesnt have a Rick Pitino in 2001 level replacement, its going to be even tougher

How about an actual Rick Pitino?

 

[Sherman20]

Not sure how relevant the comparison is, but Crum "retired" with 2 years left on his contract after going 64-64 over his last 4 seasons. In his last season, he was 12-19.

"Crum had promised to return next season, touting the incoming class as one of his best in years. But he met with athletic director Tom Jurich on Jan. 25 after Jurich was quoted as saying he could not guarantee Crum would be back. Crum's strained relationship with Jurich escalated last week with the release of confidential memos between the two."

Crum ESPN Article

Crum is a very good comparison to JB. But Wildhack pushing out JB has the added advantage that JB is 14 years older than 64 year old Crum, who won 2 titles btw and was one of the all-time greats. It’s time for JB to ride off into the sunset and enjoy retirement. That ESPN article on Jurich pushing out Crum was very instructive.

 

[TheCusian]

Reasonable post.

But the problem is that you are expressing the belief that this is a "slight downturn."

Order of magnitude, its far more than that.

Is it?

I don‘t think we need to argue the finer points to decide to move on from a HOF coach. That’s my whole point.

If we finish worse next year than this year, I’d be swayed. But we just made the sweet 16 last season. There’s a case to be made that the CBB has shifted too much under his feet. I just don’t see the overwhelming evidence to support that claim, yet.

 

[MSOrange]

Is it?

I don‘t think we need to argue the finer points to decide to move on from a HOF coach. That’s my whole point.

If we finish worse next year than this year, I’d be swayed. But we just made the sweet 16 last season. There’s a case to be made that the CBB has shifted too much under his feet. I just don’t see the overwhelming evidence to support that claim, yet.

We have a 590 winning percentage the last 8 seasons after JB had a 74% winning percentage most of his career. You don't consider that more than a slight downturn or something to be concerned about yet?

 

[phil77]

However, there are many schools out there that would take three NCAA appearances in five years including two Sweet Sixteens. Sure, it's well below our expectations but mediocrity would be more along the lines of zero post season appearances.

I think this is the problem we aren't "many" other schools we are Syracuse. We shouldn't strive to be Arizona State, Kansas State, or Miami we are better than that. Our expectations should be higher than being mediocre for a decade but we had those two tournaments where we randomly won two games let's celebrate. Being on the bubble for 8 straight years is mediocrity for Syracuse.

We should be competing for ACC titles. We should be bringing in very strong recruiting classes. We should be ranked every year. I can deal with a down year of 18-13 and on the bubble every once in a while but I will not lower my expectations for the program because the coach holds sentimental value. Those two things can be independent. We have spent more time this last decade on the bubble than being ranked.

 

[SUFan44]

Get us back to being great. I don't think it's a sure thing. I think it's a much better bet than our next guy is not going to be as good as the guy with 1000 wins

I don't disagree. Next guy might not be the answer, even. But I present to you Kevin Ollie, Dan Hurley, and every post-Calhoun hire.

Has it been Calhoun? No. But that's UConn. Forgive me if I think SU can compete with UConn.

Right now we aren't competitive with them, or really many Top 25 teams. We haven't won a single game against a ranked team. We haven't really been close, if we want to be honest.

We aren't good. We are below average for a P5 team. Well below average.

We are 9th of 14 ACC teams in KenPom rating.

Syracuse would be dead last (11 out of 11) in the Big 12, 12th of 15 in the Big Ten, 11th of 15 in the SEC, 9th of 12 in the Big East, 7th of 13 in the Pac 12 (added a team to include SU).

All told, we are better than 16 P5 schools.

If you'd like me to go through our rankings the last 7 years, I can. But this isn't about us getting back to being great. It's about getting us back to being Top 40 and not on the bubble every year.

That's not "great again" - it's just being good again.

 

[SUFan44]

It's pretty much an absolute certainty that the next guy will not come close to matching JB's 1000 win HOF career. But, we do need him to be much better than the JB of the last 7 seasons. That's a more attainable goal.

Exactly this.

 

[miamicuse]

How about this for next season?

First promote JB to coach emeritus. He is still involved, coach, run practices, help recruit and on the side lines during games, he will play the role of obi wan kenobi. He will help guide Red but Red makes all the decisions.

Promote Red to interim HC. Test it for one year, with JB by his side. See what he can do.

At the same time ADJW conducts a national wide search, with Red on the candidate list.

Will this work or a disaster waiting to happen?