Dome Renovation

[sutomcat]

Sure, those add rooms to inch toward a larger total (10,000). But none of these would serve as an official NCAA venue. Tom covers this well:



Agree with most of this, but I don't think the NCAA would use Turning Stone (ignoring the gaming concern, it's too far away) and the Doubletree (formerly a Marriott, no?) is large enough but wouldn't be considered sufficiently upscale. They usually stick to Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt/Sheraton-Westin/Radisson types.

[As an aside, downtown improves with every passing day, but it's interesting how many local upscale hotel flags have been replaced by mid-market brands in the last generation. Some of that probably reflects changes in the industry, but it's probably also driven by some negative changes in the CNY economy that, ironically, people like me tend to gloss over.]

It isn't ideal, I grant you that. According to Google Maps, Turning Stone is 37 miles from Syracuse, but it is on an Interstate and there is little traffic. Not much different from 5 miles in a place like Atlanta where traffic is a disaster. Some might like being in a quiet setting where you can literally take your tennis racquet or golf clubs and walk from your hotel room and play.

I know a lot of visiting teams stay at the Doubletree these days (it is where they choose to stay) and I know it has been used repeatedly as a spot to host teams and their fans for the Eastern Regionals. It isn't bad. I believe it was a Wyndham before Doubletree.

If the NCAA wants to bring a Final Four to a site in the Northeast, they have only one option. It will require some rule bending but I think if this renovation happens, it is doable. I am just excited to be discussing the possibility something this great could happen to our area.

 

[Bayside44]

that works for us because we're used to it. And a parking garage vs. an open air large set of lots, well there's really no comparision for tailgating, atmosphere, etc. And, again, the fact you have to look for parking is what the problem is for so many. YES we can all find it and have for 35 years, just saying it would be real nice for this not to be an issue or concern. Crazy that this could actually happen.

A lot of people here have posted how the NFL big lot experience is rather awful. And it really is. It seems like you're trading one inconvenience for another.

Having done both give me a college campus 100x out of 100.

(yeah I know I don't live there...)

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I agree with this. I view it as similar to people complaining about rush hour traffic in Syracuse. Yeah, it's worse than it is the rest of the time, but compared to just about everywhere else, it doesn't exist. I've been to many different stadia and arenas. In my experience, traffic and parking for SU games is pretty average. Some places are better, some are worse (much worse).

A recent example, I was at the Giants-Cowboys game this last Sunday. My friend, who took me to the game, has a box that he is seriously considering giving up, because of the mess that is parking and traffic at MetLife. He dreads having to go through it for every game. And we were parked in the F lot, which is adjacent to the stadium. It took 20 minutes to go from the car to the box. We didn't get home until 9:45 (2 hours after the game ended) and we live a half hour from the stadium.

Are there no trains available? I know you can take trains to The Link in Philly.

 

[Millhouse]

This project strengthens the long term health of a non profit organization which benefits the syracuse area in countless ways. The school spends $1b every year much of which flows directly into the local economy, it serves as a cultural and knowledge hub which benefits anyone who cares enough to come to campus to soak up all that is available, it's existence allows many area business owners to thrive and allows for the local development of 'new economy' businesses that require an educated work force, and it brings smart motivated people to the area who benefit the local population in myriad ways. There is nothing that syracuse has going for it that is ,ore important than their anchor university. Supporting that isn't a waste, it's a necessity.

If you don't see how the unique culture of syracuse university is continued and enhanced by this and how a move to the mall would take away from that, then I feel like you don't really understand what that place is about to the students who go there and the alumni who support the school and the athletic programs. Intangibles like brand value are worth much more than the direct economic return on an investment in further developing them. Buffett invests by looking at brand value and it's sustainability over time - this is a similar scenario. SU sports benefit the university and the university benefits the city - locals get to be a part of that but make no mistake that the sports teams are a resource of the university first and the community second, even though local fan support is crucial.

the BS detector goes off when you start trying to value intangibles. people can plug whatever they want. the dome on campus costs a billion dollar? uh the intangibles are worth 1.1 billion that's the ticket!

the dome being off campus doesn't threaten any of those things you talk about in the first paragraph at all

i want it on campus. i just don't need it to be fancy and I don't want to take other people's money to do it just because cuomo might decide to give all our money to a solar panel company in alabama, ny instead

if we're going to ask other people to pay a lot of money for it, then it should be made easily available to other people to use. if they want it on campus, fine but don't take as much money

 

[OttoMets]

Would they ever consider shuttles for the outermost destiny parking lots as dedicated tailgating space? Charge $10 per car with the only requirement that they present game day tickets.

If they don't put the stadium at the inner harbor, I don't see how those lots next to Bear St will ever get used.

I think that has the potential to be terrific for Destiny and SU (and any fans who like that option).

 

[sutomcat]

Have you heard something in this regard? Last I knew they abandoned negotiations with the county. Reasons unknown.

They get a sizable percentage of their business from visiting Canadians. As the mall gets bigger and better, it becomes a destination more than just a shopping mall. People come from all around, not just Canada, to visit it and spend time. For many, a day is not/will not be sufficient. This is what DestinyUSA management has been driving for from day one.

There is, IMHO, money to be made building a big hotel, preferably directly attached to the mall. IMHO, it is going to be built. Congel is just waiting for a handout to help him build it, confident our politicians will eventually kowtow and give it to him. No one was going to give him anything for a hotel until the much desired anchor hotel for the downtown convention center was landed (which recently happened).

But the important thing is, there is money to be made. That means a hotel will come, at some point.

 

[OttoMets]

It isn't ideal, I grant you that. According to Google Maps, Turning Stone is 37 miles from Syracuse, but it is on an Interstate and there is little traffic. Not much different from 5 miles in a place like Atlanta where traffic is a disaster. Some might like being in a quiet setting where you can literally take your tennis racquet or golf clubs and walk from your hotel room and play.

I know a lot of visiting teams stay at the Doubletree these days (it is where they choose to stay) and I know it has been used repeatedly as a spot to host teams and their fans for the Eastern Regionals. It isn't bad. I believe it was a Wyndham before Doubletree.

If the NCAA wants to bring a Final Four to a site in the Northeast, they have only one option. It will require some rule bending but I think if this renovation happens, it is doable. I am just excited to be discussing the possibility something this great could happen to our area.

Again, agree with a lot of this, but a little background:

My understanding is that visiting teams choose the Doubletree because it's the least offensive of the local options. In my experience, many coaches prefer a big hotel with predictable food, a Starwood/Hilton/Marriott property, some distance between campus and the hotel, some meeting space, and double rooms that aren't too cramped. They just don't want any more staff time than necessary spent on this sort of non-basketball minutiae, so they tend to be consistent.

When I was in college, this meant Marriott. If a city didn't have one, our assistant coach in charge of travel booked a Crowne Plaza (which, incidentally, highlighted one of the reasons head coaches don't like to stray from their preferred hotels: the banquet staff put out alfredo sauce [never on the pregame menu] in addition to marinara at our pregame meal at the Crowne Plaza in Worcester one time and our head coach lost his mind). Another time we were in an off-brand hotel someplace (don't remember the hotel or the city) and we had to review film in the coach's suite because the hotel didn't have meeting space with audio-visual capabilities. Again, coaches hate this.

In Onondaga County, with the only Sheraton (some teams stay here, but many won't) practically on campus, the Crowne Plaza having an odd design with tiny rooms, the Genesee Grande with no brand affiliation, and little else, the Doubletree wins: Hilton Honors points for the program, reliable meeting space, low probability of goofy students wandering in and knocking on doors or pulling fire alarms. But if Carrier Circle or downtown had a slightly nicer brand hotel, the Doubletree wouldn't get all those bookings.

 

[Millhouse]

I do think Syverud and a number of developers envision a very different landscape between Irving and Townsend Street (now mainly parking lots and institutional buildings) in ten years, when this project will be completed.

The current demarcation between West Campus, Marshall Street, and downtown will become blurred and we're going to see a lot more in the way of development to support the stadium renovation. The idea is that the stadium and associated development will create a synergy that builds on itself - more hotels, bars, restaurants, and retail.

Agree that access falls somewhere between a concern or a perceived concern, and mass transit will be part of the solution.

I also haven't heard anything to suggest that public money will directly fund a Dome reconstruction.

We'll see. Exciting times.

That would be cool. This might be blasphemy but Marshall Street kinda blows now. Maybe they build something similar to what they did by u of Rochester connecting to it

http://www.collegetownrochester.com/

 

[Crusty]

You could see this coming a mile away, and I said so at the time. Cuomo, Mahoney and Syverud simply worked around her.

Everyone seems to forget that Mayor Miner put the kibosh on plans to build a new $495 million on the site of the former Kennedy Square housing project between University Hill and the heart of downtown. (One of many articles.)

In a tiff because the state would not give her $15 million for new sewers, Miner would not back the plan conceived by the county and state. Also, Miner is by profession a labor attorney, with whose backing is how she got elected in the first place, and she wanted guarantees of labor union workers in the construction contracts. That was never going to happen. Remember, it is the work rules as much as the higher hourly rates that balloon costs when union labor is involved.

Miner called for a commission to study the plan and the state, county and SU declined to participate. What does that tell you?

So, you can thank Mayor Miner (appropriate name) for the "community" losing out. (Although I don't think it matters much on the margin where the facility is located.)

Do not be surprised to see the university or some other entity actually build the facility and then do a sale-leaseback with the state to avoid union labor. The state will probably set up some commission to run the facility and SU will be the major tenant. The state will issue long term bonds to finance it, which will be amortized by the SU lease. Remember SU can lease only the stadium portion and continue to own the rest.

This will be a win-win situation for all parties. As for the City of Syracuse, go ask Mayor Miner what happened to the half billion dollar investment that could have wound up near downtown.

Be thankful that The Good Chancellor has a backbone and will not be deterred by some local petty politician.

 

[Crusty]

It isn't ideal, I grant you that. According to Google Maps, Turning Stone is 37 miles from Syracuse, but it is on an Interstate and there is little traffic. Not much different from 5 miles in a place like Atlanta where traffic is a disaster. Some might like being in a quiet setting where you can literally take your tennis racquet or golf clubs and walk from your hotel room and play.

I know a lot of visiting teams stay at the Doubletree these days (it is where they choose to stay) and I know it has been used repeatedly as a spot to host teams and their fans for the Eastern Regionals. It isn't bad. I believe it was a Wyndham before Doubletree.

If the NCAA wants to bring a Final Four to a site in the Northeast, they have only one option. It will require some rule bending but I think if this renovation happens, it is doable. I am just excited to be discussing the possibility something this great could happen to our area.

Don't you think the uptight NCAA would shy away from an Indian Gambling Casino hotel?

 

[NJCuse97]

The new administration, if they move forward w these plans, are smartly realizing the effectiveness of tying the Dome into the rest of the campus in a modern fashion. Such a progressive viewpoint of this amazing asset on campus. It's a huge win for the university and the students, who are the most important component to this equation.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...ands-155-renovation-plan-for-cole-field-house

Older article. 2014. At that point, they were targeting a 2017 opening for part of the job. Since then the architect has been hired and no, it's not the same firm as the one who did the initial studies (Populous). The winning firm is the same firm that did Einsley. They were not the firm that did the initial studies for that building either.

Those completion dates are aggressive and they don't have to build around active seasons. So there is state funding here, but that is in part because it is a state school. That said, my understanding is that the state and the administration would not fund a facility that is just for athletics. Introducing the academic and research aspects was a way to get the state money on board. Plank is handling the football chunk. Renovation of an existing building and it's a $155 million budget according to this article. With all that is being pie in the sky proposed for the Dome, I am not at all shocked by a potential $400 million price tag. I can easily see $500 million if there are extremes to staging and phasing and working around an occupied facility. The estimate would probably take into account escalation, insurance (general conditions) and contingency.

We are at the very beginning of this process, not the end. I love the ideas, and I love the excitement, but I don't want the fan base to turn on the administration because it is incorrectly perceived they are taking too long, or dropping the ball.

 

[Cuseregular]

A lot of people here have posted how the NFL big lot experience is rather awful. And it really is. It seems like you're trading one inconvenience for another.

Having done both give me a college campus 100x out of 100.

(yeah I know I don't live there...)

Interesting, I never thought of that and guess I just don't get it. I LOVE the tailgate scene when we play in NJ and the pro games I've been to. Different strokes I guess. Either way I'm good personally as a Dome location is easy peasy for me so I don't have a stake in it except I'd like to see maximium fan attendance and want them to do whatever they can to make that easier. If they really do plan on doing what that one poster said to transform the ENTIRE area then great, I'll all in.

 

[FrancoPizza]

They get a sizable percentage of their business from visiting Canadians. As the mall gets bigger and better, it becomes a destination more than just a shopping mall. People come from all around, not just Canada, to visit it and spend time. For many, a day is not/will not be sufficient.

I believe the counter-argument the county was making is that those who do visit from Canada (as an example) already probably spend a night at one of the nearby hotels... and that building an all-suite facility attached to the mall would just cannibalize the existing business. As much as I'd like to see a nice spanking hotel attached to the mall, and even acknowledging that it's one of the few malls in its peer group without a hotel, I wonder if it's just a zero-sum game when it comes to overnight stays. The whole premise destiny was pitching is that it would encourage visitors to spend more time in the area. That being said, if they don't overbuild, an attached hotel would draw steady business... so it's just a matter of how long destiny will wait to see if a handout comes along. The city awarded a 20-year PILOT to the downtown armory hotel that was just built... and destiny was asking for similar arrangements... only to get rebuffed. Those lots could be undeveloped for awhile longer.

 

[cuseinchina]

the BS detector goes off when you start trying to value intangibles. people can plug whatever they want. the dome on campus costs a billion dollar? uh the intangibles are worth 1.1 billion that's the ticket!

the dome being off campus doesn't threaten any of those things you talk about in the first paragraph at all

i want it on campus. i just don't need it to be fancy and I don't want to take other people's money to do it just because cuomo might decide to give all our money to a solar panel company in alabama, ny instead

if we're going to ask other people to pay a lot of money for it, then it should be made easily available to other people to use. if they want it on campus, fine but don't take as much money

Short sighted. Glad the chancellor is not nor whoever the participating partners turn out to be. Since you are a glass empty kind of guy, try thinking about the long term hit to brand value we take when we replace something iconic with something that could be in a hundred other cities. Private education at a 40-60th ranked university is no longer a wise choice for most college age kids looking at the roi alone. They are paying a premium for the things that make SU different and special. We need to enhance those things and emphasize them or the model breaks down and everyone loses. Getting the rankings up will help. Investing in the brand though is necessary and prudent. And when you have one viable entity supporting a whole city, it is also prudent for government to support those efforts. Intangibles might be difficult to think about, but long term they matter more than anything.

 

[Crusty]

They get a sizable percentage of their business from visiting Canadians. As the mall gets bigger and better, it becomes a destination more than just a shopping mall. People come from all around, not just Canada, to visit it and spend time. For many, a day is not/will not be sufficient. This is what DestinyUSA management has been driving for from day one.

There is, IMHO, money to be made building a big hotel, preferably directly attached to the mall. IMHO, it is going to be built. Congel is just waiting for a handout to help him build it, confident our politicians will eventually kowtow and give it to him. No one was going to give him anything for a hotel until the much desired anchor hotel for the downtown convention center was landed (which recently happened).

But the important thing is, there is money to be made. That means a hotel will come, at some point.

Mall of America is like that. People come from all over to spend the day (indoors!).

 

[shandeezy7]

I think people are over-blowing the available parking at the Destiny site. The stadium footprint would eliminate the majority of that parking. Destiny might be willing to give up some parking on gameday, but certainly not all of it. You'll just end up with the same situation down there, with numerous parking garages surrounding the stadium. That's the only way to fit in the thousands of cars that would be there for events.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I don't want to take other people's money to do it just because cuomo might decide to give all our money to a solar panel company in alabama

You're probably better off working for United Way or something. Economics is a game that has to be played. You can spout idealistic principles but at the end of the day it has no traction with reality. If you're suggesting you're ok with some other community reaping the benefits of economic stimulus just so you can say you stuck to your guns, well... you might have more in common with our adorable mayor than you think.

 

[GoSU96]

I do think Syverud and a number of developers envision a very different landscape between Irving and Townsend Street (now mainly parking lots and institutional buildings) in ten years, when this project will be completed.

The current demarcation between West Campus, Marshall Street, and downtown will become blurred and we're going to see a lot more in the way of development to support the stadium renovation. The idea is that the stadium and associated development will create a synergy that builds on itself - more hotels, bars, restaurants, and retail.

Agree that access falls somewhere between a concern or a perceived concern, and mass transit will be part of the solution.

I also haven't heard anything to suggest that public money will directly fund a Dome reconstruction.

We'll see. Exciting times.

That sounds great, I hope that the broader development deals with the access concerns.

For an aging population of marginal fans where the home experience is as good or better than going and any difficulty, including parking from further away and walking up the hill is consideration, access is a huge issue. I think access and the time AND effort to make it to the stadium vs the home experience is as big a factor as demographic shift and much, much, much bigger factor than cost.

 

[shandeezy7]

I think people are over-blowing the available parking at the Destiny site. The stadium footprint would eliminate the majority of that parking. Destiny might be willing to give up some parking on gameday, but certainly not all of it. You'll just end up with the same situation down there, with numerous parking garages surrounding the stadium. That's the only way to fit in the thousands of cars that would be there for events.

And for comparison's sake, here is the setup at Ralph Wilson Stadium, which is surrounded by parking lots, versus the current layout of the inner harbor, at the same scale:

Keep in mind that a chunk of that land below Bear Street is already slated for development. You'd need a plot of land twice the size of what is currently there if you want to avoid having to surround the stadium with parking garages instead of lots.

 

[sutomcat]

I believe the counter-argument the county was making is that those who do visit from Canada (as an example) already probably spend a night at one of the nearby hotels... and that building an all-suite facility attached to the mall would just cannibalize the existing business. As much as I'd like to see a nice spanking hotel attached to the mall, and even acknowledging that it's one of the few malls in its peer group without a hotel, I wonder if it's just a zero-sum game when it comes to overnight stays. The whole premise destiny was pitching is that it would encourage visitors to spend more time in the area. That being said, if they don't overbuild, an attached hotel would draw steady business... so it's just a matter of how long destiny will wait to see if a handout comes along. The city awarded a 20-year PILOT to the downtown armory hotel that was just built... and destiny was asking for similar arrangements... only to get rebuffed. Those lots could be undeveloped for awhile longer.

I agree building a hotel at the mall will hurt other hotels nearby to some degree. And for that reason, I don't support government help building a hotel next to the mall. It makes a lot more sense support one built near to the convention center, where it was desperately needed.

I also think if a nice hotel was built next to the mall, it would be a huge success, in part for the reasons OttoMets points out. But I think building a nice hotel that is part of the mall would make it easier for out of town people considering a stay to make that decision. It should drive more people to the mall, bring in people that would not have otherwise considering staying here, and it should drive more revenue to the mall, as well as making a nice profit on its own.

It makes sense to build it, so I think Congel will. I am kind of surprised it hasn't already happened. It should be a no-brainer...

 

[GoSU96]

How does that argument make sense. It is OK for the state to spend money on the infrastructure for access to the dome but not for the dome itself. Your argument rests on philosophical grounds and some pretty fine hair splitting.

Suppose the dome is owned and run by a state agency or authority? Would that be OK?

If the overwhelming beneficiary of the investment is the school and the existing fan base, why shouldn't the school pay for it.
If the intention is to expand usage to additional events, I'm not sure how that location is going to accommodate a significant increase in the number of those events.

The logistics are difficult for the patrons and are going to be disruptive for the students.

 

[KellySyracuse]

And for comparison's sake, here is the setup at Ralph Wilson Stadium, which is surrounded by parking lots, versus the current layout of the inner harbor, at the same scale:

View attachment 53465

Keep in mind that a chunk of that land below Bear Street is already slated for development. You'd need a plot of land twice the size of what is currently there if you want to avoid having to surround the stadium with parking garages instead of lots.

Personally I wouldn't want parking lots surrounding the stadium like Ralph Wilson, what a waste of valuable space. I'd much rather see a better solution for public transportation and surround the stadium with places to go/eat/shop. How often are those lots going to be used for tailgating, at best 7 times a year.

 

[KellySyracuse]

I agree building a hotel at the mall will hurt other hotels nearby to some degree. And for that reason, I don't support government help building a hotel next to the mall. It makes a lot more sense support one built near to the convention center, where it was desperately needed.

I also think if a nice hotel was built next to the mall, it would be a huge success, in part for the reasons OttoMets points out. But I think building a nice hotel that is part of the mall would make it easier for out of town people considering a stay to make that decision. It should drive more people to the mall, bring in people that would not have otherwise considering staying here, and it should drive more revenue to the mall, as well as making a nice profit on its own.

It makes sense to build it, so I think Congel will. I am kind of surprised it hasn't already happened. It should be a no-brainer...

The Hotel Syracuse will be the convention center hotel

 

[Millhouse]

Interesting, I never thought of that and guess I just don't get it. I LOVE the tailgate scene when we play in NJ and the pro games I've been to. Different strokes I guess. Either way I'm good personally as a Dome location is easy peasy for me so I don't have a stake in it except I'd like to see maximium fan attendance and want them to do whatever they can to make that easier. If they really do plan on doing what that one poster said to transform the ENTIRE area then great, I'll all in.

in keeping with my theory that Syracuse needs to be the opposite of the Bills, they should go all in on family friendly quad no hassle pre game.

the non-diehards that want to tailgate can go to buffalo and drink all weekend, dump mustard on pinto ron, powerbomb people through tables, watch a 114 lb hulk hogan impersonator on top of a van. it's majestic there and we'll never be able to compete.

the diehards can still tailgate in doctors office parking lots or out at skytop just fine. i'm thinking of that football fan who isn't going. maybe denser is better

 

[GoSU96]

And for comparison's sake, here is the setup at Ralph Wilson Stadium, which is surrounded by parking lots, versus the current layout of the inner harbor, at the same scale:

View attachment 53465

Keep in mind that a chunk of that land below Bear Street is already slated for development. You'd need a plot of land twice the size of what is currently there if you want to avoid having to surround the stadium with parking garages instead of lots.

71k vs 40 to 45K.