Dome Renovation

[Cuseregular]

The new administration, if they move forward w these plans, are smartly realizing the effectiveness of tying the Dome into the rest of the campus in a modern fashion. Such a progressive viewpoint of this amazing asset on campus. It's a huge win for the university and the students, who are the most important component to this equation.

that's exactly right it is a huge win for the university and the students but if they're going to be taking about 200+million from the state there should be more consideration for the general public good too. Again different if privately funded, have at it, have fun and do what you want.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

great post. All of that makes so much sense that it stands no chance to happen, unfortunately due in part to those with no vision.

I love the way they'll talk about it like its still 1975 or some Love Canal site or something down there. Likely they haven't been down there to see what's been going on, this with a true example of city revitalization and the great things happening down there, granted over a long period of time. It would be far enough away from the treatment plant to make that a non issue too and with all the park like enhancements down there they've done, the fact that they could connect this in with the loop the lake trail that's on it's way to being completed makes all of this a no brainer and good for all. Which, again, is why it won't happen and people will have the pleasure of continuing to fight to find parking, etc. with the hassle of just getting there, and apparently get to look at even more empty seats.

Listen I'm happy their going to do something to signal to the world that they're serious about things finally and again, but just like with the baseball stadium location there would be a way to do this that would hit all bases. It will be great for those of us regulars but will do zero to make it easier for the rest of the community to get on board and support the team. Lost opportunity once again.

And lets face it - "the regulars" would go regardless of where the stadium is located. Im torn however. I love the Dome, I really do. Its cool its on campus and has so much history. The reno ideas seem exciting and at least answer the bell to many questions.

That being said. The downtown area, and specifically to what Go/cuseregular are saying near the mall/innerharbor is just the absoult perfect spot for a new multisport facility that I believe would engage more of the community - "Casual fans" - to attend football games, make game day atmosphere better, open up usage to a broader scale and leverage the resources already available (restaurants bars as such.) As part of the plan I would support public funding of moving and creating a space for all existing Marshall square businesses to have a location in the mall or in the area. Oh and like texanMark said gets some modes of transportation (trains/trolleys etc) to bring students from the hill to the game, mall and armory square so they dont have to walk or drive after drinking. Anyways.

 

[GoSU96]

that's exactly right it is a huge win for the university and the students but if they're going to be taking about 200+million from the state they're should be more consideration for the general public good too. Again different if privately funded, have at it, have fun and do what you want.

Exactly.

 

[KellySyracuse]

Listen I'm happy their going to do something to signal to the world that they're serious about things finally and again, but just like with the baseball stadium location there would be a way to do this that would hit all bases. It will be great for those of us regulars but will do zero to make it easier for the rest of the community to get on board and support the team. Lost opportunity once again.

the baseball stadium is only about one mile away from the inner harbor - The argument that it's in the wrong place only exists because Wolf St., N. Salina St. and Hiawatha Blvd are a virtual wasteland. My point is that since the city has invested so much into the Inner Harbor the county should kick in some dough to improve the area around the ballpark to tie it into the city.

I wouldn't mind the stadium being built by the inner harbor, it's a short walk away from my house, but I see the appeal to want to keep it on the hill. In all honesty I have never bought into the argument that there isn't any parking because I've never had a problem finding it. I think that it's a suburban myth.

 

[sutomcat]

This is as real an obstacle as any. Tough to score a big event when the bulk of the community's hotel rooms are in 120-room mid-market properties. Even if the seating capacity and hotel room number limits were relaxed by the NCAA, they'd still require 4-6 hotels of at least a Marriott/Hilton quality level, each with over 250 rooms. And that's not in the pipeline around here.

I agree, the biggest problem isn't the number of hotel rooms but the number of big hotels in the area.

I believe you need 6 hotels in the 250 room or more range. One for each of the teams competing, one for the press and one for the coaches and their convention.

I think it would make sense to put the coaches and their convention at Turning Stone, which has 709 hotel rooms, including 285 at the Tower and 268 at their normal hotel. You could put the press there too. It is really nice, it is new, there is a lot to do with golf, tennis, the casino, etc. and the teams are not exposed to any gambling influence.

The Doubletree in East Syracuse has 250 rooms.

The proposed hotel at the Dome will have well over 250 rooms.

The Crowne Plaza has 276 rooms.

The Marriott (newly renovated Hotel Syracuse) will have 261 rooms.

And I bet by the time the proposed renovations for the Dome are completed, there will be a similar sized hotel built by Congel at DestinyUSA.

Things are vastly better than they were even 5 or 10 years ago and I think the situation is only going to improve as the downtown Syracuse area continues its remarkable turnaround...

 

[HeaterCuse22]

the baseball stadium is only about one mile away from the inner harbor - The argument that it's in the wrong place only exists because Wolf St., N. Salina St. and Hiawatha Blvd are a virtual wasteland. My point is that since the city has invested so much into the Inner Harbor the county should kick in some dough to improve the area around the ballpark to tie it into the city.

I wouldn't mind the stadium being built by the inner harbor, it's a short walk away from my house, but I see the appeal to want to keep it on the hill. In all honesty I have never bought into the argument that there isn't any parking because I've never had a problem finding it. I think that it's a suburban myth.

To be fair, they had a location in/near Armory square for the baseball stadium and didn't take it. that is a mistake. Oh and if the baseball stadium wasn't separated from the destiny area by 81 it would have been fine.

 

[elimunelson]

Exactly.

If the state is dumping money into this they are getting something back. Afterall ESF is on campus so I would assume something would be coming of that state university. I have no idea how the politics work in these types of situations when public money is getting dumped into a private operation like the Dome. I just look at it from the pie in the sky perspective which is as an alum.

 

[GoSU96]

The new administration, if they move forward w these plans, are smartly realizing the effectiveness of tying the Dome into the rest of the campus in a modern fashion. Such a progressive viewpoint of this amazing asset on campus. It's a huge win for the university and the students, who are the most important component to this equation.

Then it should be privately financed.

From a current stadium perspective you are doing period maintenance, - new roof, and making the viewing experience more comfortable for the population that already goes there.

Not sure why that is something the government should be involved with.

Unless part of the plan is to make it any less of a pain the ass to get to, where's the upside for anyone who isn't already a participant?

I'll give you too example, Billy Joel and, I think it was Hopkins, a big lax game on a Friday night a couple of years ago. Both were traffic disasters, and that's because you had the attendees all trying to land there at the same time. It illustrates the increased footprint of the build out in the area and the resulting traffic congestion in the area.

With football you have tailgating and planned satellite parking. With basketball, the back court. There are ways in which people can phase getting to the facility. With other events, you don't.

 

[Cuseregular]

the baseball stadium is only about one mile away from the inner harbor - The argument that it's in the wrong place only exists because Wolf St., N. Salina St. and Hiawatha Blvd are a virtual wasteland. My point is that since the city has invested so much into the Inner Harbor the county should kick in some dough to improve the area around the ballpark to tie it into the city.

I wouldn't mind the stadium being built by the inner harbor, it's a short walk away from my house, but I see the appeal to want to keep it on the hill. In all honesty I have never bought into the argument that there isn't any parking because I've never had a problem finding it. I think that it's a suburban myth.

yeah I get some of that, but the one thing my job provides is good insights into the mindsets of the casuals. Sure you can ultimately FIND parking, and get up there (like we all do like forever), but it is felt to be quite a HASSLE to do it instead of being an easy deal like virtually every other college stadium.

The downtown site would alleviate all that, provide a better game day atmoshere at least re tailgating and would likely attract all sorts of attention from the casuals who go to Destiny, Inner Harbor, etc. and who would also likely attend a game or two out of at least curiousity for something "new". That location and stadium would provide this opportunity and make it easier overall for not only people to simply get there and enjoy, but to expand the reach of who might be interested.

God know I'm with all on how the new Dome would be great in general, especially for all of us, but to the casual/many locals it would still be akin the what Bud calls the War Memorial (The Spruced up Dump), it would still be the spruced up Dome to the locals and not be as much as an attraction.

It's time to think really outside of the box as Go is writing and not let this once (or maybe twice) in a lifetime opportunity be missed to expand the reach of this communities sporting interests farther and wider to get more aboard.

 

[KellySyracuse]

To be fair, they had a location in/near Armory square for the baseball stadium and didn't take it. that is a mistake. Oh and if the baseball stadium wasn't separated from the destiny area by 81 it would have been fine.

True about the Armory location, then people would have bitched there was no parking

 

[HeaterCuse22]

True about the Armory location, then people would have bitched there was no parking

100% agree - that is a Syracusian trait

 

[GoSU96]

I want a new renovated dome and I want the state to kick in money. I am part of the community and I think it is good.

Would you not go to games if all they did was replace the roof?

Why is it any concern of the government to make your attending games more comfortable?

 

[Cusefan0307]

the baseball stadium is only about one mile away from the inner harbor - The argument that it's in the wrong place only exists because Wolf St., N. Salina St. and Hiawatha Blvd are a virtual wasteland. My point is that since the city has invested so much into the Inner Harbor the county should kick in some dough to improve the area around the ballpark to tie it into the city.

I wouldn't mind the stadium being built by the inner harbor, it's a short walk away from my house, but I see the appeal to want to keep it on the hill. In all honesty I have never bought into the argument that there isn't any parking because I've never had a problem finding it. I think that it's a suburban myth.

The parking garage I park in every week is half empty every football game. We get there early and setup our tailgate there because there is never anyone around us.
For basketball I show 15 minutes before the game and usually find a place close to campus where I can get there by tip. Most the time I'm able to park on the street. I never really get the people that moan about parking, but then I don't mind driving in the city like some people do.

 

[OttoMets]

Well they are building three new hotels in east Syracuse off Carrier Circle. Added 3 in North Syracuse Cicero and a handful downtown all in the last 3-5 years.

Sure, those add rooms to inch toward a larger total (10,000). But none of these would serve as an official NCAA venue. Tom covers this well:

I agree, the biggest problem isn't the number of hotel rooms but the number of big hotels in the area.

I believe you need 6 hotels in the 250 room or more range. One for each of the teams competing, one for the press and one for the coaches and their convention.

I think it would make sense to put the coaches and their convention at Turning Stone, which has 709 hotel rooms, including 285 at the Tower and 268 at their normal hotel. You could put the press there too. It is really nice, it is new, there is a lot to do with golf, tennis, the casino, etc. and the teams are not exposed to any gambling influence.

The Doubletree in East Syracuse has 250 rooms.

The proposed hotel at the Dome will have well over 250 rooms.

The Crowne Plaza has 276 rooms.

The Marriott (newly renovated Hotel Syracuse) will have 261 rooms.

And I bet by the time the proposed renovations for the Dome are completed, there will be a similar sized hotel built by Congel at DestinyUSA.

Things are vastly better than they were even 5 or 10 years ago and I think the situation is only going to improve as the downtown Syracuse area continues its remarkable turnaround...

Agree with most of this, but I don't think the NCAA would use Turning Stone (ignoring the gaming concern, it's too far away) and the Doubletree (formerly a Marriott, no?) is large enough but wouldn't be considered sufficiently upscale. They usually stick to Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt/Sheraton-Westin/Radisson types.

[As an aside, downtown improves with every passing day, but it's interesting how many local upscale hotel flags have been replaced by mid-market brands in the last generation. Some of that probably reflects changes in the industry, but it's probably also driven by some negative changes in the CNY economy that, ironically, people like me tend to gloss over.]

 

[Cuseregular]

True about the Armory location, then people would have bitched there was no parking

yeah and while they were doing that there would be double if not triple the attendance as so many casuals (like me when it comes to baseball) would end up going as part of a trip downtown to the restuarants, etc. Another missed opportunity that I hope they don't do again.

This one isn't such an obvious no brainer as there's merits to both and good support for the Dome, so it's a good deal either way overall in the big picture, however, it would still be another example of no vision shortsighted power brokers not seeing the big picture.

 

[GoSU96]

yeah I get some of that, but the one thing my job provides is good insights into the mindsets of the casuals. Sure you can ultimately FIND parking, and get up there (like we all do like forever), but it is felt to be quite a HASSLE to do it instead of being an easy deal like virtually every other college stadium.

The downtown site would alleviate all that, provide a better game day atmoshere at least re tailgating and would likely attract all sorts of attention from the casuals who go to Destiny, Inner Harbor, etc. and who would also likely attend a game or two out of at least curiousity for something "new". That location and stadium would provide this opportunity and make it easier overall for not only people to simply get there and enjoy, but to expand the reach of who might be interested.

God know I'm with all on how the new Dome would be great in general, especially for all of us, but to the casual/many locals it would still be akin the what Bud calls the War Memorial (The Spruced up Dump), it would still be the spruced up Dome to the locals and not be as much as an attraction.

It's time to think really outside of the box as Go is writing and not let this once (or maybe twice) in a lifetime opportunity be missed to expand the reach of this communities sporting interests farther and wider to get more aboard.

There maybe very practical reasons why this wouldn't work, such as there's no way to build down enough at that site to make it work. And if that's case, fine, because I wouldn't be for spending that kind of money on just another stadium. For a community this size for that investment, it has to really provide some synergies and economies of scale to provide the revenue to just service the debt, let alone provide a return on the investment.

If the State's "investment " is nothing more than tax breaks on the financing and paying for improving the infrastructure for access to the Dome, then that's fine. But if the financing plans involves NYS sinking hardcash to help pay for a new roof and kicking out the walls for $200M on up, that's ridiculous.

 

[GoSU96]

Sure, those add rooms to inch toward a larger total (10,000). But none of these would serve as an official NCAA venue. Tom covers this well:



Agree with most of this, but I don't think the NCAA would use Turning Stone (ignoring the gaming concern, it's too far away) and the Doubletree (formerly a Marriott, no?) is large enough but wouldn't be considered sufficiently upscale. They usually stick to Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt/Sheraton-Westin/Radisson types.

[As an aside, downtown improves with every passing day, but it's interesting how many local upscale hotel flags have been replaced by mid-market brands in the last generation. Some of that probably reflects changes in the industry, but it's probably also driven by some negative changes in the CNY economy that, ironically, people like me tend to gloss over.]

USG per diem for Syracuse, $100 lodging, $60 meals.

A community filled with Holiday, Fairfield, and Hampton Inns', that WILL have one Marriott and the Courtyard is considered upscale, it's just not going to happen. It's not being negative, it's reality.

 

[OttoMets]

yeah and while they were doing that there would be double if not triple the attendance as so many casuals (like me when it comes to baseball) would end up going as part of a trip downtown to the restuarants, etc. Another missed opportunity that I hope they don't do again.

This one isn't such an obvious no brainer as there's merits to both and good support for the Dome, so it's a good deal either way overall in the big picture, however, it would still be another example of no vision shortsighted power brokers not seeing the big picture.

I do think Syverud and a number of developers envision a very different landscape between Irving and Townsend Street (now mainly parking lots and institutional buildings) in ten years, when this project will be completed.

The current demarcation between West Campus, Marshall Street, and downtown will become blurred and we're going to see a lot more in the way of development to support the stadium renovation. The idea is that the stadium and associated development will create a synergy that builds on itself - more hotels, bars, restaurants, and retail.

Agree that access falls somewhere between a concern or a perceived concern, and mass transit will be part of the solution.

I also haven't heard anything to suggest that public money will directly fund a Dome reconstruction.

We'll see. Exciting times.

 

[Crusty]

There maybe very practical reasons why this wouldn't work, such as there's no way to build down enough at that site to make it work. And if that's case, fine, because I wouldn't be for spending that kind of money on just another stadium. For a community this size for that investment, it has to really provide some synergies and economies of scale to provide the revenue to just service the debt, let alone provide a return on the investment.

If the State's "investment " is nothing more than tax breaks on the financing and paying for improving the infrastructure for access to the Dome, then that's fine. But if the financing plans involves NYS sinking hardcash to help pay for a new roof and kicking out the walls for $200M on up, that's ridiculous.

How does that argument make sense. It is OK for the state to spend money on the infrastructure for access to the dome but not for the dome itself. Your argument rests on philosophical grounds and some pretty fine hair splitting.

Suppose the dome is owned and run by a state agency or authority? Would that be OK?

 

[cuseinchina]

Then it should be privately financed.

From a current stadium perspective you are doing period maintenance, - new roof, and making the viewing experience more comfortable for the population that already goes there.

Not sure why that is something the government should be involved with.

Unless part of the plan is to make it any less of a pain the ass to get to, where's the upside for anyone who isn't already a participant?

I'll give you too example, Billy Joel and, I think it was Hopkins, a big lax game on a Friday night a couple of years ago. Both were traffic disasters, and that's because you had the attendees all trying to land there at the same time. It illustrates the increased footprint of the build out in the area and the resulting traffic congestion in the area.

With football you have tailgating and planned satellite parking. With basketball, the back court. There are ways in which people can phase getting to the facility. With other events, you don't.

This project strengthens the long term health of a non profit organization which benefits the syracuse area in countless ways. The school spends $1b every year much of which flows directly into the local economy, it serves as a cultural and knowledge hub which benefits anyone who cares enough to come to campus to soak up all that is available, it's existence allows many area business owners to thrive and allows for the local development of 'new economy' businesses that require an educated work force, and it brings smart motivated people to the area who benefit the local population in myriad ways. There is nothing that syracuse has going for it that is ,ore important than their anchor university. Supporting that isn't a waste, it's a necessity.

If you don't see how the unique culture of syracuse university is continued and enhanced by this and how a move to the mall would take away from that, then I feel like you don't really understand what that place is about to the students who go there and the alumni who support the school and the athletic programs. Intangibles like brand value are worth much more than the direct economic return on an investment in further developing them. Buffett invests by looking at brand value and it's sustainability over time - this is a similar scenario. SU sports benefit the university and the university benefits the city - locals get to be a part of that but make no mistake that the sports teams are a resource of the university first and the community second, even though local fan support is crucial.

 

[dollarbill44]

In all honesty I have never bought into the argument that there isn't any parking because I've never had a problem finding it. I think that it's a suburban myth.

I agree with this. I view it as similar to people complaining about rush hour traffic in Syracuse. Yeah, it's worse than it is the rest of the time, but compared to just about everywhere else, it doesn't exist. I've been to many different stadia and arenas. In my experience, traffic and parking for SU games is pretty average. Some places are better, some are worse (much worse).

A recent example, I was at the Giants-Cowboys game this last Sunday. My friend, who took me to the game, has a box that he is seriously considering giving up, because of the mess that is parking and traffic at MetLife. He dreads having to go through it for every game. And we were parked in the F lot, which is adjacent to the stadium. It took 20 minutes to go from the car to the box. We didn't get home until 9:45 (2 hours after the game ended) and we live a half hour from the stadium.

 

[Cuseregular]

The parking garage I park in every week is half empty every football game. We get there early and setup our tailgate there because there is never anyone around us.
For basketball I show 15 minutes before the game and usually find a place close to campus where I can get there by tip. Most the time I'm able to park on the street. I never really get the people that moan about parking, but then I don't mind driving in the city like some people do.

that works for us because we're used to it. And a parking garage vs. an open air large set of lots, well there's really no comparision for tailgating, atmosphere, etc. And, again, the fact you have to look for parking is what the problem is for so many. YES we can all find it and have for 35 years, just saying it would be real nice for this not to be an issue or concern. Crazy that this could actually happen.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Agree that access falls somewhere between a concern or a perceived concern, and mass transit will be part of the solution. We'll see. Exciting times.

Would they ever consider shuttles for the outermost destiny parking lots as dedicated tailgating space? Charge $10 per car with the only requirement that they present game day tickets.

If they don't put the stadium at the inner harbor, I don't see how those lots next to Bear St will ever get used.

 

[Crusty]

USG per diem for Syracuse, $100 lodging, $60 meals.

A community filled with Holiday, Fairfield, and Hampton Inns', that WILL have one Marriott and the Courtyard is considered upscale, it's just not going to happen. It's not being negative, it's reality.

I keep waiting for your positive post.

 

[FrancoPizza]

And I bet by the time the proposed renovations for the Dome are completed, there will be a similar sized hotel built by Congel at DestinyUSA.

Have you heard something in this regard? Last I knew they abandoned negotiations with the county. Reasons unknown.