FBI arrests Assistant Basketball Coaches in Corruption Scheme

[reedny]

Of course, which is why there needs to be larger penalties. But say Louisville is a mass murderer doesn't mean us being a one time rapist excuses us or allows us to point fingers.

Not sure about the analogy there ... (rapist). I mean, it's the YMCA, some footnotes and kids smoking pot in college (SU's rule only). I'm thinking it's more like LV is mass murder and we're misdemeanor shoplifting. But I get your overall point (that we shouldn't be throwing stones).

 

[Fly Rodder]

Gonna be real tough to get way with that, with this in effect: "NCAA Division I Bylaw 11.1.1.1 states that a head coach is presumed to be responsible for the actions of all staff members who report, directly or indirectly, to the head coach." {I imagine that the bolding is a link in the original document. I didn't put it there.}

If, IF, they're found to have not encouraged an atmosphere of compliance. All a head coach has to do is demonstrate that their firewall is in place and they have plausible deniability. The same they've been doing for generations. That they're shocked that gambling is occurring in Rick's Cafe American.

UA is already getting behind Miller. And Miami is signaling the same.

As for it being serious, meh, the NCAA isn't going to change. Some assistants will get burned but that'll be it. ESPNs stories are all about UK and Duke's amazing recruiting classes.

 

[two3zone]

Not sure about the analogy there ... (rapist). I mean, it's the YMCA, some footnotes and kids smoking pot in college (SU's rule only). I'm thinking it's more like LV is mass murder and we're misdemeanor shoplifting. But I get your overall point (that we shouldn't be throwing stones).

At the end of the day our players were paid, there was academic fraud and drug use by our players.

I get that none of these violations were extreme but all of these things happened. Think it's more than misdemeanor shoplifting but agree that our transgressions are much less than what's been thrown out there.

 

[CuseLegacy]

 

[reedny]

At the end of the day our players were paid, there was academic fraud and drug use by our players.

I get that none of these violations were extreme but all of these things happened. Think it's more than misdemeanor shoplifting but agree that our transgressions are much less than what's been thrown out there.

The players were "paid" by a YMCA director for reffing games. The total amount was a few thousand bucks ($100 per game). In Fab's case, "academic fraud" was never found by the University's judicial system -- it was assumed by the COI b/e footnotes were added to his paper by an assistant (Fab had already passed and was trying to raise his grade -- he spoke Portuguese). And the marijuana situation .. well that speaks for itself. It wasn't even an NCAA rule.

Compare that to UNC's massive systemic fraud under which whole majors were given away to athletes with little or no work .. 1,500 athletes over an 18 year period. At LV -- $150,000 cash. Hookers. Pitino skimming the Addidas money. I mean .. if those schools committed mass murder, you need to get below the felony level to describe the pitiful little violations SU was hauled up on. I should have compared SU's conduct to speeding, actually. I'm not minimizing anything ... violations were wrong and we want our program to be clean. But comparatively speaking ... we should have been in traffic court compared to these other schools.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The NCAA tried to find more than they did here. They didn't. That's why they were here for 8 years.

On UNC they didn't even want to take the case and some of these other schools they look the other way.

If that doesn't say they pick and choose who they go after I don't know what does.

 

[CusefanATL]

The players were "paid" by a YMCA director for reffing games. The total amount was a few thousand bucks ($100 per game). In Fab's case, "academic fraud" was never found by the University's judicial system -- it was assumed by the COI b/e footnotes were added to his paper by an assistant (Fab had already passed and was trying to raise his grade -- he spoke Portuguese). And the marijuana situation .. well that speaks for itself. It wasn't even an NCAA rule.

Compare that to UNC's massive systemic fraud under which whole majors were given away to athletes with little or no work .. 1,500 athletes over an 18 year period. At LV -- $150,000 cash. Hookers. Pitino skimming the Addidas money. I mean .. if those schools committed mass murder, you need to get below the felony level to describe the pitiful little violations SU was hauled up on. I should have compared SU's conduct to speeding, actually. I'm not minimizing anything ... violations were wrong and we want our program to be clean. But comparatively speaking ... we should have been in traffic court compared to these other schools.

Can the 1st paragraph of the post please be pinned to the home page of the website please?

Everyone should stand (or kneel, i dont care) and say it aloud before being allowed to post here.

 

[Newhouser]

If, IF, they're found to have not encouraged an atmosphere of compliance. All a head coach has to do is demonstrate that their firewall is in place and they have plausible deniability. The same they've been doing for generations. That they're shocked that gambling is occurring in Rick's Cafe American.

UA is already getting behind Miller. And Miami is signaling the same.

As for it being serious, meh, the NCAA isn't going to change. Some assistants will get burned but that'll be it. ESPNs stories are all about UK and Duke's amazing recruiting classes.

and the legal community always overplays their press conferences for big splash and then the actual meat of the cases ends up being less substantial than originally stated. I agree - end of the day there will be memories of the first presser, initial posturing and hand wringing with some heads rolling for show, and business as usual within a year.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Don't think some people understand that there's no leaks during an FBI investigation. They work on their own time frame and by their rules.

 

[Consigliere]

The players were "paid" by a YMCA director for reffing games. The total amount was a few thousand bucks ($100 per game). In Fab's case, "academic fraud" was never found by the University's judicial system -- it was assumed by the COI b/e footnotes were added to his paper by an assistant (Fab had already passed and was trying to raise his grade -- he spoke Portuguese). And the marijuana situation .. well that speaks for itself. It wasn't even an NCAA rule.

Compare that to UNC's massive systemic fraud under which whole majors were given away to athletes with little or no work .. 1,500 athletes over an 18 year period. At LV -- $150,000 cash. Hookers. Pitino skimming the Addidas money. I mean .. if those schools committed mass murder, you need to get below the felony level to describe the pitiful little violations SU was hauled up on. I should have compared SU's conduct to speeding, actually. I'm not minimizing anything ... violations were wrong and we want our program to be clean. But comparatively speaking ... we should have been in traffic court compared to these other schools.

(Sarcasm Alert) Reed, you must be missing something in detailing the Syracuse transgressions. This doesn't sound like a major institutional control scenario that would lead to such restrictive penalties. Surely there is much more involved!

 

[Fly Rodder]

(Sarcasm Alert) Reed, you must be missing something in detailing the Syracuse transgressions.

And all Al Capone ever did was tax evasion.

The behavior that schools (and people) get punished for is often what the investigators can prove, not what they did. Syracuse got hammered for what the NCAA could prove, but my guess is that there was a lot more going on that they couldn't prove. UNC's biggest issue is that they should have lost accreditation, had a bunch of players found ineligible, lose a bunch of wins, etc. But proving that the AD conspired to shuttle athletes through these sham classes is a lot harder than posting about it on a message board.

 

[Cusefan0307]

And all Al Capone ever did was tax evasion.

The behavior that schools (and people) get punished for is often what the investigators can prove, not what they did. Syracuse got hammered for what the NCAA could prove, but my guess is that there was a lot more going on that they couldn't prove. UNC's biggest issue is that they should have lost accreditation, had a bunch of players found ineligible, lose a bunch of wins, etc. But proving that the AD conspired to shuttle athletes through these sham classes is a lot harder than posting about it on a message board.

The NCAA doesn’t need to prove anything.

They got us for missing YMCA money from an advisor that they couldn’t prove went anywhere.

They couldn’t prove that someone helped Fab with his paper.

You’re confusing the real court of law with NCAA rules. It’s an entirely different level of proof.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The NCAA doesn’t need to prove anything.

Says who? They can't penalize a school and levy financial penalties without some standard of proof. That's silly. You're better than this. PSU sued the NCAA and ended up with a settlement that removed nearly all of the penalties. They settled because they knew that they would get destroyed in court.

They couldn’t prove that someone helped Fab with his paper.

Starting at 11:19 a.m. the paper, which was based heavily on Melo's personal statement to the NCAA that had been saved on Kissel's computer, was revised seven times in 27 hours. Each of the revisions was made by either Kissel or [Belanger].

The pair exchanged seven e-mails and three phone calls during that time.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Says who? They can't penalize a school and levy financial penalties without some standard of proof. That's silly. You're better than this. PSU sued the NCAA and ended up with a settlement that removed nearly all of the penalties. They settled because they knew that they would get destroyed in court.

Again the University Academic oversight committee found no issues here. Was it ethically wrong? Yes. Has this happened with students outside of athletes. You're incredibly naïve if you believe tutors don't do things for regular students struggling in certain classes.

The YMCA money missing, but not found was in the flipping NCAA report. IT WAS NOT PROVED, but yeah I'm better than this. Go back and read the report. This is not new news.

If this is law enforcement they need to prove it!!!!!

The Penn State case has zero in common with the Syracuse case. ZERO.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I'm not sure what your point is. Whatever it is, it must rest on your narrow definition of "proof."

The NCAA can't just hand out six, seven, and eight figure fines and other assorted penalties based on suspicion and innuendo. They have to show something. I mean, hell, it's right there in their FAQ:

Why does it seem to take so long for the enforcement process to work?
It’s an important process that must be done correctly to ensure it is fair. It takes time to conduct interviews, collect supporting documentation, research leads and compile the actual report. If there are multiple violations, each violation must be thoroughly investigated. The uncovering of additional information can lead to more possible infractions that must be investigated. The involved schools may request additional time to respond to allegations. In the end, a standard of proof must be met before alleging a rules violation. There can be no rush to judgment.

It stands to reason that not all found or suspected violations met a standard of proof and didn't make the final report. I don't think everything at Syracuse that pushed and/or broke rules made it into the report and I think that other schools (Alabama, UK, KU, Duke, etc) are better at concealing their transgressions than Syracuse was.

You're incredibly naïve if you believe tutors don't do things for regular students struggling in certain classes.

I didn't write anything of the sort. And if you think that SU runs a squeaky clean D1 program and does nothing wrong, then you're incredibly naive.

Ultimately, there are two things going on here and they are separate issues. The FBI investigation is one and then there will be the pending NCAA investigations. I think the FBI investigations will be limited in scope and focus on criminal wrongdoing with airtight evidence. The NCAA ones will be wider ranging, but good head coaches have good firewalls that insulate the seedier activities from the school. I don't think enough will be found to make much of a difference. These people know how their bread is buttered.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm not sure what your point is. Whatever it is, it must rest on your narrow definition of "proof."

The NCAA can't just hand out six, seven, and eight figure fines and other assorted penalties based on suspicion and innuendo. They have to show something. I mean, hell, it's right there in their FAQ:

It stands to reason that not all found or suspected violations met a standard of proof and didn't make the final report. I don't think everything at Syracuse that pushed and/or broke rules made it into the report and I think that other schools (Alabama, UK, KU, Duke, etc) are better at concealing their transgressions than Syracuse was.

I didn't write anything of the sort. And if you think that SU runs a squeaky clean D1 program and does nothing wrong, then you're incredibly naive.

Ultimately, there are two things going on here and they are separate issues. The FBI investigation is one and then there will be the pending NCAA investigations. I think the FBI investigations will be limited in scope and focus on criminal wrongdoing with airtight evidence. The NCAA ones will be wider ranging, but good head coaches have good firewalls that insulate the seedier activities from the school. I don't think enough will be found to make much of a difference. These people know how their bread is buttered.

Your narrative is tired and wrong. My point is the NCAA picks and chooses who and what they prosecute.

I never said SU was squeaky clean. Stop putting words in my posts. Compared to some other programs do what was found here is minute.

They didn’t want to even go after UNC until the media forced their hand.

The NCAA does not have to prove you broke rules like the court of law. We were penalized because the YMCA was missing money and we had players work/volunteer there(Impermissable benefits). They never found evidence players received money(burden of proof) yet we were still penalized for it and it was mentioned the COI report.

 

[reedny]

And all Al Capone ever did was tax evasion.

The behavior that schools (and people) get punished for is often what the investigators can prove, not what they did. Syracuse got hammered for what the NCAA could prove, but my guess is that there was a lot more going on that they couldn't prove. UNC's biggest issue is that they should have lost accreditation, had a bunch of players found ineligible, lose a bunch of wins, etc. But proving that the AD conspired to shuttle athletes through these sham classes is a lot harder than posting about it on a message board.

Nah. They were into us for 8 years, Fly. They scooped up whatever muck and garbage they could find. And Yahoo sent two goons to dredge up dirt too ... b/c that's what they do (sell scandal). So not sure about you, but I'm giving us the benefit of the doubt. They would have charged JB with spitting on the sidewalk if they thought they could increase our penalties. It was an unnecessarily vicious attack .. and to top it off .. the self-righteous boob who led the COI is commissioner of the SEC!! What a beautiful world.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Circa 2005 any student could go to the writing center for any class and tutors would proofread their paper and basically tell you what to fix.

The only mistake they made with Fab is he went to the AD department instead of the writing center. If Fab went to the writing center he wouldn't have been suspended and it wouldn't have been an "impermissible benefit".

 

[Fly Rodder]

The NCAA does not have to prove you broke rules like the court of law

I never wrote it was a "legal" burden of proof, but they do have to meet a standard of proof in order to allege bylaw violations and levy penalties.

We were penalized because the YMCA was missing money and we had players work/volunteer there(Impermissable benefits)

They penalized Syracuse for what they could prove: impermissible benefits.

In total, based on the information self-reported by the institution, the representative provided the five student-athletes with a total of 21 checks. The payments ranged from $100 to $3,100 and totaled $8,335. The representative paid student-athletes out of the AAU-DCCT bank account.

The representative provided impermissible payments to five student-athletes when he used the AAU-DCCT account to pay them over $8,000.
Over the course of approximately a 14-month period, the representative provided impermissible payments to five of the institution's student-athletes totaling $8,335. These benefits violated NCAA Bylaw 16.

Looks like they had proof to me.

There's a reason a lot of violations look rinky dink. It's because that's all they can show. Do people really think that all Bruce Pearl did to deserve a show-cause was have Aaron Craft over to his house for a BBQ?

 

[Cusefan0307]

I never wrote it was a "legal" burden of proof, but they do have to meet a standard of proof in order to allege bylaw violations and levy penalties.

They penalized Syracuse for what they could prove: impermissible benefits.

Looks like they had proof to me.

There's a reason a lot of violations look rinky dink. It's because that's all they can show. Do people really think that all Bruce Pearl did to deserve a show-cause was have Aaron Craft over to his house for a BBQ?

You left out the part where Cornish took 350,000 dollars and it was mentioned in the COI Report, but they couldn't find where it went. You're leaving how half of the story.

You also fail to mention that Pearl got in hot water because he denied NCAA transgressions and also told recruits not to tell the NCAA. So of course it was more than a BBQ.

 

[Fly Rodder]

You left out the part where Cornish took 350,000 dollars and it was mentioned in the COI Report, but they couldn't find where it went. You're leaving how half of the story.

Show me in the report where it says Syracuse was penalized because of that specifically. I'll wait.

 

[GooseMutt]

At the end of the day our players were paid, there was academic fraud and drug use by our players.

I get that none of these violations were extreme but all of these things happened. Think it's more than misdemeanor shoplifting but agree that our transgressions are much less than what's been thrown out there.

No excuse but the 3 things you highlighted are s common denominator amongst many many D1 teams in my opinion

 

[Cusefan0307]

Show me in the report where it says Syracuse was penalized because of that specifically. I'll wait.

This is straight from page ten. He also paid football players which you fail to mention for whatever reason:

Both the identity of the account and the nature of the transactions would connect back to the institution's student-athletes and its men's basketball program. The account served as a source of payments provided to student-athletes, men's basketball staff members and registration payments for local youth to attend coaching staff members' basketball camps. From May 2004 to July 2005, the representative used the AAU-DCCT account to write checks to student-athletes, compensate athletics staff members for their assistance or appearance at YMCA events and to supplement the income of a men's basketball staff member by paying his rent for a month. During this period, the representative deposited more than $300,000 into that account. At times, the activity surrounding the account was inexplicable and unpredictable. For example, activity surrounding the account included same day deposits and withdrawals for the same amount. Other transactions did not relate to any particular AAU, YMCA or other sporting event.


11.2.2 Athletically Related Income. Contractual agreements, including letters of appointment, between a full-time or part-time athletics department staff member (excluding secretarial or clerical personnel) and an institution shall include the stipulation that the staff member is required to provide a written detailed account annually to the chief executive officer for all athletically related income and benefits from sources outside the institution. In addition, the approval of all athletically related income and benefits shall be consistent with the institution's policy related to outside income and benefits applicable to all full-time or part-time employees. Sources of such income shall include, but are not limited to, the following: 11.3.2.2 Supplemental Pay. An outside source is prohibited from paying or regularly supplementing an athletics department staff member's annual salary and from arranging to supplement that salary for an unspecified achievement. This includes the donation of cash from outside sources to the institution earmarked for the staff member's salary or supplemental income. It would be permissible for an outside source to donate funds to the institution to be used as determined by the institution, and it would be permissible for the institution, at its sole discretion, to use such funds to pay or supplement a staff member's salary. 12.5.1.1 Institutional, Charitable, Educational or Nonprofit Promotions. A member institution or recognized entity thereof (e.g., fraternity, sorority or student government organization), a member conference or a non institutional charitable, educational or nonprofit agency may use a student-athlete's name, picture or appearance to support its charitable or educational activities or to support activities considered incidental to the student-athlete's participation in intercollegiate athletics, provided the following conditions are met: (a) The student-athlete receives written approval to participate from the director of athletics (or his or her designee who may not be a coaching staff member), subject to the limitations on partic

 

[HOFCeluck]

Kansas linked to FBI investigation into college hoops corruption

 

[two3zone]

The players were "paid" by a YMCA director for reffing games. The total amount was a few thousand bucks ($100 per game). In Fab's case, "academic fraud" was never found by the University's judicial system -- it was assumed by the COI b/e footnotes were added to his paper by an assistant (Fab had already passed and was trying to raise his grade -- he spoke Portuguese). And the marijuana situation .. well that speaks for itself. It wasn't even an NCAA rule.

Compare that to UNC's massive systemic fraud under which whole majors were given away to athletes with little or no work .. 1,500 athletes over an 18 year period. At LV -- $150,000 cash. Hookers. Pitino skimming the Addidas money. I mean .. if those schools committed mass murder, you need to get below the felony level to describe the pitiful little violations SU was hauled up on. I should have compared SU's conduct to speeding, actually. I'm not minimizing anything ... violations were wrong and we want our program to be clean. But comparatively speaking ... we should have been in traffic court compared to these other schools.

If our issues are so minuscule then why did they even happen? Every player should have it cemented in their head that they don't take anything from anybody, seems pretty simple. Academic fraud did happen, it's like when the police investigate themselves and find "nothing wrong". The drug testing, that's ignorant, don't make the rule then. You can't use "we'll make sure your kids don't use drugs or they wont play" as a selling point here then ignore it when it happens.

I hope the other schools get nailed to the wall, but I'm not focused on them, I'm focused on our program and want it to rise above the rest, we can't do that if we're going to make stupid mistakes, which we unfortunately did. All of this was avoidable, that's what we should be upset about, not what other schools are doing.