Few Thoughts and theories on recent stuff

[DilemaCuse]

Well at least that’s an answer, pay the money (and accept the blowback from his supporters). I would note that SU has not paid the money to exit Dino, whose near term performance is worse.

Glad we agree on the first part however comparing JB to Dino is not even in the same atmosphere
Jim has taken a beautiful mansion and let it rot
Dino had to tear down and rebuild a nearly condemned house due to scott schafer while not having the same resources that Jim has

 

[Cusefan0307]

Ok, since we're going with that angle and not the 'rip the bandaid off now so we can be good in a few years angle,' who comes in with no players and wins 25 games? That guy is for sale?

If JB retired this off-season and we hired Sean Miller we would finish no worse than 4th in the conference next year.

And Sean Miller would be willing to leave Xavier to come to a school that gets 25000 fans and plays Duke and UNC every year.

 

[Brooky03]

You're answering your own question. Nobody is winning 25 games next year. Not Jim, not Red, not GMAC, not an outside hire. So why keep with the status quo and delay the inevitable? Again, I go back to my original point that it NEVER should have gotten to this. Never should have happened.

Hindsight is 20/20. Arguing that it shouldn't have gotten to this point doesn't mean or do anything.

To the question of why wait, JB built a program at a school that had no business being good at basketball. That earns a lot of loyalty and is worthy of respect. I know, I know; that loyalty and respect has a limit and runs out. Yada, yada, yada. For you, it ran out about 4 years ago probably. Excellent. Since we don't have a time machine, what does the extra year of him getting his act together and going out semi-on-his-terms do to harm the program?

 

[DanielA]

I'll never understand points like your 2nd one. This has been an irrelevant program for close to a decade now. What exactly do you think gets worse? We can continue to see this team finish in the bottom half of the conference? Fail to make the postseason? Fail to improve recruiting? What gets worse and why?

Since 2010 we have been to 2 final fours so we are so irrelevant.

 

[Brooky03]

The expectation wouldnt be to win 25 in year 1. It is to set the foundation for the future.

As to who comes in? A guy looking for a step in pay and prestige, a guy who isnt happy with his current situation. A guy intrigued by taking the program that is #6 in all time wins. Guys change jobs all the time.
Different sport but why did Lincoln Riley leave a great situation at OK for USC or Brian Kelly at ND for LSU? They got sold on an idea.

This is the 'be good in a few years' argument that makes more sense than the 'make him leave because... reasons' argument. I'm okay with this argument. I just recognize it as an argument that we want to be good in 2025 instead of 2026.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Hindsight is 20/20. Arguing that it shouldn't have gotten to this point doesn't mean or do anything.

To the question of why wait, JB built a program at a school that had no business being good at basketball. That earns a lot of loyalty and is worthy of respect. I know, I know; that loyalty and respect has a limit and runs out. Yada, yada, yada. For you, it ran out about 4 years ago probably. Excellent. Since we don't have a time machine, what does the extra year of him getting his act together and going out semi-on-his-terms do to harm the program?

No business being good at basketball.

We are 5th all time in wins.

We went to the FF two years before he took over.

We’ve had a winning record every decade outside of the 60’s.

JB helped, but his predecessor had us on track before he even became coach.

C’mon.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Hindsight is 20/20. Arguing that it shouldn't have gotten to this point doesn't mean or do anything.

To the question of why wait, JB built a program at a school that had no business being good at basketball. That earns a lot of loyalty and is worthy of respect. I know, I know; that loyalty and respect has a limit and runs out. Yada, yada, yada. For you, it ran out about 4 years ago probably. Excellent. Since we don't have a time machine, what does the extra year of him getting his act together and going out semi-on-his-terms do to harm the program?

Well what good does it do to the program?

Isnt the goal to try to win the game and have the program be healthy.

If your a distraction to your program because everyone wonders when you will finally bow out, how are you helping your program?

And the answer is your not, your just being selfish at that point.

 

[DanielA]

Well what good does it do to the program?

Isnt the goal to try to win the game and have the program be healthy.

If your a distraction to your program because everyone wonders when you will finally bow out, how are you helping your program?

And the answer is your not, your just being selfish at that point.

Who is he distracting everybody who needs to know when he is leaving knows he just isn’t going to tell public

 

[Willy75]

You would negotiate a 5-10 million dollar buyout for a 78 year old, who has been with the same program 47 years, that has struggled for the better part of a decade? Do you think he's a hot commodity within the coaching rank

Fair enough. I don’t see what leverage JB had to make that sort of contract demand

Per Yahoo Finance (3/21) the fourth most successful college basketball program in America in terms of revenue. And I don’t know his “demands”, just pointing out the likely real world ramifications of some of the rants here.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Who is he distracting everybody who needs to know when he is leaving knows he just isn’t going to tell public

Well its easy for opposing coaches to use as negative recruiting tool

Its the same thing when the coach is on the proverbial hot seat

 

[DilemaCuse]

Who is he distracting everybody who needs to know when he is leaving knows he just isn’t going to tell public

Well he is distracting the AD and President this week with his headlines in the news that then warranted their office plenty of calls and emails which lead to multiple retractions.

The question, uncertainty, decline in performance, its all a dark cloud over the program, a malaise even.

 

[DanielA]

Well its easy for opposing coaches to use as negative recruiting tool

Its the same thing when the coach is on the proverbial hot seat

Yeah that’s true

 

[Manleymen]

Do you have a specific source/link other than just “Yahoo Finance?” I would like to drill down and see the real world evidence.

 

[Willy75]

Glad we agree on the first part however comparing JB to Dino is not even in the same atmosphere
Jim has taken a beautiful mansion and let it rot
Dino had to tear down and rebuild a nearly condemned house due to scott schafer while not having the same resources that Jim has

The football side does not agree with your assessment of Dino’s rebuild in year 8.

 

[MDCuse]

This is the 'be good in a few years' argument that makes more sense than the 'make him leave because... reasons' argument. I'm okay with this argument. I just recognize it as an argument that we want to be good in 2025 instead of 2026.

Are you saying there aren't valid reasons for him to move on??

 

[Orangezoo]

Boeheim could get the team back to the Tournament next year. That wouldn't be weird or a Herculean task.

But the count of college basketball coaches in history who have come in on year one taking over an embattled program, and had a great year is what? 2?

You're argument is that you want to get the ball rolling so we can get back to being good in 2025 instead of 2026.

Unless he switches defenses more the zone will hold back the team next year. All the advanced analytics in addition to the aggregate and segmented breakdown of the 3pt shot show this. So returning to the tourney is already at a handicap with JB based on defense. He said himself we would play more mtm this year. It was here and gone in a couple games.

Not sure how many times we have to reiterate that a new coach needs time. If someone expects a 2 year 180 degree turnaround then they are as pollyannish as it gets. Most everyone understands it takes time.

As for 2025 vs 2026 you are overlaying your own words to try and explain others arguments. It may be 2030.. or 2027 or... we don't know. Getting the ball rolling is about moving forward for the program as it takes time. It will be about managing roster change and improvements while installing a new system. It's a large undertaking for any coach. It will also be about establishing credibility with those who stay and recruits.

How long that it takes depends on making the right hire and then figuring out if that is indeed the right hire... the IU example you had made rings loud here. Who is to say we don't have our own Mike Davis followed by Sampson and then Crean etc.. ( obviously examples not actual names we would look at). 1 year in an evolving landscape can have a range of trajectories... but the one constant is that moving forward sooner has advantages. 1 more year of JB in the zone is kicking the can down the road. It also could lead to another year and so on as well. We don't know if he will still continue to want to coach after that.

Whatever ends up happening I believe you are missing some things when drafting your argument.

We are in JoePa territory here where the sentiment of "but he can still do it give it another year" can be repeated over and over again.

We naturally will have 30 more new threads to re litigate this before seasons end I'm sure. Good thing we are all building up our stamina.

 

[tbonezone]

how about we'll judge dino after 47 years at one program.

 

[Vorony]

Per Yahoo Finance (3/21) the fourth most successful college basketball program in America in terms of revenue. And I don’t know his “demands”, just pointing out the likely real world ramifications of some of the rants here.

But it’s not a likely real world ramification. It’s a fantasy that you’re trying to throw at the wall and make stick. It would be total gross incompetence and business malpractice to set up a contract buyout like that for a 78 year old coach who hasn’t jumped ship in 47 years. It’s not realistic.

 

[Brooky03]

Are you saying there aren't valid reasons for him to move on??

No.

Here are things every single person on this board agrees on:

- The last 9 years have not been good
- The last 4 years have been really not good. Bad, even.
- Syracuse isn’t the program we want it to be, expect it to be, knew it to be.
- The responsibility for the downturn is shared but lies primarily with the coach.


I understand. You wanted his last year to be multiple years ago. So every season since then has been aggravating and one season too many. That’s why one more season isn’t just one more season to you. When you look back on the years you feel like he shouldn’t have been here, another year is a slap in the face.

I get it. I just don’t agree that one more year of him (probably) being on good behavior and maybe doing something good with the team isn’t preferable to an ugly (or uglier) departure that leaves nobody looking good. There’s no reason for the admin to flex its muscle on a coaching career on its death bed. Make an agreement for him to ride off into the sunset after next season and call it a day. Do your due diligence in that time to find the right guy to come in. Who knows, maybe it’ll be somebody they can tell recruits about so recruiting can still happen during the ‘farewell tour’. I’d prefer that to an abrupt change and scramble.

The ‘get him out yesterday’ sentiment sounds vindictive and almost like people want to punish him for being a jerk and not winning enough games.

 

[djcon57]

Per Yahoo Finance (3/21) the fourth most successful college basketball program in America in terms of revenue. And I don’t know his “demands”, just pointing out the likely real world ramifications of some of the rants here.

Respect your opinion, I just don't believe its likely like you suggest.

And I stand that if it is in place, Wildhack has bigger issues

 

[hoopsupstate]

If JB retired this off-season and we hired Sean Miller we would finish no worse than 4th in the conference next year.

And Sean Miller would be willing to leave Xavier to come to a school that gets 25000 fans and plays Duke and UNC every year.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Sean Miller is coaching at Ohio State next year.

 

[Willy75]

So you think SU can fire the guy who put the banners in the Dome, who runs a very, very financially successful program, w/o cause, and pay him nothing. His lawyers negotiated that kind of contract. Ok.
And btw I doubt his contract was negotiated this year, more likely when two FF runs were a recent memory.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Sean Miller is coaching at Ohio State next year.

Holtmann isn’t going to get fired off one bad season. He’s made the tourney every year.

 

[Cusefan0307]

So you think SU can fire the guy who put the banners in the Dome, who runs a very, very financially successful program, w/o cause, and pay him nothing. Ok.

Yes.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Holtmann isn’t going to get fired off one bad season. He’s made the tourney every year.

He’s getting hammered in Columbus.