FSU vs The ACC

[SURules]

No, there was no question I responded to, thus no question to be answered. I made a general comment, nothing more. Please do not read more or less into my comments.

I am not sure how you jump from a vetted team to an actionable invite, but don't let facts get in the way of a straw argument.

You are free to view the ACC move as a lifeline, I don't. There was no ACCN on the table at that time, only membership in the ACC. SU could have chosen to let the B1G option play out. Maybe it had but the B1G's knee jerk reaction to rush to take Rutgers indicates otherwise. Regardless, SU could have stayed in the Big East.

Maybe you don't like those choices, but they remain choices, nonetheless. To me, a lifeline is the not a choice between options of varying degrees but rather the option of life (continue football) or death (drop football). Many on here would be happy to drop to FCS or D2 rather than be sucked into the spending wars of modern CFB. They obviously don't see the ACC invite as a lifeline.

As to your BC comment, there is no response. BC was already a member of the ACC when SU joined. I don't recall the ACC's actual motivation for inviting BC. Perhaps to give the ACC the 12th team to hold a Championship game? I am too lazy this morning to research the matter as it has no bearing on my original comment.

No, there was no question I responded to, thus no question to be answered. I made a general comment, nothing more. Please do not read more or less into my comments.

I am not sure how you jump from a vetted team to an actionable invite, but don't let facts get in the way of a straw argument.

You are free to view the ACC move as a lifeline, I don't. There was no ACCN on the table at that time, only membership in the ACC. SU could have chosen to let the B1G option play out. Maybe it had but the B1G's knee jerk reaction to rush to take Rutgers indicates otherwise. Regardless, SU could have stayed in the Big East.

Maybe you don't like those choices, but they remain choices, nonetheless. To me, a lifeline is the not a choice between options of varying degrees but rather the option of life (continue football) or death (drop football). Many on here would be happy to drop to FCS or D2 rather than be sucked into the spending wars of modern CFB. They obviously don't see the ACC invite as a lifeline.

As to your BC comment, there is no response. BC was already a member of the ACC when SU joined. I don't recall the ACC's actual motivation for inviting BC. Perhaps to give the ACC the 12th team to hold a Championship game? I am too lazy this morning to research the matter as it has no bearing on my original comment.

Based upon my understanding, you are correct on the B1G “vetting“. There were discussions and we were vetted, but no actionable offer was put forth (yet). The ACC acted and gave us an actionable offer that we obviously accepted. Did the ACC get wind of the B1G and acted 1st because they wanted us and were afraid of losing us? I can only speculate on that, but it seems possible. Had we waited, I believe we very well could have been in the B1G. At the time, I always thought the “fit” was better in the ACC over the B1G as a complete school entity. Also, a bird in hand is better than two in the bush. I am in no way an insider, but this was my understanding.

 

[Crv1983]

I guess we just disagree on the definition of lifeline. As for BC, you brought them into the discussion when you said “the ACC offered BC, Syracuse and Pitt to get 3 important states‘. I don’t agree and no major college conference has ever and most likely will never target Massachusetts to gain subscribers for their owned or affiliated network. It’s a pro sports state. Last comment, who is going to be writing the checks to support all of the Syracuse athletic teams if they downgrade football? Basketball is a profit maker but no where near enough to support the other sports. I liked the old days in Manley and to a lessor extent Archibald but time moves on. Syracuse needs to be competitive in the sport that drives the dollars. Don’t confuse that with spending like Alabama or Ohio State. I am sure Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Northwestern and others like them appreciate the revenue they are receiving for being in their respective conferences without having to spend. Their other athletic teams appreciate it too.

 

[tep624]

My hope is that the whole thing gets restructured into a cohesive relegation system. That’s the only thing that makes sense. It’s not based on how much you spend, it’s based on how you perform. Although spending often will tip the scales.

Structure it just like the English Football divisions. 4 separate divisions, 30ish teams each, 12 team playoff. Division 1 gets 4 autos, 2 gets 2 autos, 3 and 4 get one auto each. 4 at large will will be based on FBS rankings which naturally will slant towards Divison 1 by design. Bottom 3 in division 1 drop every year, top 3 in division 2 come up, and same happens with the other divisions. This prevents the Vanderbilts and Indianas of the world from defaulting into Division 1 simply because they exist.

Conferences mean nothing now anyway, with these idiotic naming rights deals and constant carousel movement of teams.

And to make it more fun maybe the FCS top 3 can move up into division 4 each year and the bottom of Divison 4 gets relegated down to FCS or something like that.

 

[All4SU]

yeah i don't blame the ACC 1% for anything that's occurred. The only hot tub time machine changes that MAY have changed the trajectory of things is if they could have gotten Penn St to come aboard or to get ND in as a full member. Neither is realistic mind you.

ACC gave Syracuse a home and a nice paycheck. Syracuse has done nothing since Pasqualoni to show sustained juice in football. That's about to change though.

The BE should have raided the ACC when they had the chance.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Not really any point I guess. Just pointing out that if SU has a spot or is in a good position but not finalized to be in the Big 10 or SEC, like likely FSU and Clemson appear to have through back channels, commentary on this board would be mostly negative to the ACC, like FSU is doing now. I don't think it is right and hope SU wouldn't do it but that is human nature.

If your suggestion is that SU fans would shift gears and react like any other fan base, then you're right- guilty as charged.
As of now we're not annionted, and yes if that were to change, our perspective would change as well.
To paraphrase Michael Corleone in Godfather 2, "we're all part of the same hypocrisy".

 

[elimunelson]

The BE should have raided the ACC when they had the chance.

If the queen had balls she would be king

It’s all melting up to 2 conf so not sure what that would have accomplished.

 

[Moontan]

Archibald

??

Archbold Stadium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DustyMoore]

No, this case is being heard in Florida. Jefferson Pilot does business only in North Carolina.

Haha… well played!

 

[DustyMoore]

Will Clemson turn into Neb is the question. Teams who have elite runs think it goes on forever. Ala fans forget those down years as well.

All good running towards money but Clemson could easily slip back to irrelevant Clemson in a tougher conf and become Rutgers.

Come on now… Rutgers? that’s just mean

 

[DustyMoore]

That hasn't hurt the SEC. The whole conference is country folks. The answer to everything is money, specifically football money. SEC fans are rabid football fans, ACC fans are not. Placement of the headquarters doesn't affect that.

This…

UVA agreed to leave independance to join the 7 schools that had been in the SoCon to late to play in the first football season, but UVA was a charter member.

I'll bet you know absolutely nothing about SoCar leaving the ACC. Nor do you know that SoCar long had used its powers in SC state government to force Clemson to play football games vs SoCar in Columbia. The ACC putting a stop to that was SoCar's first furious hatred for the ACC.

The first fault of the ACC was indeed having 4 NC schools, rather than taking VPI (VT). The second great default was not in adding GT as soon as Bobby Dodd realized that independence was killing GT athletics, which was 1969. VT rather than Wake and then GT as #9 would have meant at last half the SoCar wild eyed complaints would have never amounted to anything, which means SoCar would not have left. With SoCar still in the ACC and GT added a decade earlier, FSU also would have been added at least a half decayed before it was added. That 10 team ACC could have wooed PSU. And then all college athletics would have been different.

What you will not get at all is that Wake was added because it also was founded in what we today call the Research Triangle: the town of Wake Forest is in Wake County, just like Raleigh. Wake in the ACC was local schools taking care of each other.

You really think the BT is ever going to sniff BC? Or Pitt? Or Syracuse? Well, it might take 1 of that trio if, and only if, ND demands it to join and PSU agrees.

You absolutely nailed this..

“The first fault of the ACC was indeed having 4 NC schools, rather than taking VPI (VT). The second great default was not in adding GT as soon as Bobby Dodd realized that independence was killing GT athletics, which was 1969. VT rather than Wake and then GT as #9 would have meant at last half the SoCar wild eyed complaints would have never amounted to anything, which means SoCar would not have left. With SoCar still in the ACC and GT added a decade earlier, FSU also would have been added at least a half decayed before it was added. That 10 team ACC could have wooed PSU. And then all college athletics would have been different.”

This really would have changed everything… those schools you mentioned should’ve been added much sooner. The pick up of PSU, considering where they stood in the college football landscape and the dominant run they had in the 80s, would have the ACC on a much different playing field.

Very interesting too consider what the conference would look like today

 

[tep624]

UVA agreed to leave independance to join the 7 schools that had been in the SoCon to late to play in the first football season, but UVA was a charter member.

I'll bet you know absolutely nothing about SoCar leaving the ACC. Nor do you know that SoCar long had used its powers in SC state government to force Clemson to play football games vs SoCar in Columbia. The ACC putting a stop to that was SoCar's first furious hatred for the ACC.

The first fault of the ACC was indeed having 4 NC schools, rather than taking VPI (VT). The second great default was not in adding GT as soon as Bobby Dodd realized that independence was killing GT athletics, which was 1969. VT rather than Wake and then GT as #9 would have meant at last half the SoCar wild eyed complaints would have never amounted to anything, which means SoCar would not have left. With SoCar still in the ACC and GT added a decade earlier, FSU also would have been added at least a half decayed before it was added. That 10 team ACC could have wooed PSU. And then all college athletics would have been different.

What you will not get at all is that Wake was added because it also was founded in what we today call the Research Triangle: the town of Wake Forest is in Wake County, just like Raleigh. Wake in the ACC was local schools taking care of each other.

You really think the BT is ever going to sniff BC? Or Pitt? Or Syracuse? Well, it might take 1 of that trio if, and only if, ND demands it to join and PSU agrees.

I think Syracuse is a much stronger and logical candidate for the B1G then a lot of people give it credit for.

 

[elimunelson]

I think Syracuse is a much stronger and logical candidate for the B1G then a lot of people give it credit for.

Well we better figure out a way to get out of the grant of rights because we can’t afford leaving

Am I doing this right?

 

[WoadBlue]

The BE should have raided the ACC when they had the chance.

There never was such a time when it could have been done. The BE football division was formed, with Miami added to the whole BE as its 10th member, even as Miami was desperately begging the ACC to be added as its 10th member. The ACC failure at that time was not adding Miami then and within another year or 2 going to 12 to have a CCG. The ACC acted a decade too late and so even with 12 had lost years it needed to secure its football better.

BE football required PSU in there mix to become stable.

 

[WoadBlue]

I think Syracuse is a much stronger and logical candidate for the B1G then a lot of people give it credit for.

Considering the vakvuer of a CCG, if the BT had felt that even back in the 1990s with Syracuse football riding high, it would have added Cuse right after. adding PSU and begun staging its CCG.

 

[WoadBlue]

This…

You absolutely nailed this..

“The first fault of the ACC was indeed having 4 NC schools, rather than taking VPI (VT). The second great default was not in adding GT as soon as Bobby Dodd realized that independence was killing GT athletics, which was 1969. VT rather than Wake and then GT as #9 would have meant at last half the SoCar wild eyed complaints would have never amounted to anything, which means SoCar would not have left. With SoCar still in the ACC and GT added a decade earlier, FSU also would have been added at least a half decayed before it was added. That 10 team ACC could have wooed PSU. And then all college athletics would have been different.”

This really would have changed everything… those schools you mentioned should’ve been added much sooner. The pick up of PSU, considering where they stood in the college football landscape and the dominant run they had in the 80s, would have the ACC on a much different playing field.

Very interesting too consider what the conference would look like today

It probably worked be 18 members, all in EST, all but ND located in a state on the coast or bordering such states. It would be fully sound financially. PSU + Pitt + Cuse in that ACC would have been what was required for northeastern football to get back on its legs.

Gene Corrigan eventually acknowledged that he had tried to woo PSU, and it seems from what people close to Corrigan revealed that while PSU admonostratirs were very open, that JoePa was determined to be in the BT and turn his back fully on the northeast and the whole Atlantic coast area.

 

[kcsu]

I do think that the ACC will end up being a strong third place conf and unless for some reason JW is able to pull off a miracle and get us in the Big 10 the ACC will remain our home. If you listen to the ACC commissioner, he certainly doesn't sound like he is going to settle anything with any school looking to break the GOR. I believe this will go on for a minimum of two years and as we all know anything can happen in two years given what has already taken place and what is being discussed.
On a macro basis there will be an upper and lower division with football. The upper will govern itself and be a part from the lower division. Within the upper division i believe there will be two parts one comprised of the current and possibly future Big 10 and SEC teams and one comprised of the Big 12 and ACC. Obviously the Big 10 and SEC will recieve a greater share of the revenue but it is my opinion that the Big 12 and ACC will have plenty to compete against their conference foes, and advance to the playoffs which will eventually increase to 14 possibley 16 teams. I realize that this is all speculation but i do believe that the upper tier needs the Big 12 and ACC plus ND and possibly a few more schools to create a national appeal. I also believe that some of the lower tier teams will still have a chance to make the playoffs. Lots of speculation and lots to come but the next 3 years is going to see a break and the creation of two parts of college football. The power 4 in the upper and everyone else in the lower division. Cuse will have a seat at the big boy table.

 

[tep624]

Considering the vakvuer of a CCG, if the BT had felt that even back in the 1990s with Syracuse football riding high, it would have added Cuse right after. adding PSU and begun staging its CCG.

Syracuse was a founding member of the Big East. PSU was an independent at the time. That is part of the conversation. I don’t know if Syracuse jumps to the Big 10 late 80’s/early 90’s if offered.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

My hope is that the whole thing gets restructured into a cohesive relegation system. That’s the only thing that makes sense. It’s not based on how much you spend, it’s based on how you perform. Although spending often will tip the scales.

Structure it just like the English Football divisions. 4 separate divisions, 30ish teams each, 12 team playoff. Division 1 gets 4 autos, 2 gets 2 autos, 3 and 4 get one auto each. 4 at large will will be based on FBS rankings which naturally will slant towards Divison 1 by design. Bottom 3 in division 1 drop every year, top 3 in division 2 come up, and same happens with the other divisions. This prevents the Vanderbilts and Indianas of the world from defaulting into Division 1 simply because they exist.

Conferences mean nothing now anyway, with these idiotic naming rights deals and constant carousel movement of teams.

And to make it more fun maybe the FCS top 3 can move up into division 4 each year and the bottom of Divison 4 gets relegated down to FCS or something like that.

Scheduling would be a nightmare

 

[upperdeck]

Well we know Portugal isnt going to the SEC. cant even beat Georgia on a nuetral field.

 

[upperdeck]

Scheduling would be a nightmare

it would also mean teams would have no idea year to year who they play. you would probably have to go to an all league schedule with no OC type games, This isnt soccer with 40-50 game seasons. Would soccer relegation work with 10-12 game schedules either?

 

[Hoo's That]

it would also mean teams would have no idea year to year who they play. you would probably have to go to an all league schedule with no OC type games, This isnt soccer with 40-50 game seasons. Would soccer relegation work with 10-12 game schedules either?

Can someone please explain this sudden fascination among U.S. sports fans with the absolutely foreign (and inane IMO) concept of relegation? For over well 90% of the teams in the relegation/advancement zones it's a year to move up and then back to whence you came.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Can someone please explain this sudden fascination among U.S. sports fans with the absolutely foreign (and inane IMO) concept of relegation? For over well 90% of the teams in the relegation/advancement zones it's a year to move up and then back to whence you came.

It is a way to have a Super League and still allow everyone a chance to be in it. Instead of it being completely closed off.

So something like...

Top league has 10 divisions of 4 with the last placed teams being relegated.

Middle league has 10 divisions of 4 with first placed teams being promoted, and last placed teams being relegated.

Bottom league has 10 divisions of 6 with first placed teams being promoted.


It will never happen because you need a single governing body.

 

[Hoo's That]

It is a way to have a Super League and still allow everyone a chance to be in it. Instead of it being completely closed off.

So something like...

Top league has 10 divisions of 4 with the last placed teams being relegated.

Middle league has 10 divisions of 4 with first placed teams being promoted, and last placed teams being relegated.

Bottom league has 10 divisions of 6 with first placed teams being promoted.


It will never happen because you need a single governing body.

There's your mistake right in the first sentence. Everyone will not be given a chance to be in it, either voluntarily because they choose for one reason or another not to be in it or involuntarily because the bluebloods want all the money for themselves.

In all your projected scenarios you keep trying to come up with ways to get everyone in the picture when that just isn't going to happen.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

There's your mistake right in the first sentence. Everyone will not be given a chance to be in it, either voluntarily because they choose for one reason or another not to be in it or involuntarily because the bluebloods want all the money for themselves.

In all your projected scenarios you keep trying to come up with ways to get everyone in the picture when that just isn't going to happen.

There would be a huge disadvantage for most schools no doubt. Personally I do not want college football to go this route. But if it did exist, every FBS program would have a route to play in the Super League. Which keeps more of the country engaged in the Super League vs having a Super League with 90% of the teams in the Southeast in a closed system. Again, I do not want either to happen.


To further show how a relegation system would work...

Northeast
League 1 would typically be Notre Dame and Penn State battling it out for a playoff spot. Syracuse, BC, Pitt, West Virginia, Rutgers would typically fluctuate between League 1 and League 2. UConn, Temple, UMass, Buffalo, Delaware, Army, Navy would typically be in League 3 and occasionally in League 2.


In a closed Super League only Notre Dame and Penn State would make the cut. The others would be completely left out. With promotion/relegation some of the schools will occasionally be in the Super League. While all schools have a pathway to play in the Super League, realistically half of the schools will never sniff it.

But again none of this will ever happen because you need a centralized league office that will separate the FBS into regional divisions, and then run the entire FBS. No one will agree to conceding power.

 

[orangecuse]

Syracuse was a founding member of the Big East. PSU was an independent at the time. That is part of the conversation. I don’t know if Syracuse jumps to the Big 10 late 80’s/early 90’s if offered.

Ah, not a chance!

You are talking about an institution that consistently lacked any degree of foresight, etc. Where its powers that be consistently rolled in negligent fashion relative to taking care of its own house, let alone something considerably broader in scope. An AD at the time stating that due to the Dome, its uses, etc., could never do field turf and so stuck with dated astroturf. An administration well into the 2010's saying 'someday' on an IPF, when it already (at that time) a day late and dollar short. The infamous cringe worthy locker room scene after a big upset win early in Dino's tenure...to name just a few.