Garrett Williams and Field Turf

[Cuseregular]

Here’s what I can’t wrap my head around. Many teams use the same stuff as do the Colts and Lions in domes. Do they all lose a player every other game to a torn ACL? The nfl puts a lot of thought and money into player safety. They’re paying them millions. Why would they use some inferior product? I just get tired of those whose comments are on auto pilot that injuries are due to OUR turf. Dumb question but is there any dome in the world that uses grass?

I’ll answer this in the grp text thread Rick

 

[SuFTW]

A slight tear with acute injury yes absolutely, they’ll do an mri for that etc. I’m talking the under the radar sub clinical slow cumulative fraying stresses (if you saw a ligament on vivo on a cadaver you’d see it’s literally a bunch of parallel fibers all wrapped together), these repetitive traumas can and does fray a few fibers at a time, again using the visual analogy of a burlap bag tearing a few fibers at a time until it tears outright.

It’s like sub acute under the radar inflammation that’s the driver of many ultimate disease states that can only be measured with certain non routine blood tests (Homocystine, C-reactive protein, and CRP). But almost no doctors do these blood tests proactively preventatively ahead of time to try and avoid disease problems, and wait until disease shows up and then diagnosis it and treats reactively.

We know when there’s major inflammation in us as it’s manifests as pain and overt disease, not so much this early low grade inflammation.

This leads to disease states depending on one’s unique genetic make up and predisposition (some people get lupus some people get heart disease some cancer etc).

But with knee problems that develop slowly overtime to allow a last straw scenario, you don’t even necessarily know about in that you’re getting close to that last straw. So no mri etc will be done to be able to be able know.

And viola ya get the seemingly out of nowhere non-contact related turf knee injury. You might “tweak“ your knee here and there but that’s about it.

Seems like somewhat of a stretch comparing repetitive turf damage to the inflammation theory as they are different mechanisms.
The reason CRP isn’t routinely tested for is because it does not diagnose or indicate a specific disease.

 

[sufandu]

You know 100x more than anyone here. But I’m not convinced about the cumulative effect. Even a slight tear a player will know because of some pain and he’s be checked out. We also use the same turf as many other teams. I think it’s a combination of a lot of things including dumb luck.

When I took an athletic training class, the trainer teaching it told a story about a soccer player that tore her ACL with no pain. Since she had no pain, she thought she was good to go back in the game. The trainer could see the instability when she walked and had to convince her she was injured.

 

[rrlbees]

I think the Arizona Cardinals have “trays” of natural grass that they slide into their domed stadium.

Now that sounds cool.

 

[4evaOrange]

Ahhh the dreaded shaky turf potato’s

 

[Cuseregular]

Seems like somewhat of a stretch comparing repetitive turf damage to the inflammation theory as they are different mechanisms.
The reason CRP isn’t routinely tested for is because it does not diagnose or indicate a specific disease.

Yeah no kidding really? Of course they’re different mechanisms, and re ESR of course there too that’s why I listed the other two to get a comprehensive look into general inflammatory states. Follow up diagnostic work nails down things.

Overall it’s actually the perfect analogy and example of under the radar illness/injury processes that will one day manifest that everybody is shocked when it does. Nice try though.

 

[Obie9]

Here’s what I can’t wrap my head around. Many teams use the same stuff as do the Colts and Lions in domes. Do they all lose a player every other game to a torn ACL? The nfl puts a lot of thought and money into player safety. They’re paying them millions. Why would they use some inferior product? I just get tired of those whose comments are on auto pilot that injuries are due to OUR turf. Dumb question but is there any dome in the world that uses grass?

Yes.
NFLPA president JC Tretter calls for all teams to use grass field

Here’s what I can’t wrap my head around. Many teams use the same stuff as do the Colts and Lions in domes. Do they all lose a player every other game to a torn ACL? The nfl puts a lot of thought and money into player safety. They’re paying them millions. Why would they use some inferior product? I just get tired of those whose comments are on auto pilot that injuries are due to OUR turf. Dumb question but is there any dome in the world that uses grass?

There has been a push to change all fields to grass, and believe this will eventually happen.
Carroll: NFL needs to 'seriously' look into grass-turf debate

You know 100x more than anyone here. But I’m not convinced about the cumulative effect. Even a slight tear a player will know because of some pain and he’s be checked out. We also use the same turf as many other teams. I think it’s a combination of a lot of things including dumb luck.

Cuseregular knows what he is talking about, but I sure hope he does not know 100x more than I do. If he does, then they should take away my license to practice.

There is a lot of research on this topic, and much of it should really not be up for debate. Teams, whether it be football, soccer, etc. that play on field turf, sustain a higher number of ACL injuries when looked at over time.

As I suggested elsewhere a return to the old type turf but with better padding beneath is the answer so it doesn’t feel like concrete. As it is this new turf is too spongy transmitting too much energy force into these kids knees.

There has been several generations of field turf, with each version improving the surface and padding, yet we continue to have the same issues. Some studies show that the increased frictional force between the shoe and field turf may be to blame for many ACL injuries. In other words, the foot is more secure and does not move as much on artificial turf versus grass. Thus, movement of the torso & hip with the foot locked into place within the turf will place greater forces through the knee and ACL.

Prevention of anterior cruciate ligament injuries in sports. Part I: systematic review of risk factors in male athletes

Bottom line, there is no easy solution. However, if I were a college coach who played on grass, the playing surface would be a small part of my sales pitch to the student and family, especially for females, which have a greater propensity for ACL tears.

 

[Cuseregular]

Yes.
NFLPA president JC Tretter calls for all teams to use grass field

There has been a push to change all fields to grass, and believe this will eventually happen.
Carroll: NFL needs to 'seriously' look into grass-turf debate


Cuseregular knows what he is talking about, but I sure hope he does not know 100x more than I do. If he does, then they should take away my license to practice.

There is a lot of research on this topic, and much of it should really not be up for debate. Teams, whether it be football, soccer, etc. that play on field turf, sustain a higher number of ACL injuries when looked at over time.

There has been several generations of field turf, with each version improving the surface and padding, yet we continue to have the same issues. Some studies show that the increased frictional force between the shoe and field turf may be to blame for many ACL injuries. In other words, the foot is more secure and does not move as much on artificial turf versus grass. Thus, movement of the torso & hip with the foot locked into place within the turf will place greater forces through the knee and ACL.

Prevention of anterior cruciate ligament injuries in sports. Part I: systematic review of risk factors in male athletes

Bottom line, there is no easy solution. However, if I were a college coach who played on grass, the playing surface would be a small part of my sales pitch to the student and family, especially for females, which have a greater propensity for ACL tears.

Yep no doubt on all that. Sooner or later something need be done.

Incidence of Knee Injuries on Artificial Turf Versus Natural Grass in National Collegiate Athletic Association American Football: 2004-2005 Through 2013-2014 Seasons - PubMed

Artificial turf is an important risk factor for specific knee ligament injuries in NCAA football. Injury rates for PCL tears were significantly increased during competitions played on artificial turf as compared with natural grass. Lower NCAA divisions (II and III) also showed higher rates of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[jgeorge322]

Has an acl tear been confirmed?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Has an acl tear been confirmed?

Dino should comment at his press conference today.

 

[MSOrange]

That is the ideal solution- if someone can figure out where to store an entire football field outside the Dome and how to slide it in and out. Just minor details

 

[OrangeXtreme]

That is the ideal solution- if someone can figure out where to store an entire football field outside the Dome and how to slide it in and out. Just minor details

I have a toaster with a little tray that slides out to dispose of the crumbs.

Of course, it didn't cost me $500 million when I bought it over 15 years ago.

 

[sufandu]

How would the presence of the basketball court affect the ability to use real grass in the dome? I suppose it's a moot point if they use the tray method. How much more manpower does that require?

 

[llandz]

Now that sounds cool.

I do know they use natural grass. But they also have a retractable dome roof.

 

[richmondcuse03]

How would the presence of the basketball court affect the ability to use real grass in the dome? I suppose it's a moot point if they use the tray method. How much more manpower does that require?

I don’t think with our weather this is realistic. But it would require crazy manpower. It’s one thing when you have a built in rolling system that does the work for you. It’s another when you’d have to manually bring in hundreds of large trays. It’s a moot point though. It works in Arizona. It wouldn’t work here. Plus we don’t even have the space for the grass.

 

[javadoc]

Yep no doubt on all that. Sooner or later something need be done.

Incidence of Knee Injuries on Artificial Turf Versus Natural Grass in National Collegiate Athletic Association American Football: 2004-2005 Through 2013-2014 Seasons - PubMed

Artificial turf is an important risk factor for specific knee ligament injuries in NCAA football. Injury rates for PCL tears were significantly increased during competitions played on artificial turf as compared with natural grass. Lower NCAA divisions (II and III) also showed higher rates of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

90-year-old Schiano still at Rutgers: “Don’t go to Syracuse, they use tall fescue, that stuff is dangerous!”

 

[OrangeXtreme]

How would the presence of the basketball court affect the ability to use real grass in the dome? I suppose it's a moot point if they use the tray method. How much more manpower does that require?

All SU would have to do is demolish the brand new Barnes Center and Carnegie Library to create a giant open space approx 120 yds x 60 yds to hold the grass when it's not in use.

Unlike Arizona, I'm not sure how the grass will hold up when it's outside for most of the winter. And when the tundra is frozen in February, will the LAX teams enjoy playing on it?

 

[kcsu]

I wonder if Nike can develop a shoe that works better on turf than on natural grass

 

[upperdeck]

Players dont want to slip so they use whatever makes that less often.. it all adds up.

its a contact sport where guys are big and change direction all the time..

Guys are 20-50 lbs heavier across the board then 20-30 yrs ago..

 

[rrlbees]

Yes.
NFLPA president JC Tretter calls for all teams to use grass field

There has been a push to change all fields to grass, and believe this will eventually happen.
Carroll: NFL needs to 'seriously' look into grass-turf debate


Cuseregular knows what he is talking about, but I sure hope he does not know 100x more than I do. If he does, then they should take away my license to practice.

There is a lot of research on this topic, and much of it should really not be up for debate. Teams, whether it be football, soccer, etc. that play on field turf, sustain a higher number of ACL injuries when looked at over time.

There has been several generations of field turf, with each version improving the surface and padding, yet we continue to have the same issues. Some studies show that the increased frictional force between the shoe and field turf may be to blame for many ACL injuries. In other words, the foot is more secure and does not move as much on artificial turf versus grass. Thus, movement of the torso & hip with the foot locked into place within the turf will place greater forces through the knee and ACL.

Prevention of anterior cruciate ligament injuries in sports. Part I: systematic review of risk factors in male athletes

Bottom line, there is no easy solution. However, if I were a college coach who played on grass, the playing surface would be a small part of my sales pitch to the student and family, especially for females, which have a greater propensity for ACL tears.

Yea, I know it’s safer on grass than field turf. I think I said that further up and it’s a given. My question is why SU? We aren’t the only team, college and pro, that uses field turf. What is SU doing different or wrong? Or is it just bad luck?

 

[Bayside44]

Yea, I know it’s safer on grass than field turf. I think I said that further up and it’s a given. My question is why SU? We aren’t the only team, college and pro, that uses field turf. What is SU doing different or wrong? Or is it just bad luck?

I'm old enough to remember Jason Seehorn and Saquon Barkley's injuries being blamed on grass...

 

[DPCuse]

There are hundreds of teams in all sports and levels using turf when they have open air stadiums. We have a dome that is not retractable. That we play basketball in. And that we can't roll a tray of grass in to. So get out of your heads that we can have grass. Is turf generally worse than grass? Probably. But people are acting like we are the only ones using it and that our turf is way more dangerous than anyone elses. I do not believe that and this entire thread is painting a bad picture of the program. We all feel bad for the student athletes but I can assure you, the coaches and university feel worse.

 

[Obie9]

Yea, I know it’s safer on grass than field turf. I think I said that further up and it’s a given. My question is why SU? We aren’t the only team, college and pro, that uses field turf. What is SU doing different or wrong? Or is it just bad luck?

Please read my post. I said teams, meaning all teams, professional, college, high school that use an artificial turf have a higher number of knee injuries when compared to teams that play on grass when looked at over time, meaning not just one season. The new generation of field turf does not appear to have helped the problem much. More research is needed as there is no easy solution to the problem.

 

[MSOrange]

There are hundreds of teams in all sports and levels using turf when they have open air stadiums. We have a dome that is not retractable. That we play basketball in. And that we can't roll a tray of grass in to. So get out of your heads that we can have grass. Is turf generally worse than grass? Probably. But people are acting like we are the only ones using it and that our turf is way more dangerous than anyone elses. I do not believe that and this entire thread is painting a bad picture of the program. We all feel bad for the student athletes but I can assure you, the coaches and university feel worse.

That’s a good point. It’s a very legitimate discussion but I can’t say I’d be excited about recruits reading this.

 

[kcsu]

Yea, I know it’s safer on grass than field turf. I think I said that further up and it’s a given. My question is why SU? We aren’t the only team, college and pro, that uses field turf. What is SU doing different or wrong? Or is it just bad luck?

Bees it has to be a combination. Obviously, Field Turf is worse than natural grass. Is ours different because the base isn't dirt? Don't know but regardless of how much dirt is packed it will never be as hard or dense as a concrete slab. So, I would start at the pad and then look at shoes and training. Other than surface, shoes and training I'm not sure what can be done.