Hunt is not a QB

[RF2044]

I think you misinterpret my comments- who's giving up on week three? I'm not even giving up on Hunt. All of the Hunt apologists keep talking about his potential and that maybe he will grow into a decent qb-. I hope you all are right, all I'm saying is that at some point he will have reached his potential, and that he needs to rapidly increase his rate of improvement above and beyond what he has shown so far. Just tired of waiting years at a time for good qb play to develope to maybe get a chance to get to an 8 wins season. Frankly we should set our goals higher than 8 wins once every four years. We deserve much better than this.

Here's why I think your perspective is off, given the hole we had to climb out of--and STILL climbing out of, given the lack of skilled elite talent. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. The grob era put us in a hole, the facilities situation has put us in a hole. and although we've made great strides, we're not all the way back yet. Nassib was a pretty good QB. Hunt IS a pretty good QB. Neither one of them was highly touted or had other major offers, so if you're lamenting the lack of blue chip talent at QB, I'm not sure what to tell you. Hopefully Long / Edouard take things to the next level, but until then we have to go with what we have. And for the record, after 10+ years of QB recruiting futility post-McNabb, it is not difficult to make the argument that Nassib / Hunt are the best QBs we've fielded since 1999. And the results on the field bear that out, even if they are often imperfect.

In terms of setting goals higher than 8 wins, well--there are a lot of posters who would tell you that the game is rigged against us ever getting back into the top 10. I'm not sure that winning 8-9 games per year is "settling," given the college football landscape. After where we've come from a short time ago, frankly I have a difficult time being disappointed with an 8 win target. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see us compete for 10+ wins.

But I think back to the grob era, that began with a 1 win season, and think back through the ineptitude that were 3 and 4 win seasons [that included a loss at home to Akron]. I think about 2011, when we went 5-7 and lost the last five games of the year, completely unable to do anything on offense. I'm not pleased that we lost to Maryland. And I don't think that we've "arrived" in terms of offensive production. But I do think we're on the right path in term of generating more productivity. We simply need to do a better job finishing drives and putting points on the board. But we're not that far off, IMO.

For the record, you are 100% on the money with this observation: "he [Hunt] needs to rapidly increas his rate of improvement above and byond what he has shown so far [this year]." Agreed. Given the strong way he ended last year over the last three games, I expected him to take another step forward this year in terms of passing effectiveness. He hasn't lived up to my expectations in that regard, but he also hasn't been nearly as bad as some posters in this thread suggest, either.

 

[GoSU96]

I think you misinterpret my comments- who's giving up on week three? I'm not even giving up on Hunt. All of the Hunt apologists keep talking about his potential and that maybe he will grow into a decent qb-. I hope you all are right, all I'm saying is that at some point he will have reached his potential, and that he needs to rapidly increase his rate of improvement above and beyond what he has shown so far. Just tired of waiting years at a time for good qb play to develope to maybe get a chance to get to an 8 wins season. Frankly we should set our goals higher than 8 wins once every four years. We deserve much better than this.

Rapidly increase his rate of improvement? He was two drops and two passes missed by a foot each away from being ACC player of the week.

 

[Statesman1]

Here's why I think your perspective is off, given the hole we had to climb out of--and STILL climbing out of, given the lack of skilled elite talent. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. The grob era put us in a hole, the facilities situation has put us in a hole. and although we've made great strides, we're not all the way back yet. Nassib was a pretty good QB. Hunt IS a pretty good QB. Neither one of them was highly touted or had other major offers, so if you're lamenting the lack of blue chip talent at QB, I'm not sure what to tell you. Hopefully Long / Edouard take things to the next level, but until then we have to go with what we have. And for the record, after 10+ years of QB recruiting futility post-McNabb, it is not difficult to make the argument that Nassib / Hunt are the best QBs we've fielded since 1999. And the results on the field bear that out, even if they are often imperfect.

In terms of setting goals higher than 8 wins, well--there are a lot of posters who would tell you that the game is rigged against us ever getting back into the top 10. I'm not sure that winning 8-9 games per year is "settling," given the college football landscape. After where we've come from a short time ago, frankly I have a difficult time being disappointed with an 8 win target. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see us compete for 10+ wins.

But I think back to the grob era, that began with a 1 win season, and think back through the ineptitude that were 3 and 4 win seasons [that included a loss at home to Akron]. I think about 2011, when we went 5-7 and lost the last five games of the year, completely unable to do anything on offense. I'm not pleased that we lost to Maryland. And I don't think that we've "arrived" in terms of offensive production. But I do think we're on the right path in term of generating more productivity. We simply need to do a better job finishing drives and putting points on the board. But we're not that far off, IMO.

For the record, you are 100% on the money with this observation: "he [Hunt] needs to rapidly increas his rate of improvement above and byond what he has shown so far [this year]." Agreed. Given the strong way he ended last year over the last three games, I expected him to take another step forward this year in terms of passing effectiveness. He hasn't lived up to my expectations in that regard, but he also hasn't been nearly as bad as some posters in this thread suggest, either.

Agree 100% about the state of the program being abysmal over the years- bit that's not really relevant to a discussion about Hunts qb play. You are rationalizing lowered expectations because the program was on skid row for so long. Yes, I agree that Nassib and Hunt are the best we've had since McNabb, but really that's not saying much. Hunt has done little to improve upon his final three games of last year which gave us all hope, against the softest part of our schedule no less. If you wish to take comfort in Nassibs career arc that's fine, but they are two different players and just because one guy figures it out doesn't mean another will. I will believe it when I see it out of Hunt, just like every other player. We are going to find out a lot about him on Saturday and the next few games and I will be rooting for him every minute of every game. However, what we are watching so far is not good qb play out of the guy. Next man up/I trust the coaches

 

[tipphill]

He throws it too hard sometimes. Lots of times today on crossing routes he has just put too much on it (and often behind the wideout).

he is afraid of the interception

 

[RF2044]

Agree 100% about the state of the program being abysmal over the years- bit that's not really relevant to a discussion about Hunts qb play. You are rationalizing lowered expectations because the program was on skid row for so long. Yes, I agree that Nassib and Hunt are the best we've had since McNabb, but really that's not saying much. Hunt has done little to improve upon his final three games of last year which gave us all hope, against the softest part of our schedule no less. If you wish to take comfort in Nassibs career arc that's fine, but they are two different players and just because one guy figures it out doesn't mean another will. I will believe it when I see it out of Hunt, just like every other player. We are going to find out a lot about him on Saturday and the next few games and I will be rooting for him every minute of every game. However, what we are watching so far is not good qb play out of the guy. Next man up/I trust the coaches

Actually, I take comfort in agreeing to disagree with your pessimistic viewpoint.

I look forward to Hunt disproving many of your criticisms as the season progresses.

 

[Statesman1]

Actually, I take comfort in agreeing to disagree with your pessimistic viewpoint.

I look forward to Hunt disproving many of your criticisms as the season progresses.

Well, I look forward to it too, but it hasn't happened yet. Thank you for proving my point- keep "looking forward" to Hunt disproving my "pessimism". What you call pessimism is actually called objectivity- you're so blinded by your fandom and the often downright poor qb play of the last 15 years that you can't even recognize and accept the obviously mediocre play out of this guy. I hope and pray he figures it out because the clock is ticking, but so far, he hasn't.

 

[RF2044]

Thank you for proving my point- keep "looking forward" to Hunt disproving my "pessimism" - cause he hasn't done it yet. What you call pessimism is actually called objectivity- you're so blinded by your fandom and the often downright poor qb play of the last 15 years that you can't even recognize and accept the obviously mediocre play out of this guy. I hope and pray he figures it out because the clock is ticking, but so far, he hasn't. To suggest otherwise is to be a fanboy, a yes man, a fanatic, a poseur.

Hasn't done it yet? Really? How do you "objectivity" rationalize away last year against Pitt, BC, or the Bowl game to close out last season? How about his performance the game before last? Even last game, which was disappointing on some levels, he wasn't nearly as bad as you are trying to portray.

You're not being objective, you're being narrow mindedly unrealistic. You're so blinded by unrealistic expectations, that there might not be a QB in program history that would satisfy your criteria for acceptable performance. I would have loved to hear your "objective" take on McNabb's inconsistency and potential when he was playing here.

And I was trying to be polite before, but screw it--you are flat out wrong about Hun's capabilities. And about my reason for refuting your off-target take. A fan boy--honestly, just a flat out poor post on your part. Which I'm starting to recognize as being par for the course, given this exchange.

 

[billsin01]

He's currently number 60 in the ESPN QBR for the season, which also factors in running.
His Pass EPA based on the QBR criteria is 3.4, which puts him at 109 out of 126.

One thing to be careful of with those stats, particularly in the college game, is that a playmaker or two can basically skew the stats drastically as can playcalling and offensive design. If Tayvon Austin and Steadman Bailey are catching passes or there's a Julio Jones or Michael Floyd out there or even a Mike Williams, Hunt's numbers look massively different. Brady Quinn had completely miserable numbers under Ty Willingham who was actively trying to destroy ND football, then put up monster numbers with almost identical talent around him under Weis, who at least appeared to be trying to win games.

Anyway, I'm not posting this to insinuate that Hunt is great and being held back by personnel or offensive coordinators, merely saying that QBR and stuff like that is only part of the equation.

 

[billsin01]

Well, I look forward to it too, but it hasn't happened yet. Thank you for proving my point- keep "looking forward" to Hunt disproving my "pessimism". What you call pessimism is actually called objectivity- you're so blinded by your fandom and the often downright poor qb play of the last 15 years that you can't even recognize and accept the obviously mediocre play out of this guy. I hope and pray he figures it out because the clock is ticking, but so far, he hasn't.

I think a couple of things here:

1) I apologize for not reading the thread but what are you suggesting is the correct avenue if Hunt isn't the answer? I mean he clearly beat out everyone else in camp and, since you're such a fan of objectivity, there is absolutely no way to suggest that simply force-feeding snaps to a young QB hastens development. I'm not trying to be snarky but simply stating the truth that making the call to go with a young QB stands to reason for a lot of people but doesn't guarantee an all-conference player a couple years from now. I'm not sure people always understand that.

2) Development is not always linear. Anyone who follows minor league prospects in baseball know there are fits and starts and it's often really difficult to know exactly what a player's ceiling and baseline are. But as for Hunt, he's a guy who led you to an 8-5 season last year, he seems to have some talent. In his past two games he's 34-58 passing for close to 400 yards with close to 250 rushing. I mean, if we're pointing to issues on this team he might be on the list, but he's down a ways, IMO.

Is Hunt the answer? I"m not sure, but I really don't think it's time to pull the plug.

 

[Statesman1]

I think a couple of things here:

1) I apologize for not reading the thread but what are you suggesting is the correct avenue if Hunt isn't the answer? I mean he clearly beat out everyone else in camp and, since you're such a fan of objectivity, there is absolutely no way to suggest that simply force-feeding snaps to a young QB hastens development. I'm not trying to be snarky but simply stating the truth that making the call to go with a young QB stands to reason for a lot of people but doesn't guarantee an all-conference player a couple years from now. I'm not sure people always understand that.

2) Development is not always linear. Anyone who follows minor league prospects in baseball know there are fits and starts and it's often really difficult to know exactly what a player's ceiling and baseline are. But as for Hunt, he's a guy who led you to an 8-5 season last year, he seems to have some talent. In his past two games he's 34-58 passing for close to 400 yards with close to 250 rushing. I mean, if we're pointing to issues on this team he might be on the list, but he's down a ways, IMO.

Is Hunt the answer? I"m not sure, but I really don't think it's time to pull the plug.

I've never suggested pulling the plug on Hunt or that he's not the most viable option currently on the roster. All I've stated is that he's an above average runner and a below average to average passer. Being the best option on our roster doesn't mean he's good. Because Nassib figured it out doesn't mean Hunt will. For every Nassib we have a RJ Anderson, Andrew Robinson, Troy Nunes, Cam Dantley, Perry Patterson etc. all had their moments, none were good college QB's. Hunt has shown flashes, but then again I hit a few decent shots in a round of golf but that doesn't make me a good golfer. What we are being treated too right now is average, at best, qb play. Let's just call it what it is. My only issue is with fans trying to tell me what I'm watching is something that it isn't. I don't mean to come off as negative defending this point but that's really the only point I'm trying to make. So lets keep running Hunt out there and hope he proves me wrong- nothing would make me happier.

 

[RF2044]

Building on my point above, let's consider the top three QBs in program history--Don McPherson, Marvin Graves, and Donovan McNabb--and apply some of the "objective" logic you've expressed throughout this thread. First up, Donny Mac:

Season Completion %
1984 37.9%
1985 53.5%
1986 52.8%
1987 56.3%

Here's the team record over those years:
1984 6-5
1985 7-5
1986 5-6
1987 11-0-1

I can only imagine what you would have said in 84, 85, and 86 about how the fanbase "deserves" something more than 8 wins. By your criteria, you also would have been slamming him for his inability to accurately pass, and the fact that we weren't winning. Forget about 8 wins. You would have kicked him to the curb before his senior year... and then blasted him for being an inaccurate passer en route to an undefeated season.

Now for Marvin Graves--who I legitimately believe might be the pound-for-pound best passer in program history. Let's see what the numbers say:

Season Completion %
1990 57.5%
1991 59.3%
1992 60.3%
1993 61.1%

Here's the team record over those years:
1990 7-4-2 [GASP!!!]
1991 10-2
1992 10-2
1993 6-4-1

Again, I can picture the narrative: the guy showed promise early, but failed to progress much as a passer. And look at how many ties he had! And look at how the team tanked his senior year! Forget 8 wins--the fanbase deserves more than 7 / 6 wins! Perhaps most surprising is that Graves never had a higher completion % than what Hunt had last year, in his first year as a starter [despite Hunt's mid-season struggles]. Pretty eye opening, isn't it?

Last but not least, the lightning rod himself--Donovan McNabb:

Season Completion %
1995 61.8%
1996 54.9%
1997 54.7%
1998 62.5%

Here's the team record over those years:
1995 9-3
1996 9-3
1997 9-4
1998 8-4

And look at all those losses every year, tainting Donovan's accomplishments.


The best completion percentage from the elite QBs mentioned above--and this is the TOP completion % for those 12 years, just to be clear--was 62.5%--and that was with these guys throwing to some of the BEST wide receivers in program history. Rob Moore. Qadry Ismail. Rob Carpenter. Tommy Kane. Marvin Harrison. Kevin Johnson.

Compare them to the lackluster talent at WR Hunt is working with.

For the record, here are Hunt's completion percentages for the two seasons he's been a starter. As you'll see, his completion percentage matches up favorably with the top QBs in program history, despite your insistence that he stinks:

2013 61.2%
2014 58.7%

And that 2014 number is skewed downward based upon last game, with a limited set of overall data since we're only 3 games into what will hopefully be a 13 game season. It will normalize over the course of the season, and likely eclipse 62% or so by seasons end.

Note--I didn't bother including total yards or TDs, or even yards per attempt as the game has evolved and become more short passing oriented in the last decade, which makes it pointless to compare on those criteria. I'm not suggesting that completion % is the only way to compare QBs, I'm just focusing on that since you seem so focused on how Hunt isn't a passer.

Now, let's consider your "more than 8 wins or bust" argument. Just for the record, those are 12 of the best quarterbacked years in program history. We got 10 or more wins 3 times, during arguably the best sustained era of Syracuse football. Please keep in mind that two of these came during the Graves era, when we were at the absolute PINNACLE of our program having elite caliber talent. We only got 9 or more wins 3 other times. The rest of the years were 8 wins or fewer.

Just for comparative perspective--we also had 7 wins twice, 6 wins twice, and had a losing record mixed in one year.

And in the rest of the program's history, we've only gotten more than 8 wins a handful of times, over more than 125 years of our football program's history. Ben Schwarzwalder accomplished it ONCE, during the 1959 national championship season. Don't take my word for it--see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse_Orange_football

Just to save you some time, here are the years we've gotten 9 or more wins:

1915
1959
1987
1988
1991
1992
1995
1996
1997
2001

Keep in mind that this is across ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE YEARS of program history.

Hopefully this proves my point. Us getting to more than 8 wins historically is NOT the norm, it is the exception. And while all fans on this site would love for the program to get there consistently, it isn't what we "deserve" as a fanbase--it's what we aspire to. And it will be difficult to attain that, given that we are still overcoming the nadir of our program, which bottomed out 5 short seasons ago. We're just getting to the point now where our facilities are coming up to where they aren't placing us at a disadvantage, we still lack skill players who are elite athletes, and yet we've won two straight bowls and are angling for a third. Which is why I don't view 7 or 8 win seasons as being indicative of failure or mediocrity as you've labeled it--it is a step along the path toward more consistent, sustainable program success.

Nobody is claiming that Hunt [or Nassib before him] is an elite all american, nor necessarily some top flight NFL prospects. But his production / capabilities are fine [and partially a function of limited playmaking talent around him]. It is your perspective about what constitutes acceptable performance--both at the program level and in terms of the QB--that is out of whack with historical fact.

 

[SmilinBob]

I think the plethora of short passes skews the % numbers. Football has changed a lot over the years regarding this as you can look at hall of fame qb's in the NFL the same way.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Building on my point above, let's consider the top three QBs in program history--Don McPherson, Marvin Graves, and Donovan McNabb--and apply some of the "objective" logic you've expressed throughout this thread. First up, Donny Mac:

Season Completion %
1984 37.9%
1985 53.5%
1986 52.8%
1987 56.3%

Here's the team record over those years:
1984 6-5
1985 7-5
1986 5-6
1987 11-0-1

I can only imagine what you would have said in 84, 85, and 86 about how the fanbase "deserves" something more than 8 wins. By your criteria, you also would have been slamming him for his inability to accurately pass, and the fact that we weren't winning. Forget about 8 wins. You would have kicked him to the curb before his senior year... and then blasted him for being an inaccurate passer en route to an undefeated season.

Now for Marvin Graves:

Season Completion %
1990 57.5%
1991 59.3%
1992 60.3%
1993 61.1%

Here's the team record over those years:
1990 7-4-2 [GASP!!!]
1991 10-2
1992 10-2
1993 6-4-1

Again, I can picture the narrative: the guy showed promise early, but failed to progress much as a passer. And look at how many ties he had! And look at how the team tanked his senior year! Forget 8 wins--the fanbase deserves more than 7 / 6 wins...

Last but not least, the lightning rod himself--Donovan McNabb:

Season Completion %
1995 61.8%
1996 54.9%
1997 54.7%
1998 62.5%

Here's the team record over those years:
1995 9-3
1996 9-3
1997 9-4
1998 8-4

And look at all those losses every year, tainting Donovan's accomplishments.


The best completion percentage from the elite QBs mentioned above--and this is the TOP completion % for those 12 years, just to be clear--was 62.5%--and that was with these guys throwing to some of the BEST wide receivers in program history. Rob Moore. Qadry Ismail. Rob Carpenter. Tommy Kane. Marvin Harrison. Kevin Johnson.

Compare them to the lackluster talent at WR Hunt is working with.

For the record, here are Hunt's completion percentages for the two seasons he's been a starter. As you'll see, his completion percentage matches up favorably with the top QBs in program history, despite your insistence that he stinks:

2013 61.2%
2014 58.7%

And that 2014 number is skewed downward based upon last game, with a limited set of overall data since we're only 3 games into what will hopefully be a 13 game season. It will normalize over the course of the season, and likely eclipse 62% or so by seasons end.

Note--I didn't bother including total yards or TDs, as the game has evolved and become more pass oriented in the last decade, which makes it pointless to compare on those criteria. I'm not suggesting that completion % is the only way to compare QBs, I'm just focusing on that since you seem so focused on how Hunt isn't a passer.

Now, let's consider your "more than 8 wins or bust" argument. Just for the record, those are 12 of the best quarterbacked years in program history. We got 10 or more wins 3 times, during arguably the best sustained era of Syracuse football. Please keep in mind that two of these came during the Graves era, when we were at the absolute PINNACLE of our program having elite caliber talent.

We only got 9 or more wins 3 other times. The rest of the years were 8 wins or fewer. And in the rest of the program's history, we only got more than 8 wins a handful of times, over more than 125 years of our football program's history. Ben Schwarzwalder accomplished it ONCE, during the 1959 national championship season. Don't take my word for it--see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse_Orange_football

Just to save you some time, here are the years we've gotten 9 or more wins:

1915
1959
1987
1988
1991
1992
1995
1996
1997
2001

Keep in mind that this is across ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE YEARS of program history.

Hopefully this proves my point. Us getting to more than 8 wins historically is NOT the norm, it is the exception. And while all fans on this site would love for the program to get there consistently, it isn't what we "deserve" as a fanbase--it's what we aspire to. And it will be difficult to attain that, given that we are still overcoming the nadir of our program, which bottomed out 5 short seasons ago. We're just getting to the point now where our facilities are coming up to where they aren't placing us at a disadvantage, we still lack skill players who are elite athletes, and yet we've won two straight bowls and are angling for a third.

Nobody is claiming that Hunt [or Nassib before him] are elite all americans, nor necessarily top flight NFL prospects. But their production / capabilities are fine [and partially a function of limited playmaking talent around them]. It is your perspective about what constitutes acceptable performance that is out of whack.

I happen to think our productivity the last 10 years or so is in part due to the limitations of the QBs. Great QBs make average WRs better, but if you can't throw, you can't throw.

 

[RF2044]

I happen to think our productivity the last 10 years or so is in part due to the limitations of the QBs. Great QBs make average WRs better, but if you can't throw, you can't throw.

It is much easier--and simpler--to point to one root cause, when in actuality the problem is multi-dimensional.

Great quarterbacking certainly gives teams an edge. But ultimately the productivity of even a great QB will be impaired by lack of talent around him, especially at the skill positions. Look at when McNabb was here, when our defense was relatively "average." 3 to 4 losses every year.

And also consider how great WRs can make average throwing QBs better: see: McNabb's freshman year, when he played with Marvin Harrison.

The truism you're espousing works both ways.

 

[JoeSU]

It is much easier--and simpler--to point to one root cause, when in actuality the problem is multi-dimensional.

Great quarterbacking certainly gives teams an edge. But ultimately the productivity of even a great QB will be impaired by lack of talent around him, especially at the skill positions. Look at when McNabb was here, when our defense was relatively "average." 3 to 4 losses every year.

And also consider how great WRs can make average throwing QBs better: see: McNabb's freshman year, when he played with Marvin Harrison.

The truism you're espousing works both ways.

Joe Flacco is a perfect example of what you're saying. Last season, coming off a career year and Super Bowl MVP, he lost 2 favorite receiving targets (Boldin and Pitta), and the Ravens running game tanked (due to Ray Rice being injured and poor OL play). As a result, his QBR and touchdowns thrown were the lowest since his rookie year, his passer rating was a career low, he as sacked a career-high 48 times, and he threw a career high 22 INTs.

 

[SmilinBob]

This is why Hunt's ability to run is important, lack of elite talent around him. That said I still think this team has talent and a solid system offensively would show that.

 

[RF2044]

This is why Hunt's ability to run is important, lack of elite talent around him. That said I still think this team has talent and a solid system offensively would show that.

We see what we want to see. Those who are anti-McDonald focus their frustration on coaching. Those who are anti-Hunt lay the blame on the QB. Others point to lack of explosive skilled playmakers as the root cause. When in actuality, it is a little bit of all three.

 

[TheCusian]

We see what we want to see. Those who are anti-McDonald focus their frustration on coaching. Those who are anti-Hunt lay the blame on the QB. Others point to lack of explosive skilled playmakers as the root cause. When in actuality, it is a little bit of all three.

And when we win... It all quiets to a dull murmur. Lose? Everyone must go!

 

[billsin01]

I've never suggested pulling the plug on Hunt or that he's not the most viable option currently on the roster. All I've stated is that he's an above average runner and a below average to average passer. Being the best option on our roster doesn't mean he's good. Because Nassib figured it out doesn't mean Hunt will. For every Nassib we have a RJ Anderson, Andrew Robinson, Troy Nunes, Cam Dantley, Perry Patterson etc. all had their moments, none were good college QB's. Hunt has shown flashes, but then again I hit a few decent shots in a round of golf but that doesn't make me a good golfer. What we are being treated too right now is average, at best, qb play. Let's just call it what it is. My only issue is with fans trying to tell me what I'm watching is something that it isn't. I don't mean to come off as negative defending this point but that's really the only point I'm trying to make. So lets keep running Hunt out there and hope he proves me wrong- nothing would make me happier.

The only issue I would raise with the post is that, to me, I wouldn't put Hunt in the group with any of the Qbs above. Nassib could be a comp but everyone else on that list was in a constant struggle to reach adequate. Nunes and dantley had major physical shortcomings, anderson and Patterson weren't very mobile and struggled to find any consistency as passers and Robinson fell victim to some sort of horrendous coaching and ended up at TE. Hunt has done far more than anyone outside of maybe nunes on the list and he has flashed considerable more upside than nunes, IMO.

But, ultimately, yes I'd say hunt has been average in almost every way.

 

[Millhouse]

Building on my point above, let's consider the top three QBs in program history--Don McPherson, Marvin Graves, and Donovan McNabb--and apply some of the "objective" logic you've expressed throughout this thread. First up, Donny Mac:

Season Completion %
1984 37.9%
1985 53.5%
1986 52.8%
1987 56.3%

Here's the team record over those years:
1984 6-5
1985 7-5
1986 5-6
1987 11-0-1

I can only imagine what you would have said in 84, 85, and 86 about how the fanbase "deserves" something more than 8 wins. By your criteria, you also would have been slamming him for his inability to accurately pass, and the fact that we weren't winning. Forget about 8 wins. You would have kicked him to the curb before his senior year... and then blasted him for being an inaccurate passer en route to an undefeated season.

Now for Marvin Graves--who I legitimately believe might be the pound-for-pound best passer in program history. Let's see what the numbers say:

Season Completion %
1990 57.5%
1991 59.3%
1992 60.3%
1993 61.1%

Here's the team record over those years:
1990 7-4-2 [GASP!!!]
1991 10-2
1992 10-2
1993 6-4-1

Again, I can picture the narrative: the guy showed promise early, but failed to progress much as a passer. And look at how many ties he had! And look at how the team tanked his senior year! Forget 8 wins--the fanbase deserves more than 7 / 6 wins! Perhaps most surprising is that Graves never had a higher completion % than what Hunt had last year, in his first year as a starter [despite Hunt's mid-season struggles]. Pretty eye opening, isn't it?

Last but not least, the lightning rod himself--Donovan McNabb:

Season Completion %
1995 61.8%
1996 54.9%
1997 54.7%
1998 62.5%

Here's the team record over those years:
1995 9-3
1996 9-3
1997 9-4
1998 8-4

And look at all those losses every year, tainting Donovan's accomplishments.


The best completion percentage from the elite QBs mentioned above--and this is the TOP completion % for those 12 years, just to be clear--was 62.5%--and that was with these guys throwing to some of the BEST wide receivers in program history. Rob Moore. Qadry Ismail. Rob Carpenter. Tommy Kane. Marvin Harrison. Kevin Johnson.

Compare them to the lackluster talent at WR Hunt is working with.

For the record, here are Hunt's completion percentages for the two seasons he's been a starter. As you'll see, his completion percentage matches up favorably with the top QBs in program history, despite your insistence that he stinks:

2013 61.2%
2014 58.7%

And that 2014 number is skewed downward based upon last game, with a limited set of overall data since we're only 3 games into what will hopefully be a 13 game season. It will normalize over the course of the season, and likely eclipse 62% or so by seasons end.

Note--I didn't bother including total yards or TDs, or even yards per attempt as the game has evolved and become more short passing oriented in the last decade, which makes it pointless to compare on those criteria. I'm not suggesting that completion % is the only way to compare QBs, I'm just focusing on that since you seem so focused on how Hunt isn't a passer.

Now, let's consider your "more than 8 wins or bust" argument. Just for the record, those are 12 of the best quarterbacked years in program history. We got 10 or more wins 3 times, during arguably the best sustained era of Syracuse football. Please keep in mind that two of these came during the Graves era, when we were at the absolute PINNACLE of our program having elite caliber talent. We only got 9 or more wins 3 other times. The rest of the years were 8 wins or fewer.

Just for comparative perspective--we also had 7 wins twice, 6 wins twice, and had a losing record mixed in one year.

And in the rest of the program's history, we've only gotten more than 8 wins a handful of times, over more than 125 years of our football program's history. Ben Schwarzwalder accomplished it ONCE, during the 1959 national championship season. Don't take my word for it--see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse_Orange_football

Just to save you some time, here are the years we've gotten 9 or more wins:

1915
1959
1987
1988
1991
1992
1995
1996
1997
2001

Keep in mind that this is across ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE YEARS of program history.

Hopefully this proves my point. Us getting to more than 8 wins historically is NOT the norm, it is the exception. And while all fans on this site would love for the program to get there consistently, it isn't what we "deserve" as a fanbase--it's what we aspire to. And it will be difficult to attain that, given that we are still overcoming the nadir of our program, which bottomed out 5 short seasons ago. We're just getting to the point now where our facilities are coming up to where they aren't placing us at a disadvantage, we still lack skill players who are elite athletes, and yet we've won two straight bowls and are angling for a third. Which is why I don't view 7 or 8 win seasons as being indicative of failure or mediocrity as you've labeled it--it is a step along the path toward more consistent, sustainable program success.

Nobody is claiming that Hunt [or Nassib before him] is an elite all american, nor necessarily some top flight NFL prospects. But his production / capabilities are fine [and partially a function of limited playmaking talent around him]. It is your perspective about what constitutes acceptable performance--both at the program level and in terms of the QB--that is out of whack with historical fact.

it's a different sport than it was back then. graves threw so many interceptions back then. completion % is a lousy comparison because back then there were so many homeruns

mcpherson had 10 yards per attempt in 87. at least 2 yards per attempt for his career. graves has 9 ypa.

at some point i compared all these guys to their peers in qb rating. those guys were way up there. their ratings rankings vs their peers were amazing. we should've thrown more.

http://syracusefan.com/threads/hunt-nassib.57720/page-3#post-749392

put any of those guys in a modern spread offense in shotgun all day and they'd put up Texas A&M numbers blowing hunt out of the water.

i want a time machine

 

[Statesman1]

The only issue I would raise with the post is that, to me, I wouldn't put Hunt in the group with any of the Qbs above. Nassib could be a comp but everyone else on that list was in a constant struggle to reach adequate. Nunes and dantley had major physical shortcomings, anderson and Patterson weren't very mobile and struggled to find any consistency as passers and Robinson fell victim to some sort of horrendous coaching and ended up at TE. Hunt has done far more than anyone outside of maybe nunes on the list and he has flashed considerable more upside than nunes, IMO.

But, ultimately, yes I'd say hunt has been average in almost every way.

Fair point- i agree with your assessment except for Robinson. I always viewed him as a very limited qb physically.

 

[Statesman1]

Building on my point above, let's consider the top three QBs in program history--Don McPherson, Marvin Graves, and Donovan McNabb--and apply some of the "objective" logic you've expressed throughout this thread. First up, Donny Mac:

Season Completion %
1984 37.9%
1985 53.5%
1986 52.8%
1987 56.3%

Here's the team record over those years:
1984 6-5
1985 7-5
1986 5-6
1987 11-0-1

I can only imagine what you would have said in 84, 85, and 86 about how the fanbase "deserves" something more than 8 wins. By your criteria, you also would have been slamming him for his inability to accurately pass, and the fact that we weren't winning. Forget about 8 wins. You would have kicked him to the curb before his senior year... and then blasted him for being an inaccurate passer en route to an undefeated season.

Now for Marvin Graves--who I legitimately believe might be the pound-for-pound best passer in program history. Let's see what the numbers say:

Season Completion %
1990 57.5%
1991 59.3%
1992 60.3%
1993 61.1%

Here's the team record over those years:
1990 7-4-2 [GASP!!!]
1991 10-2
1992 10-2
1993 6-4-1

Again, I can picture the narrative: the guy showed promise early, but failed to progress much as a passer. And look at how many ties he had! And look at how the team tanked his senior year! Forget 8 wins--the fanbase deserves more than 7 / 6 wins! Perhaps most surprising is that Graves never had a higher completion % than what Hunt had last year, in his first year as a starter [despite Hunt's mid-season struggles]. Pretty eye opening, isn't it?

Last but not least, the lightning rod himself--Donovan McNabb:

Season Completion %
1995 61.8%
1996 54.9%
1997 54.7%
1998 62.5%

Here's the team record over those years:
1995 9-3
1996 9-3
1997 9-4
1998 8-4

And look at all those losses every year, tainting Donovan's accomplishments.


The best completion percentage from the elite QBs mentioned above--and this is the TOP completion % for those 12 years, just to be clear--was 62.5%--and that was with these guys throwing to some of the BEST wide receivers in program history. Rob Moore. Qadry Ismail. Rob Carpenter. Tommy Kane. Marvin Harrison. Kevin Johnson.

Compare them to the lackluster talent at WR Hunt is working with.

For the record, here are Hunt's completion percentages for the two seasons he's been a starter. As you'll see, his completion percentage matches up favorably with the top QBs in program history, despite your insistence that he stinks:

2013 61.2%
2014 58.7%

And that 2014 number is skewed downward based upon last game, with a limited set of overall data since we're only 3 games into what will hopefully be a 13 game season. It will normalize over the course of the season, and likely eclipse 62% or so by seasons end.

Note--I didn't bother including total yards or TDs, or even yards per attempt as the game has evolved and become more short passing oriented in the last decade, which makes it pointless to compare on those criteria. I'm not suggesting that completion % is the only way to compare QBs, I'm just focusing on that since you seem so focused on how Hunt isn't a passer.

Now, let's consider your "more than 8 wins or bust" argument. Just for the record, those are 12 of the best quarterbacked years in program history. We got 10 or more wins 3 times, during arguably the best sustained era of Syracuse football. Please keep in mind that two of these came during the Graves era, when we were at the absolute PINNACLE of our program having elite caliber talent. We only got 9 or more wins 3 other times. The rest of the years were 8 wins or fewer.

Just for comparative perspective--we also had 7 wins twice, 6 wins twice, and had a losing record mixed in one year.

And in the rest of the program's history, we've only gotten more than 8 wins a handful of times, over more than 125 years of our football program's history. Ben Schwarzwalder accomplished it ONCE, during the 1959 national championship season. Don't take my word for it--see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse_Orange_football

Just to save you some time, here are the years we've gotten 9 or more wins:

1915
1959
1987
1988
1991
1992
1995
1996
1997
2001

Keep in mind that this is across ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE YEARS of program history.

Hopefully this proves my point. Us getting to more than 8 wins historically is NOT the norm, it is the exception. And while all fans on this site would love for the program to get there consistently, it isn't what we "deserve" as a fanbase--it's what we aspire to. And it will be difficult to attain that, given that we are still overcoming the nadir of our program, which bottomed out 5 short seasons ago. We're just getting to the point now where our facilities are coming up to where they aren't placing us at a disadvantage, we still lack skill players who are elite athletes, and yet we've won two straight bowls and are angling for a third. Which is why I don't view 7 or 8 win seasons as being indicative of failure or mediocrity as you've labeled it--it is a step along the path toward more consistent, sustainable program success.

Nobody is claiming that Hunt [or Nassib before him] is an elite all american, nor necessarily some top flight NFL prospects. But his production / capabilities are fine [and partially a function of limited playmaking talent around him]. It is your perspective about what constitutes acceptable performance--both at the program level and in terms of the QB--that is out of whack with historical fact.

I appreciate your copy and paste skills but I think it is problematic to compare players from different eras. As you recall, McNabb and McPherson received Heisman votes and were widely regarded as among the elite players at their position in the country during their time by folks outside our community- Graves was no slouch either. Instead of putting up difficult and unfair comparisons from a bygone era, I suggest it is more relevant to compare a player to his contemporaries. Hunt is currently in the basement of the ACC, ranked 14/16- hardly elite and really not even really adequate. The ESPN rankings have Hunt at 60/126- barely in the top half. Granted we're three games into the season, and stats certainly don't tell the whole story, but I'm not sure what you're seeing that screams anything other than average. He has as many pick sixes as td passes with victories over two weak opponents and a home loss to a depleted and very ordinary Maryland team. To me, we're looking at a qb who has some physical tools that would seem to indicate potential to be better than what he has shown. Unfortunately, so far Hunt has been unable to provide any evidence that he is more than an average player with average stats compared to his peer group.

 

[RF2044]

I appreciate your copy and paste skills but I think it is problematic to compare players from different eras. As you recall, McNabb and McPherson received Heisman votes and were widely regarded as among the elite players at their position in the country during their time by folks outside our community- Graves was no slouch either. Instead of putting up difficult and unfair comparisons from a bygone era, I suggest it is more relevant to compare a player to his contemporaries. Hunt is currently in the basement of the ACC, ranked 14/16- hardly elite and really not even really adequate. The ESPN rankings have Hunt at 60/126- barely in the top half. Granted we're three games into the season, and stats certainly don't tell the whole story, but I'm not sure what you're seeing that screams anything other than average. He has as many pick sixes as td passes with victories over two weak opponents and a home loss to a depleted and very ordinary Maryland team. To me, we're looking at a qb who has some physical tools that would seem to indicate potential to be better than what he has shown. Unfortunately, so far Hunt has been unable to provide any evidence that he is more than an average player with average stats compared to his peer group.

Nothing to say about your 8+ win proclamation, eh? Not surprised.

In every dialogue, there comes a time to disengage. I think this is that time. I'll chalk this one up to "you can lead a horse to water..." and agree to disagree on BOTH counts.

One parting thought: a few years ago, we had a thread about how Nassib was the worst QB in program history. When its all said and done, I'd guess that this thread will be perceived similarly.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Building on my point above, let's consider the top three QBs in program history--Don McPherson, Marvin Graves, and Donovan McNabb--and apply some of the "objective" logic you've expressed throughout this thread. First up, Donny Mac:

Season Completion %
1984 37.9%
1985 53.5%
1986 52.8%
1987 56.3%

Here's the team record over those years:
1984 6-5
1985 7-5
1986 5-6
1987 11-0-1

I can only imagine what you would have said in 84, 85, and 86 about how the fanbase "deserves" something more than 8 wins. By your criteria, you also would have been slamming him for his inability to accurately pass, and the fact that we weren't winning. Forget about 8 wins. You would have kicked him to the curb before his senior year... and then blasted him for being an inaccurate passer en route to an undefeated season.

Now for Marvin Graves--who I legitimately believe might be the pound-for-pound best passer in program history. Let's see what the numbers say:

Season Completion %
1990 57.5%
1991 59.3%
1992 60.3%
1993 61.1%

Here's the team record over those years:
1990 7-4-2 [GASP!!!]
1991 10-2
1992 10-2
1993 6-4-1

Again, I can picture the narrative: the guy showed promise early, but failed to progress much as a passer. And look at how many ties he had! And look at how the team tanked his senior year! Forget 8 wins--the fanbase deserves more than 7 / 6 wins! Perhaps most surprising is that Graves never had a higher completion % than what Hunt had last year, in his first year as a starter [despite Hunt's mid-season struggles]. Pretty eye opening, isn't it?

Last but not least, the lightning rod himself--Donovan McNabb:

Season Completion %
1995 61.8%
1996 54.9%
1997 54.7%
1998 62.5%

Here's the team record over those years:
1995 9-3
1996 9-3
1997 9-4
1998 8-4

And look at all those losses every year, tainting Donovan's accomplishments.


The best completion percentage from the elite QBs mentioned above--and this is the TOP completion % for those 12 years, just to be clear--was 62.5%--and that was with these guys throwing to some of the BEST wide receivers in program history. Rob Moore. Qadry Ismail. Rob Carpenter. Tommy Kane. Marvin Harrison. Kevin Johnson.

Compare them to the lackluster talent at WR Hunt is working with.

For the record, here are Hunt's completion percentages for the two seasons he's been a starter. As you'll see, his completion percentage matches up favorably with the top QBs in program history, despite your insistence that he stinks:

2013 61.2%
2014 58.7%

And that 2014 number is skewed downward based upon last game, with a limited set of overall data since we're only 3 games into what will hopefully be a 13 game season. It will normalize over the course of the season, and likely eclipse 62% or so by seasons end.

Note--I didn't bother including total yards or TDs, or even yards per attempt as the game has evolved and become more short passing oriented in the last decade, which makes it pointless to compare on those criteria. I'm not suggesting that completion % is the only way to compare QBs, I'm just focusing on that since you seem so focused on how Hunt isn't a passer.

Now, let's consider your "more than 8 wins or bust" argument. Just for the record, those are 12 of the best quarterbacked years in program history. We got 10 or more wins 3 times, during arguably the best sustained era of Syracuse football. Please keep in mind that two of these came during the Graves era, when we were at the absolute PINNACLE of our program having elite caliber talent. We only got 9 or more wins 3 other times. The rest of the years were 8 wins or fewer.

Just for comparative perspective--we also had 7 wins twice, 6 wins twice, and had a losing record mixed in one year.

And in the rest of the program's history, we've only gotten more than 8 wins a handful of times, over more than 125 years of our football program's history. Ben Schwarzwalder accomplished it ONCE, during the 1959 national championship season. Don't take my word for it--see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse_Orange_football

Just to save you some time, here are the years we've gotten 9 or more wins:

1915
1959
1987
1988
1991
1992
1995
1996
1997
2001

Keep in mind that this is across ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE YEARS of program history.

Hopefully this proves my point. Us getting to more than 8 wins historically is NOT the norm, it is the exception. And while all fans on this site would love for the program to get there consistently, it isn't what we "deserve" as a fanbase--it's what we aspire to. And it will be difficult to attain that, given that we are still overcoming the nadir of our program, which bottomed out 5 short seasons ago. We're just getting to the point now where our facilities are coming up to where they aren't placing us at a disadvantage, we still lack skill players who are elite athletes, and yet we've won two straight bowls and are angling for a third. Which is why I don't view 7 or 8 win seasons as being indicative of failure or mediocrity as you've labeled it--it is a step along the path toward more consistent, sustainable program success.

Nobody is claiming that Hunt [or Nassib before him] is an elite all american, nor necessarily some top flight NFL prospects. But his production / capabilities are fine [and partially a function of limited playmaking talent around him]. It is your perspective about what constitutes acceptable performance--both at the program level and in terms of the QB--that is out of whack with historical fact.

Solid post RF, only difference in eras is the number of nimrods on the internet overanalyzing things! I include myself in that category before anyone gets their BVD's in a knot

 

[Statesman1]

It is much easier--and simpler--to point to one root cause, when in actuality the problem is multi-dimensional.

Great quarterbacking certainly gives teams an edge. But ultimately the productivity of even a great QB will be impaired by lack of talent around him, especially at the skill positions. Look at when McNabb was here, when our defense was relatively "average." 3 to 4 losses every year.

And also consider how great WRs can make average throwing QBs better: see: McNabb's freshman year, when he played with Marvin Harrison.

The truism you're espousing works both ways.

Let's not kid ourselves- the most important position on the field by far is the qb. He handles the ball

Nothing to say about your 8+ win proclamation, eh? Not surprised.

In every dialogue, there comes a time to disengage. I think this is that time. I'll chalk this one up to "you can lead a horse to water..." and agree to disagree on BOTH counts.

One parting thought: a few years ago, we had a thread about how Nassib was the worst QB in program history. When its all said and done, I'd guess that this thread will be perceived similarly.

Nothing to say about your 8+ win proclamation, eh? Not surprised.

In every dialogue, there comes a time to disengage. I think this is that time. I'll chalk this one up to "you can lead a horse to water..." and agree to disagree on BOTH counts.

One parting thought: a few years ago, we had a thread about how Nassib was the worst QB in program history. When its all said and done, I'd guess that this thread will be perceived similarly.

My eight win proclamation? Dude you need to get a grip- I've not suggested Hunt was the worst qb in program history, nor do I think 8 win seasons should be something that we not only aspire to but actually achieve on a more regular basis than once every four years. All I've stated is that Hint is average. Perhaps I simply have higher standards than you, but it is definitely time to disengage.