I am seriously tired of the SEC...

[TheCusian]

The underlying theme of this thread is Syracuse football will never be able to get up there. I've been roundly beaten by people who tell me major college football is a non sequitur in New England. Well they have 3 very, very strong coaches over there in Brown, Mora and Hafley plus multiple strong FCS teams, just watch the resurgence happen. This gambit JW is playing better work or Orange football will be left in the dust.

This has nothing to do with what I said

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

I'm content with our standing in football. We can have a year like Pitt or Wake did at any moment. Clemson won head to head w Bama twice in the playoffs and we play them tough every year.

I seriously want the ACC to stop losing EVERY SINGLE GAME against freaking Notre Dame though. Its beyond pathetic and drives me insane how noone can pull a win off against them yet Cincinatti blew them out at their place. I think we will beat them in the Dome next year.

I wonder what the SEC will look like when OU and Texas join. Hopefully they have pods. The ACC needs to do the same it would sure be nice to actually play a home game against Miami again.

 

[Atlcuse44]

I don't have an issue with the SEC but would love someone to knock out Bama. Until Saban retires, that will be a tough task. The SEC will always have an advantage due to being in a recruiting hot-bed. I can see Lincoln Riley making USC a playoff team soon and Ohio St isn't going anywhere (I think they would have given UGA a better game than UM). Problem is - who else can step up? As we saw, Michigan is not ready, same for Mich St and Ped St. Clemson seems to have taken a step back and I don't see FSU being a playoff team anytime soon. Maybe Cristobal can get Miami going again.

 

[Wrinkle]

The SEC is top heavy.
The entire conference is not Georgia or Alabama.

Outside of those 2 teams and LSU/Auburn/Florida the rest of the conference is just like college football.

Alabama has the best college football coach of all-time. Which is a cheat code. Alabama will take a step back when he retires.

Bluebloods have run college football forever.
USC in the 00s
Nebraska/Florida State in the 90s
Miami in the 80s.

The SEC as a whole is not running college football it’s Alabama and Georgia are good.

Outside of 5 teams the conference is like any other?

 

[RMH44]

Here is my take from this "discussion": No one, and I mean NO ONE, can hijack a thread like our very own CousCuse aka The Shanghai Express.

 

[Hoo's That]

{snip} But who can compete with Alabama, Georgia and Clemson when they would rather divert hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to football salaries than provide basic government services (like education). Remember the Clemson game in the Dome this October? There were more Tiger assistants than players on the field. Its recruiting staff is almost certainly gigantic, and it has to be to compete with lazy rivers and legions of staff at other SEC schools. If these structural disparities aren't enough, the portal has exploded and the NCAA has tossed the reins on NIL/booster money. Every time it moves away from amateurism the corruption gets more brazen.

{snip}

While it may have made you fell better to post that, it just plain isn't true. Those states have laws which prohibit tax money from going to athletics. They keep saying Saban is the highest paid state employee in Alabama. Well, he only receives $100K from the state (so he's an employee of the university and the president of Bama can fire him if necessary) and the rest of the $7MM comes from donors. It's a state budget line item that was revealed by a newspaper from info in a state Freedom of Information release. I would imagine there's a similar set-up for Brian Harsin at Auburn. If you were an Auburn fan you would not want one dime of state money going toward building a player pleasure dome for Bama and vice versa. Same holds true for Georgia (Georgia Tech) and Clemson (South Carolina); that's why those laws are on the books. Bear Bryant was given state trooper protection by the legislature because he was being mobbed on the field after games. The Auburn fans got into a lather about it and forced the legislature to give trooper protection to Shug Jordan as well.

Donors fund everything at those schools. And, in most cases, they are more willing to give money to football than to the academic side of the house. It got to the point that Auburn nearly lost is accreditation because an athletic megadonor on their Board of Trustees was orchestrating so many other things, including, IIRC, getting the president fired.

 

[Briancuse]

I don't have an issue with the SEC but would love someone to knock out Bama. Until Saban retires, that will be a tough task. The SEC will always have an advantage due to being in a recruiting hot-bed. I can see Lincoln Riley making USC a playoff team soon and Ohio St isn't going anywhere (I think they would have given UGA a better game than UM). Problem is - who else can step up? As we saw, Michigan is not ready, same for Mich St and Ped St. Clemson seems to have taken a step back and I don't see FSU being a playoff team anytime soon. Maybe Cristobal can get Miami going again.

I think it's usc with Riley out west and Michigan up north. This was a breakthrough year for Harbaugh he's recruiting at a really high level.

 

[Hoo's That]

UNC had the top ACC football recruiting class during the early signing period.
There were in the top 10.
UNC can and should be a consistent top 25 football team.

They have a way better chance than Syracuse to be good year in year out.

Their history is basketball and always will be. They have never, and will never be a consistently good football program.
We have been good and will be again, I've been around a long time, seen the good and bad. The wheel spins and always comes back around. North Carolina is a never was, and never will be.
This is the first time in about 20 years the University has shown they care about football, hiring good coaches makes a big difference at a school like ours.

The University of North Carolina - 1980 ACC Football Champions

Yeah, that's the last time they won it.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I take no pleasure in saying that it’s just using common sense.
Rutgers has enough talent in NJ that if they could get their chit together could come be competitive but that school will never get chit to be good enough.

We need NYS HS FB to product a lot more P5 talent.

It’s not going to happen in NY State.

 

[0.2 YNdeeR]

While it may have made you fell better to post that, it just plain isn't true. Those states have laws which prohibit tax money from going to athletics. They keep saying Saban is the highest paid state employee in Alabama. Well, he only receives $100K from the state (so he's an employee of the university and the president of Bama can fire him if necessary) and the rest of the $7MM comes from donors. It's a state budget line item that was revealed by a newspaper from info in a state Freedom of Information release. I would imagine there's a similar set-up for Brian Harsin at Auburn. If you were an Auburn fan you would not want one dime of state money going toward building a player pleasure dome for Bama and vice versa. Same holds true for Georgia (Georgia Tech) and Clemson (South Carolina); that's why those laws are on the books. Bear Bryant was given state trooper protection by the legislature because he was being mobbed on the field after games. The Auburn fans got into a lather about it and forced the legislature to give trooper protection to Shug Jordan as well.

Donors fund everything at those schools. And, in most cases, they are more willing to give money to football than to the academic side of the house. It got to the point that Auburn nearly lost is accreditation because an athletic megadonor on their Board of Trustees was orchestrating so many other things, including, IIRC, getting the president fired.

WIth respect (nothing personal) I don't agree. To frame the discussion properly, we should recognize two separate issues: 1) public financing of athletic budgets at factory schools and its impact on other services (a complex set of fiscal controversies well beyond a fan site); and 2) wide disparities in CFB athletic budgets and staffing. Obviously, my post was directed at the latter regardless of the debate over taxpayer contributions.

As to your reply, I never said there isn't private money in the mix, or that accounting tricks aren't used. As you can see from the links below, Auburn's budget is $150+M of which $63M represents an aggregate of private donations and tickets sales. If that is a 50/50 split, even with SEC TV revenue it is clear that tons of public money is still being pumped into athletic expenses and/or debt at Auburn, as it is according to reports at 'Bama, UG, Clemson and the like (Texas A&M is well over #200M). We could pour over EADA disclosures, but these are publicly funded (mostly land-grant) universities. If as you claim there are "laws" preventing tax money from going to football, I'd love to see the links (or you could DM me). There's no reporting that I've seen about fiscal constraints, and if there are any in place there's little evidence they're doing any good. No one is denying that donors are active (they bought Sabin's $3M house) in the SEC, B1G (UM, PSt. OSU, etc) and elsewhere. It's their right. But there's a wide body of reporting that athletic spending at a few factory schools in southern states and a few B1G schools is out of control - which is why Clemson had 40-50 assistants in the Dome last October and the factories continue to deploy legions of 'assistants', analysts and other personnel to get around porous NCAA rules. As a direct result of these staffing and funding disparities, D-1 football is becoming an oligarchy that is destroying parity and alienating many fans - exactly the point of the OP.

Regarding the broader issue of public financing of athletics in the South, there is too much ground to cover here. Briefly, I believe the 1996 law you mentioned (in Alabama) only limits Sabin's pension not the Bama athletic budget (considerably larger than FSU's, the top-spending ACC school). There may be other laws I'm not aware of, and I'll take your word that there's a line-item/donor contribution to fund Sabin's salary. Nonetheless, plus or minus booster money, TV revenue and ticket sales, etc., 'Bama's annual athletic budget is in the range of $164 million, on top of $225M in financing bonds, payroll for all the personnel, payments to the state retirement system, the costs of computers, maintenance, transportation, utilities and other infrastructure all of which is likely publicly guaranteed, publicly funded or both. And (as an aside) this is a state where the pension system is $16B in the red and public education ranks at or near the bottom in the US. To be fair, many projects are funded by private donations. Also the SEC's TV contract (as one example) is huge. And there are Universities (G-Tech is one, UVA is likely another) that don't engage in profligate spending or try to charge their own students (Clemson). But those exceptions don't change the reality that in Alabama, South Carolina, Georgia and other southern states, there are legacy issues with public funding of education and other government services while factory schools engage in lavish athletic spending in order to dominate CFB. Even apart from the regrettable impact on other public services, these disparities are a major factor in the loss of party in FBS, which is a legitimate point of criticism.

UGA’s record $143 million athletics budget includes eye-popping expenditures

GREENSBORO — The Georgia Athletic Association board of directors approved a record $143.3 million budget on Friday. And it’s a good thing, because costs are going through the roof, particularly when it comes to football.

www.dawgnation.com

[NYU study]:

Although Alabama makes an effort to dedicate a high proportion of its fiscal capacity to its education system, as a state it still provides a below‑average amount of funding to its public education system.67 Compared to the rest of the nation, southeastern states have a history of providing less funding to K–12 public education.68 Even among the southeastern states, K–12 public education in Alabama has historically been among the worst funded.69 This stems in large part from intentional acts to ensure disenfranchisement of Alabama’s black and poor citizens.

Education in Alabama: A Privilege or Right? What Alabama’s Tax Decisions Reveal About Historical and Intentional K‑12 Education Disenfranchisement, and the Unlikelihood of Poor Alabamians Ever Receiving a Proper Education | N.Y.U. Review of Law & Soc

Akiesha Anderson∞ “Today, education is perhaps the most important function of state and local governments. . . . [I]t is doubtful that any child may reasonably be expected to succeed in life if .

socialchangenyu.com

Alabama's athletic department records $21.2 million deficit in 2019 fiscal year

Alabama's athletic department clarified its $21.2 million deficit in 2019 was the result of a change in how it qualified the revenue gained from "donations" for the school's priority seating program following a 2018 change in Alabama's tax law.

www.montgomeryadvertiser.com

Donations, ticket sales accounts for $63 million of Auburn athletics budget

Auburn University athletic director Allen Greene on Saturday addressed Auburn football boosters and season ticket holders in an email message after the

www.alreporter.com

College football's highest-paid coaches earn millions, fly private at taxpayer-funded public universities

Dabo Swinney, who led Clemson to two national titles in the last three seasons, outpaces all other college football coaches with $9.32 million in total pay.

www.yahoo.com

South Carolina Taxpayers Lose on Clemson Tigers’ Salaries for Coaches - The Heartland Institute

Coaches at state universities earn high salaries and pension benefits

www.heartland.org

NEWS: New budget keeps underfunding education by hundreds of millions – Statehouse Report

www.statehousereport.com

Coach Nick Saban Could Get a Huge Pension, Courtesy of Alabama Taxpayers

America's highest paid public employee might win another college football national title, but he's also a good argument for pension reform.

reason.com

Do Colleges Make Money From Athletics? | BestColleges

Although college sports play a big role in bringing in money for universities, they rarely generate a positive net revenue.

www.bestcolleges.com

Size of support staffs gives Power Five teams big edge

Size of their support staffs gives Power Five programs major edge in scouting, recruiting

www.usatoday.com

 

[Bayside44]

While it may have made you fell better to post that, it just plain isn't true. Those states have laws which prohibit tax money from going to athletics. They keep saying Saban is the highest paid state employee in Alabama. Well, he only receives $100K from the state (so he's an employee of the university and the president of Bama can fire him if necessary) and the rest of the $7MM comes from donors. It's a state budget line item that was revealed by a newspaper from info in a state Freedom of Information release. I would imagine there's a similar set-up for Brian Harsin at Auburn. If you were an Auburn fan you would not want one dime of state money going toward building a player pleasure dome for Bama and vice versa. Same holds true for Georgia (Georgia Tech) and Clemson (South Carolina); that's why those laws are on the books. Bear Bryant was given state trooper protection by the legislature because he was being mobbed on the field after games. The Auburn fans got into a lather about it and forced the legislature to give trooper protection to Shug Jordan as well.

Donors fund everything at those schools. And, in most cases, they are more willing to give money to football than to the academic side of the house. It got to the point that Auburn nearly lost is accreditation because an athletic megadonor on their Board of Trustees was orchestrating so many other things, including, IIRC, getting the president fired.

Good post.

 

[721Comstock]

The University of North Carolina - 1980 ACC Football Champions

Yeah, that's the last time they won it.

Was that when LT was there?

 

[WoadBlue]

Was that when LT was there?

Yes. The team finished 11-1 with an Astro-Bluebonnet Bowl win over Texas. In 1981, the Tar Heels finished 10-2, second in the ACC behind National Champ Clemson.

”…..the connecticut river rivalry…”

Are you for real? Umass and Uconn are racing to see who drops football first.

Both need to drop to FCS/1AA.

 

[Hoo's That]

Was that when LT was there?

I think WoadBlue said it was.

 

[TheCusian]

If you act like football is the most important thing, there are times for programs where you’ll be forced to make decisions that are awful morally and ethically (Penn St, Baylor, etc).

I’m confident that SEC schools are awash with similar decisions.

 

[storange]

If you act like football is the most important thing, there are times for programs where you’ll be forced to make decisions that are awful morally and ethically (Penn St, Baylor, etc).

I’m confident that SEC schools are awash with similar decisions.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all, there were some stories of player behavior (or lack thereof ) in Tallahassee back when they were relevant. Really outrageous stuff.

 

[Lynch1967]

Several people here completely nailed it, it is becoming a regional sport, not much different from hockey. People will watch their team, maybe their conference. I explained my feeling on Twitter yesterday. I watch the FCS playoffs every year, even though NDSU has been winning most every year BUT they earn their spot, they aren't voted in by writers. And they earn that championship by winning games, tough games. UC-UA and UM-UG? Boring. And the final? I will probably keep an eye on the score but I won't watch. I dont care. I'm no SEC fan.

 

[RandomGuy]

I'm sick of they SEC, too, but Clemson was pretty good.

I'd rather an expanded playoff. More chance for upset, more fan bases involved. To heck with the conference championships - unless they are considered part of the playoff, and the loser is eliminated.

 

[Moontan]

I'm sick of they SEC, too, but Clemson was pretty good.

I'd rather an expanded playoff. More chance for upset, more fan bases involved. To heck with the conference championships - unless they are considered part of the playoff, and the loser is eliminated.

8 team playoff:

1. P-5 champions
2. no more than 2 (possibly 3, which the SEC would push for) teams from one conference
3. Top 4 seeds host the first round games (with 10%? of seats available to the visiting team)

 

[baggerbob]

8 team playoff:

1. P-5 champions
2. no more than 2 (possibly 3, which the SEC would push for) teams from one conference
3. Top 4 seeds host the first round games (with 10%? of seats available to the visiting team)

Use the top bowls as the host of the games. No home field advantage. 4 bowls 1st week 2 the second, then have the championship game in Las Vegas every year. That way everyone of the fans can party.

 

[Roger N]

Kentucky beats Iowa. I'm very happy because Iowa had a 4th and 1 from their own 45 with 3mins and change left and chose to punt it away.

I agree. If you can’t make a yard. You don’t belong in the game

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Let the football factories break away from the NCAA and create their own mini-NFL and leave the NCAA championships to the collegiate types - like us!

You mean you want players to go to classes? You want admission standards that don't include bags of money? My god, what are you thinking? But really the SEC has Vanderbilt which is a legitimate educational institution and they also have...ummm ... they all also have... did I mention they have Vanderbilt?

 

[WoadBlue]

Outside of 5 teams the conference is like any other?

No, the SEC is not like any other conference below its top 2-4. The bottom third of the SEC's football teams are better than anybody else's bottom third. I don't like that fact, but denying would make me a fool.

What is scary is that being being so much bigger than basketball means that the SEC has the money and league media domination to invest not merely to become as good in basketball as any league, but even to expand its non-revenue sports. SEC administrators know what lacrosse suggests, and my bet is that they already are planning long range to play D1 lacrosse.

 

[WoadBlue]

Several people here completely nailed it, it is becoming a regional sport, not much different from hockey. People will watch their team, maybe their conference. I explained my feeling on Twitter yesterday. I watch the FCS playoffs every year, even though NDSU has been winning most every year BUT they earn their spot, they aren't voted in by writers. And they earn that championship by winning games, tough games. UC-UA and UM-UG? Boring. And the final? I will probably keep an eye on the score but I won't watch. I dont care. I'm no SEC fan.

There is a huge difference between hockey as a regional sport and CFB as a regional sport. College football is worth at least100 times what college hockey is worth.

People outsdde the South also watch CFB regularly and widely. The per capita rate in the midwest is not a high as in the South, but the numbers are basically the same.

The problem for CFB nationally from a Syracuse vantage is that starting no later than the 1970s, people in the northeast began tuning out again, as they had when the Ivy League and Army became small timers. I think a key part of that was that there never had been a Major conference in the region. And by the time anybody began to fear the implications, things were too far gone to ever have a halfway decent and important conference made up of just schools in the northeast. The Big East with only northeastern schools could not have survived to now even if PSU had joined. BE football, to be worth much, required multiple schools outside the northeast: WVU, VT, Miami, Notre Dame.

Starting BE was nothing more than a stop gap to try to save BE basketball.

The fans are just not in the northeast, but that does not mean that CFB has even a slightly less profitable future coming.

 

[Hoo's That]

No, the SEC is not like any other conference below its top 2-4. The bottom third of the SEC's football teams are better than anybody else's bottom third. I don't like that fact, but denying would make me a fool.

What is scary is that being being so much bigger than basketball means that the SEC has the money and league media domination to invest not merely to become as good in basketball as any league, but even to expand its non-revenue sports. SEC administrators know what lacrosse suggests, and my bet is that they already are planning long range to play D1 lacrosse.

For women, yes; for men, probably not. Vandy and Florida have women's lacrosse teams and all of the SEC schools have women's soccer teams (Texas and Oklahoma have women's soccer teams, too) which improve their Title IX position. Adding men's lacrosse hurts Vandy's and Florida's Title IX position and does nothing to improve the other schools' (assuming they start both teams together). If any of them start just a women's team, it's probably a signal that they won't have a men's team. The MCLA is a double-edged sword as far as lacrosse at big-name schools is concerned. It brings lacrosse to Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Missouri, Oklahoma, Ole Miss, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Texas A&M, and Vandy (one edge showing that there are players available), but it does so at no financial or Title IX costs to the athletic departments (the other edge which lets them have their cake and eat it, too).

As a side note to show how lacrosse is spreading, it's very likely that UVa's defensive starters will all be from west of the Mississippi, 2 long poles and the goalie from Texas and a long pole from Minnesota.